Do you have faith?

[todd_days_41]

Do you want to watch Marcus Smart as the third scoring option?

Nope. I want Ainge to go out and find an improvement to everyone currently on this roster as a third leg of that stool. I don't think hoping Kemba will evolve into some other player than he is is the answer. Subtracting Kemba may be very important to that hunt.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

If you don't agree with what I stated I don't know what more proof you need - we play a losing brand of basketball, it literally is the exact opposite of how you're supposed to win games in basketball.

A losing brand of basketball that

*checks notes*

has won 7 playoff series in 6 playoff runs, including three trips to the Eastern Conference Finals.



The Celts have never run the prettiest offense, but last season they had the 5th most efficient offense in the league, all the same.  Under Stevens they've always struggled to get to the free throw line enough, and they often don't take the ball into the paint even when outside shots aren't falling.  Those recurrent themes frustrate me.  But the results are hard to argue against, this year notwithstanding.

Even in years when the offense wasn't the greatest, the Celts have been a very good defensive team.  That's been fairly consistent under Stevens.  This season's team is an outlier in that respect.  They've gone from 4th in defense last year and 6th in defense the year before to 15th in defense this season.

Are they running a different defensive system?  No.  Have they lost any key defensive personnel?  I don't think Hayward or Kanter were particularly crucial on that end.

Issue is that they've had a lot of injuries, they're relying more than ever on a young bench, and their starting point guard is struggling as he returns from a nagging knee injury.

What the results say to me is that Brad's offensive system has proven to be good enough to get the team to the conference finals, but not good enough to get the team beyond that. So, it's a good system, but not a great system. I think that the only way this system gets Boston to a title is if Boston lands a top-5 player (be it Tatum, Brown, or someone else).

[PhoSita]

If you don't agree with what I stated I don't know what more proof you need - we play a losing brand of basketball, it literally is the exact opposite of how you're supposed to win games in basketball.

A losing brand of basketball that

*checks notes*

has won 7 playoff series in 6 playoff runs, including three trips to the Eastern Conference Finals.



The Celts have never run the prettiest offense, but last season they had the 5th most efficient offense in the league, all the same.  Under Stevens they've always struggled to get to the free throw line enough, and they often don't take the ball into the paint even when outside shots aren't falling.  Those recurrent themes frustrate me.  But the results are hard to argue against, this year notwithstanding.

Even in years when the offense wasn't the greatest, the Celts have been a very good defensive team.  That's been fairly consistent under Stevens.  This season's team is an outlier in that respect.  They've gone from 4th in defense last year and 6th in defense the year before to 15th in defense this season.

Are they running a different defensive system?  No.  Have they lost any key defensive personnel?  I don't think Hayward or Kanter were particularly crucial on that end.

Issue is that they've had a lot of injuries, they're relying more than ever on a young bench, and their starting point guard is struggling as he returns from a nagging knee injury.

What the results say to me is that Brad's offensive system has proven to be good enough to get the team to the conference finals, but not good enough to get the team beyond that. So, it's a good system, but not a great system. I think that the only way this system gets Boston to a title is if Boston lands a top-5 player (be it Tatum, Brown, or someone else).

My feeling is that the only time the Celts have lost a playoff series under Stevens when they were arguably the more talented team was this past summer against the Heat.

In that series, I felt that the downfall of the team was their late game execution.  They were in those games.  In fact a lot of the time they had leads at half or heading into the 4th.  They just got outplayed in the fourth quarter over and over.


Brad takes a hit for that, but then he was going up against a more experienced coach with a title to his name.

Similarly, you have to ding Tatum, Brown, Kemba et al for that.  But they were also going up against a team led by guys with far more playoff experience (Butler, Dragic, Iguodala, even Jae Crowder). 

My takeaway from that defeat was not that the coach or the guys were not good enough to get over that hump eventually.  They needed more time together to improve their late game execution and have the confidence / composure to do a better job the next time around.


Unfortunately so many things are going wrong this season that it feels like they're never really going to have the chance to grow together in the way that is necessary.  And we also have to hope that Kemba's struggles are just short term coming off an injury and not the new normal.  If this version of Kemba really is the new normal then the Celts are up a creek for more than just this season.

[GreenWarrior]

If you don't agree with what I stated I don't know what more proof you need - we play a losing brand of basketball, it literally is the exact opposite of how you're supposed to win games in basketball.

A losing brand of basketball that

*checks notes*

has won 7 playoff series in 6 playoff runs, including three trips to the Eastern Conference Finals.



The Celts have never run the prettiest offense, but last season they had the 5th most efficient offense in the league, all the same.  Under Stevens they've always struggled to get to the free throw line enough, and they often don't take the ball into the paint even when outside shots aren't falling.  Those recurrent themes frustrate me.  But the results are hard to argue against, this year notwithstanding.

