Do you have faith?

[hodgy03038]

Celtics lose for just the seventh time in the last 25 years, including playoffs, when holding a 24-point lead (261-7).

I believe, at least, something like this wouldn’t have happened if Smart is on the court.

Or Harrison Baarnes or Vucevic or Thad Young or Myles Turner, etc. But Danny needs to wait until the actual deadline to see if he can swindle someone and then just say there was "no deal" available or some such nonsense. Are the KNicks above us yet?

[gouki88]

As others have said, a lot rides on health. I want to see us with a rotation of Kemba-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Theis-Pritchard-Timelord-Thompson-Nesmith before I abandon all hope.

That being said, I've been putting forth many different ideas for what I think would suit us better. Either a strong big-bodied centre (Jonas V) or an elite offensive force at the 5 (Vuce) as well as athletic bench shooters.

[flybono]

You pink hats have more excuses for Ainge Stevens and the so called superstars lol

The record states who you are as a Team and this Team sux

Thanks Danny Wyc and Brad

[nickagneta]

Always and forever. Things can always change, for various reasons, and this team could find its way back into the ECFs and maybe beyond.

As I have said before, if the 2001 Patriots and especially the 2004 Red Sox taught me anything it's, to quote a famous guy in green, "Anything is possible!"

I'll have faith until that buzzer sounds and the Celts are either world champs, or still world champs to be.

[liam]

As others have said, a lot rides on health. I want to see us with a rotation of Kemba-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Theis-Pritchard-Timelord-Thompson-Nesmith before I abandon all hope.

That being said, I've been putting forth many different ideas for what I think would suit us better. Either a strong big-bodied centre (Jonas V) or an elite offensive force at the 5 (Vuce) as well as athletic bench shooters.

The bench shot 10-15 in this game, they needed more shots. Having shooters does no good if they don't get the ball. Tatum, Walker, Brown shot 22- 68 with 15 assists. Celtics starters need to have faith.

[Moranis]

I always thought this team was middle of the pack, so none of this is surprising. There's just not much substance outside of the Jays/Kemba/Smart with Kemba was coming off a knee injury and Smart being better served as a sixth man. We need more shooting, we need more playmaking, we need more leadership. That was all true before the season started.

This team was built as a bridge year team, not a contender (not even a puncher's chance contender).

So you watched the playoffs last summer and thought it was all just fool's gold, then?

On some level I absolutely did.  I don't think Boston would have beaten Toronto if the teams were traveling back and forth.  I think the bubble really affected the Bucks as well, while Miami was almost built for the bubble.  Plus, Brooklyn obviously wasn't Brooklyn last year and that was before they added a former MVP in his prime .  Philly also clearly has great talent and obviously needed a change at coach. 

At the end of the day, and I've been saying this a lot, you need a top 5 player to really and truly contend, and Boston isn't close to a top 5 player right now.  And frankly just a top 5 player doesn't mean a whole lot unless you surround him with other all NBA caliber players (see Milwaukee). 

[Moranis]

team is 5th or 6th in the East talent wise. Measure your expectations.

Eh ... really?

I guess Milwaukee has more talent just because of Giannis.

Brooklyn definitely has more talent.

Philly ... eh?  Embiid is better than our best guys. Simmons is much worse.  Tobias is better RIGHT NOW than Kemba, but is that a forever thing?  The rest of that roster is not very talented.  The Sixers have two things going for them -- their main guys have been healthy, and their supporting cast fits really well around their stars.  Neither of those things have been true for the Celtics this year, but neither of those factors is about talent.


Miami?  No, I don't think Miami is more talented.  They're deeper and more balanced, but they've been struggling even harder than the Celts so far this season.  As long as Jimmy Butler can't shoot and Tyler Herro is closer to a league average shooter than a very good one, the Heat aren't so scary.

Indiana?  I love Sabonis as much as anyone, but no.



All of that said, at this point for a variety of reasons I am kind of expecting this season to end with a first round playoff loss against the Sixers, Bucks, or Nets because the Celts end up with the 5th or 6th seed.

Brooklyn and Milwaukee are without question better and more talented.  Embiid is the best player on either team and that matters a lot.  I wouldn't say Simmons is much worse than Brown, I think they are pretty similar players.  Simmons is still an elite defender, rebounder, and passer.  All great skills for your complimentary star to have.  Harris has been playing great and the rest of the roster is finally constructed well.  They have shooting, defense, and size.  Very nice length, just a well constructed roster.  Howard has been surprisingly good backing up Embiid as well. 

Miami is 10-8 with Butler and 3-9 without him.  They've played 6 straight games on the road against the West (with 1 game left on the trip) and are 3-3 in part because Butler has been out there.  Miami is just a vastly different team with Butler than without him.  They haven't even had Dragic for this West trip either so it isn't like they are full strength.  And the thing is, Butler, Adebayo, and Dragic compare favorably with Tatum, Brown, and Walker (at least right now - given the age I'd take Boston's without much thought for the future), but the Heat are just a lot deeper with Herro, Nunn, Robinson, Olynyk, Iguodala, Achiuwa and that doesn't even account for guys like Bradley and Harkless on the deep bench.  If the two teams met healthy in the playoffs, I'd expect Miami to win just as they did last year. 