Even in years when the offense wasn't the greatest, the Celts have been a very good defensive team.  That's been fairly consistent under Stevens.  This season's team is an outlier in that respect.  They've gone from 4th in defense last year and 6th in defense the year before to 15th in defense this season.

Are they running a different defensive system?  No.  Have they lost any key defensive personnel?  I don't think Hayward or Kanter were particularly crucial on that end.

Issue is that they've had a lot of injuries, they're relying more than ever on a young bench, and their starting point guard is struggling as he returns from a nagging knee injury.

Except look at the way we've been eliminated every season under stevens, it's been because of that offensive philosophy.

[PhoSita]

Except look at the way we've been eliminated every season under stevens, it's been because of that offensive philosophy.

2015 - Lost to LeBron
2016 - Lost to a far more talented / experienced Hawks team
2017 - Lost to LeBron
2018 - Lost to LeBron
2019 - Lost to Giannis
2020 - Lost to Butler / Bam


So ... I see one instance where the straightforward explanation for the team losing was something other than "the other team has by far the best player in the series."


Meanwhile for notable victories:

2017 - Defeated a Wizards team led by John Wall and Brad Beal, which at the time was considered a very talented duo

2018 - Defeated Giannis's Bucks in the first season when Giannis really took a step up to "superstar" level

2018 - Defeated the "next great team" Sixers despite missing Kyrie and Hayward

2019 - Aced the 48 win Pacers in round 1

2020 - Swept the supposedly loaded Sixers (yes they were missing Simmons)

2020 - Beat the 53 win defending champion Raptors in 7



See that to me looks like a pretty good resume for having a "winning" system.

[gouki88]

Except look at the way we've been eliminated every season under stevens, it's been because of that offensive philosophy.

2015 - Lost to LeBron
2016 - Lost to a far more talented / experienced Hawks team
2017 - Lost to LeBron
2018 - Lost to LeBron
2019 - Lost to Giannis
2020 - Lost to Butler / Bam


So ... I see one instance where the straightforward explanation for the team losing was something other than "the other team has by far the best player in the series."


Meanwhile for notable victories:

2017 - Defeated a Wizards team led by John Wall and Brad Beal, which at the time was considered a very talented duo

2018 - Defeated Giannis's Bucks in the first season when Giannis really took a step up to "superstar" level

2018 - Defeated the "next great team" Sixers despite missing Kyrie and Hayward

2019 - Aced the 48 win Pacers in round 1

2020 - Swept the supposedly loaded Sixers (yes they were missing Simmons)

2020 - Beat the 53 win defending champion Raptors in 7



See that to me looks like a pretty good resume for having a "winning" system.

I'm anti-Stevens, but he's obviously instilled a winning system if we're a routine Conference Finalist appearance

[PhoSita]

I'm anti-Stevens, but he's obviously instilled a winning system if we're a routine Conference Finalist appearance

Yeah I mean, he's not the best coach in the league.  I'd rather have Spoelstra or Carlisle.  Nick Nurse is probably better.  Basically it's a list of guys who have won rings already. and are already set up in a good gig they're not likely to want to give up.


Who would people rather have?  Kenny Atkinson?  Dave Joerger?  Sam Cassell?  Kevin McHale?  Jeff Van Gundy?  Brett Brown?


I'm having a hard time thinking of any really great ideas among guys that even might be available.

[tstorey_97]

I understand that injuries may blow up my view, but, I can't predict them anyway.

If you stick up for this team, it just requires lots of excuses, but, the question is about whether they are viable has to be answered. If you want to fire the coach go ahead...keep in mind if you chuck the "tank year" he has a .609 win percentage and a week after you fire him he'll have three offers. Sometimes a new coach can help, I've got that.

All teams have injury problems and thus a stat exists to define the impact of injuries on a given team. (Mangameslost.com)
Lost win shares due to injured players...top 5 in NBA

1.LAC
2.MIA
3.POR
4.BOS
5.MIN

Thus, the team has felt an above average impact from top players missing games due to injuries.

The Celtics changed their starting line up because of these injuries...Thompson/Theis have been the team's front court.

Team is 15-15

Here are the game totals for the 6 Celtics players who would be on the floor for the last 30 seconds of a tie game.

Brown 28
Theis 28
Thompson 28
Tatum 25
Smart 17
Walker 15

This line up with adjustments went 48-24 last season. They killed everybody and their bench was weak and their starting center was Daniel Theis, go look it up.

This season with the "big four" on the court, you will have Thies and Robert coming off the bench which compared to last year is a freaking miracle.

In addition the Celtics have Pritchard whom, despite being very inexperienced I prefer over Wanamaker.