Indiana without LeVert and Warren is not better than Boston, but with those 2 it is a much more interesting discussion because that would make the Pacers so much deeper.  I definitely think Tatum is the best player in that series, but it isn't like Sabonis or Brogdon aren't both very good players. 

[PhoSita]

team is 5th or 6th in the East talent wise. Measure your expectations.

Eh ... really?

I guess Milwaukee has more talent just because of Giannis.

Brooklyn definitely has more talent.

Philly ... eh?  Embiid is better than our best guys. Simmons is much worse.  Tobias is better RIGHT NOW than Kemba, but is that a forever thing?  The rest of that roster is not very talented.  The Sixers have two things going for them -- their main guys have been healthy, and their supporting cast fits really well around their stars.  Neither of those things have been true for the Celtics this year, but neither of those factors is about talent.


Miami?  No, I don't think Miami is more talented.  They're deeper and more balanced, but they've been struggling even harder than the Celts so far this season.  As long as Jimmy Butler can't shoot and Tyler Herro is closer to a league average shooter than a very good one, the Heat aren't so scary.

Indiana?  I love Sabonis as much as anyone, but no.



All of that said, at this point for a variety of reasons I am kind of expecting this season to end with a first round playoff loss against the Sixers, Bucks, or Nets because the Celts end up with the 5th or 6th seed.

Brooklyn and Milwaukee are without question better and more talented.  Embiid is the best player on either team and that matters a lot.  I wouldn't say Simmons is much worse than Brown, I think they are pretty similar players.  Simmons is still an elite defender, rebounder, and passer.  All great skills for your complimentary star to have.  Harris has been playing great and the rest of the roster is finally constructed well.  They have shooting, defense, and size.  Very nice length, just a well constructed roster.  Howard has been surprisingly good backing up Embiid as well. 

Miami is 10-8 with Butler and 3-9 without him.  They've played 6 straight games on the road against the West (with 1 game left on the trip) and are 3-3 in part because Butler has been out there.  Miami is just a vastly different team with Butler than without him.  They haven't even had Dragic for this West trip either so it isn't like they are full strength.  And the thing is, Butler, Adebayo, and Dragic compare favorably with Tatum, Brown, and Walker (at least right now - given the age I'd take Boston's without much thought for the future), but the Heat are just a lot deeper with Herro, Nunn, Robinson, Olynyk, Iguodala, Achiuwa and that doesn't even account for guys like Bradley and Harkless on the deep bench.  If the two teams met healthy in the playoffs, I'd expect Miami to win just as they did last year. 

Indiana without LeVert and Warren is not better than Boston, but with those 2 it is a much more interesting discussion because that would make the Pacers so much deeper.  I definitely think Tatum is the best player in that series, but it isn't like Sabonis or Brogdon aren't both very good players.

Better and more talented are very different metrics, in my view.

I'm aware that you have always been of the opinion that the Celts are less talented than their peers

[PhoSita]

I always thought this team was middle of the pack, so none of this is surprising. There's just not much substance outside of the Jays/Kemba/Smart with Kemba was coming off a knee injury and Smart being better served as a sixth man. We need more shooting, we need more playmaking, we need more leadership. That was all true before the season started.

This team was built as a bridge year team, not a contender (not even a puncher's chance contender).

So you watched the playoffs last summer and thought it was all just fool's gold, then?

On some level I absolutely did.  I don't think Boston would have beaten Toronto if the teams were traveling back and forth.  I think the bubble really affected the Bucks as well, while Miami was almost built for the bubble.  Plus, Brooklyn obviously wasn't Brooklyn last year and that was before they added a former MVP in his prime .  Philly also clearly has great talent and obviously needed a change at coach. 

At the end of the day, and I've been saying this a lot, you need a top 5 player to really and truly contend, and Boston isn't close to a top 5 player right now.  And frankly just a top 5 player doesn't mean a whole lot unless you surround him with other all NBA caliber players (see Milwaukee).

There's never been a Celtics playoff run you didn't gainsay

[Csfan1984]

Shut Kemba and Brown down. Tank the year and play the young guys. Let Tatum avg 40ppg. Come back next year.

[Moranis]

I always thought this team was middle of the pack, so none of this is surprising. There's just not much substance outside of the Jays/Kemba/Smart with Kemba was coming off a knee injury and Smart being better served as a sixth man. We need more shooting, we need more playmaking, we need more leadership. That was all true before the season started.

This team was built as a bridge year team, not a contender (not even a puncher's chance contender).

So you watched the playoffs last summer and thought it was all just fool's gold, then?