Ok? Robert is looking like your starting center in the playoffs. Stevens has stated that he doesn't want to overuse Robert with respect to the hip as he sees the post season as when the team will need him. Robert looks good and the team did not have "that" last year.

I think, they should be in the ECF again as the east isn't that good, the Celtics don't have to play ALL the top teams in the playoffs and the 76'ers struggle mightily against the Celtics. Have you noticed? The Bucks  are a wild card, the Heat might get it together and the Celtics are a match up issue for the Raptors. This leaves us with the almighty Nets who might but haven't yet become the steam roller the media has predicted.

If injuries wipe them out? Oh well. If the starting 6 plus Robert/Theis are in sync for the playoffs? They're in the finals.

Oh no! What if they're the 8 seed?

If the Celtics have their line up? You are scared of Philly in the first round?

[gouki88]

I'm anti-Stevens, but he's obviously instilled a winning system if we're a routine Conference Finalist appearance

Yeah I mean, he's not the best coach in the league.  I'd rather have Spoelstra or Carlisle.  Nick Nurse is probably better.  Basically it's a list of guys who have won rings already. and are already set up in a good gig they're not likely to want to give up.


Who would people rather have?  Kenny Atkinson?  Dave Joerger?  Sam Cassell?  Kevin McHale?  Jeff Van Gundy?  Brett Brown?


I'm having a hard time thinking of any really great ideas among guys that even might be available.

I'd rather McHale just because I like him personally so much. He was a pretty solid coach at Houston too, but he's so likeable!

I'd consider Will Hardy. He's been everything at the Spurs (video room, summer league, player development, now on the bench), which gives me Spoelstra vibes. He's really young too. Wouldn't mind poaching the heir apparent to the Pop throne.

Would have said Chris Finch a couple of days ago. Charles Lee and Wes Unseld Jr. are two other guys who I think could be good.

What do I know? Nothing. But I feel like Brad will be on the hotseat in the next  18-24 months if results (Finals appearances) don't start to come.

[Celtics2021]

As a response to the OP’s question:

Can I change my username to Celtics2022?

[Moranis]

I'm anti-Stevens, but he's obviously instilled a winning system if we're a routine Conference Finalist appearance

Yeah I mean, he's not the best coach in the league.  I'd rather have Spoelstra or Carlisle.  Nick Nurse is probably better.  Basically it's a list of guys who have won rings already. and are already set up in a good gig they're not likely to want to give up.


Who would people rather have?  Kenny Atkinson?  Dave Joerger?  Sam Cassell?  Kevin McHale?  Jeff Van Gundy?  Brett Brown?


I'm having a hard time thinking of any really great ideas among guys that even might be available.

I'd rather McHale just because I like him personally so much. He was a pretty solid coach at Houston too, but he's so likeable!

I'd consider Will Hardy. He's been everything at the Spurs (video room, summer league, player development, now on the bench), which gives me Spoelstra vibes. He's really young too. Wouldn't mind poaching the heir apparent to the Pop throne.

Would have said Chris Finch a couple of days ago. Charles Lee and Wes Unseld Jr. are two other guys who I think could be good.

What do I know? Nothing. But I feel like Brad will be on the hotseat in the next  18-24 months if results (Finals appearances) don't start to come.

I think Dave Joerger is a fantastic coach, but I have no interest in replacing Stevens.

[gouki88]

I'm anti-Stevens, but he's obviously instilled a winning system if we're a routine Conference Finalist appearance

Yeah I mean, he's not the best coach in the league.  I'd rather have Spoelstra or Carlisle.  Nick Nurse is probably better.  Basically it's a list of guys who have won rings already. and are already set up in a good gig they're not likely to want to give up.


Who would people rather have?  Kenny Atkinson?  Dave Joerger?  Sam Cassell?  Kevin McHale?  Jeff Van Gundy?  Brett Brown?


I'm having a hard time thinking of any really great ideas among guys that even might be available.

I'd rather McHale just because I like him personally so much. He was a pretty solid coach at Houston too, but he's so likeable!

I'd consider Will Hardy. He's been everything at the Spurs (video room, summer league, player development, now on the bench), which gives me Spoelstra vibes. He's really young too. Wouldn't mind poaching the heir apparent to the Pop throne.

Would have said Chris Finch a couple of days ago. Charles Lee and Wes Unseld Jr. are two other guys who I think could be good.

What do I know? Nothing. But I feel like Brad will be on the hotseat in the next  18-24 months if results (Finals appearances) don't start to come.

I think Dave Joerger is a fantastic coach, but I have no interest in replacing Stevens.

He's a good coach from all that I've seen (has often been dealt some really poor rosters). I'm willing to give Stevens until 2022-23, barring some catastrophic failures in roster construction, but I definitely wouldn't be upset to see him go at this stage.

[Moranis]

I'm anti-Stevens, but he's obviously instilled a winning system if we're a routine Conference Finalist appearance

Yeah I mean, he's not the best coach in the league.  I'd rather have Spoelstra or Carlisle.  Nick Nurse is probably better.  Basically it's a list of guys who have won rings already. and are already set up in a good gig they're not likely to want to give up.


Who would people rather have?  Kenny Atkinson?  Dave Joerger?  Sam Cassell?  Kevin McHale?  Jeff Van Gundy?  Brett Brown?


I'm having a hard time thinking of any really great ideas among guys that even might be available.

I'd rather McHale just because I like him personally so much. He was a pretty solid coach at Houston too, but he's so likeable!

I'd consider Will Hardy. He's been everything at the Spurs (video room, summer league, player development, now on the bench), which gives me Spoelstra vibes. He's really young too. Wouldn't mind poaching the heir apparent to the Pop throne.

Would have said Chris Finch a couple of days ago. Charles Lee and Wes Unseld Jr. are two other guys who I think could be good.

What do I know? Nothing. But I feel like Brad will be on the hotseat in the next  18-24 months if results (Finals appearances) don't start to come.

I think Dave Joerger is a fantastic coach, but I have no interest in replacing Stevens.

He's a good coach from all that I've seen (has often been dealt some really poor rosters). I'm willing to give Stevens until 2022-23, barring some catastrophic failures in roster construction, but I definitely wouldn't be upset to see him go at this stage.

fair point, for me the much larger problem with the team is with the person that put it together, because it quite simply just isn't good enough.  It is a small team, it lacks depth, it is super young (and without high draft pick young), etc.  These have been problems for years.  It is only because Stevens is such a good coach (and some luck) that Boston has had the success it has had. 

[the_gunner]

I'm getting depressed when I read this forum! 

We have the worst coach in the world
Nobody wants to play for us because of Ainge
Tatum is selfish and not a player to build around
Kemba is damaged goods and can never be even a mediocre player
All of the youngsters are bad players because we have missed in every draft since Ainge became GM.

Maybe it's because I'm not american, but I believe that's a really great accomplishment  to reach the Eastern Conference Finals in 3 out of the last 4 years - in the most equal league in the world.

I admit that the chances of winning NBA this season is almost 0% but that is not because we are bad, but this season The Lakers are simply to strong, and The Nets are all in, but the thing is, that we keep on getting better and they keep the other top teams will be worse, because our core is young and they have an old core..

I believe that we can build a dynasty around Brown and Tatum, with Smart as the perfect roleplayer. I believe in Timelord, I believe in PP, I believe in Nesmith, and I believe Langford will be healthy and a great player in the future. I love hardworking Theis and Semi and I believe that Kemba will be close to full potential when we reach the playoff.

I love the way that we are nursing our injured and semiinjured players - no need to rush Kemba, Smart or Langford - we need them for the playoff and we need them for next season.

Is everything perfect - no we really need a star player on the center position, but it's really not that simple. Would it have been great to have Myles Turner - definitely, but Hayward just got a better offer.

I believe in this team - I believe in Stevens and I believe in Ainge!

[Ed Monix]

Idk, call this an extremely pessimistic take...

But would it actually be better to miss the playoffs entirely?? I mean right now they are only 1 game ahead of the current 9 seed, right in the mix with a bunch of teams around .500. Maybe then, there’ll be more urgency going into the offseason, and a bit more pressure on Ainge and Stevens.

Because right now, this team just feels like it’s filled with personnel who think they are better than everyone else, and filled with guys who seem to think they have 100% safe jobs so they don’t have to take the extra steps. And yes, I put Ainge and Stevens in that mix. It’s not just Tatum, Brown and the players.

I’m not saying you have to fire Brad and/or Ainge right now, but surely they’ve got to at least have warmer seats… right?? This is inexcusable.

We all know what’ll happen come playoff time. Maybe they win a first round series if they match up against a favorable opponent, but then lose quickly in 4 or 5 the next round to any of MIL/BKN/PHI. Hell, I think even a team like Indiana or even Charlotte FFS could beat us in a playoff series

You HAVE to fire Brad. He is not the answer to this team. This team needs a new direction and a new system. He needs to understand that these guys are not Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, and Draymond Green of the Warriors. The offensive system has got to change.

If this team lost to guys like the Wizards, Hawks, and Pelicans....surely they'll get eaten alive by Indy or Charlotte in a 7-game series. C's lucked out with Simmons being hurt last year in the playoffs, followed-by a grueling 7-game series with the Raptors that went down to the wire.

Faith...Faith...Faith!