On some level I absolutely did.  I don't think Boston would have beaten Toronto if the teams were traveling back and forth.  I think the bubble really affected the Bucks as well, while Miami was almost built for the bubble.  Plus, Brooklyn obviously wasn't Brooklyn last year and that was before they added a former MVP in his prime .  Philly also clearly has great talent and obviously needed a change at coach. 

At the end of the day, and I've been saying this a lot, you need a top 5 player to really and truly contend, and Boston isn't close to a top 5 player right now.  And frankly just a top 5 player doesn't mean a whole lot unless you surround him with other all NBA caliber players (see Milwaukee).

There's never been a Celtics playoff run you didn't gainsay

Not true at all.  I thought the last several seasons were great playoff runs, but I was also under no illusions that Boston was a contender.  Those are two different things.  I've quite enjoyed watching the C's overachieve year after year

[Moranis]

team is 5th or 6th in the East talent wise. Measure your expectations.

Eh ... really?

I guess Milwaukee has more talent just because of Giannis.

Brooklyn definitely has more talent.

Philly ... eh?  Embiid is better than our best guys. Simmons is much worse.  Tobias is better RIGHT NOW than Kemba, but is that a forever thing?  The rest of that roster is not very talented.  The Sixers have two things going for them -- their main guys have been healthy, and their supporting cast fits really well around their stars.  Neither of those things have been true for the Celtics this year, but neither of those factors is about talent.


Miami?  No, I don't think Miami is more talented.  They're deeper and more balanced, but they've been struggling even harder than the Celts so far this season.  As long as Jimmy Butler can't shoot and Tyler Herro is closer to a league average shooter than a very good one, the Heat aren't so scary.

Indiana?  I love Sabonis as much as anyone, but no.



All of that said, at this point for a variety of reasons I am kind of expecting this season to end with a first round playoff loss against the Sixers, Bucks, or Nets because the Celts end up with the 5th or 6th seed.

Brooklyn and Milwaukee are without question better and more talented.  Embiid is the best player on either team and that matters a lot.  I wouldn't say Simmons is much worse than Brown, I think they are pretty similar players.  Simmons is still an elite defender, rebounder, and passer.  All great skills for your complimentary star to have.  Harris has been playing great and the rest of the roster is finally constructed well.  They have shooting, defense, and size.  Very nice length, just a well constructed roster.  Howard has been surprisingly good backing up Embiid as well. 

Miami is 10-8 with Butler and 3-9 without him.  They've played 6 straight games on the road against the West (with 1 game left on the trip) and are 3-3 in part because Butler has been out there.  Miami is just a vastly different team with Butler than without him.  They haven't even had Dragic for this West trip either so it isn't like they are full strength.  And the thing is, Butler, Adebayo, and Dragic compare favorably with Tatum, Brown, and Walker (at least right now - given the age I'd take Boston's without much thought for the future), but the Heat are just a lot deeper with Herro, Nunn, Robinson, Olynyk, Iguodala, Achiuwa and that doesn't even account for guys like Bradley and Harkless on the deep bench.  If the two teams met healthy in the playoffs, I'd expect Miami to win just as they did last year. 

Indiana without LeVert and Warren is not better than Boston, but with those 2 it is a much more interesting discussion because that would make the Pacers so much deeper.  I definitely think Tatum is the best player in that series, but it isn't like Sabonis or Brogdon aren't both very good players.

Better and more talented are very different metrics, in my view.

I'm aware that you have always been of the opinion that the Celts are less talented than their peers

always.  come on now.  Boston hasn't had a top 5 player since KG got old.  That just quite simply matters when you are talking about winning things like championships. There is a reason there are like 3 teams in the entire history of the league that have won a title without a top 5 player.

[Csfan1984]

This Kemba situation feels a lot like Hayward coming back from his injury. The team seemed decent with Pritchard, Semi, and Brown playing pretty well. Things fell apart from the moment Kemba was back. Why didnt the team bring Kemba off the bench and start Pritchard?

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I wish I knew the answer(s). I mean, I'm not sure, for example, if there's even been a 2-month period, at any point in the last 4 seasons (including this one), when all of Boston's key players were healthy. That's just absurd.

And yes, when you repeatedly draft guys with significant injury history, that throws off a lot of stuff—the development of those players is delayed, their integration with the rest of the roster is delayed, and timelines get pushed back. And in Boston's case, is Romeo ever going to be able to play even a quarter of a season without getting injured?

I would love it if somebody like Kirk Goldsberry would do a multiple season analysis of how all of the teams compare in terms of games lost due to injury.

Every team deals with injuries.  It does feel like the Celts deal with more than most.  Is that true, or is it just a feeling?

I could be wrong, but I think it's true. Hayward alone missed a ton of games; then add Kemba, Romeo, Smart, Rob, Kyrie, etc. I really think they have to be among the league leaders over the past several years.

In evaluating our training staff, you have to ask if players are suffering from fluke injuries or if issues are the result of longterm issues that weren't managed properly.

For the most part, they were flukes. The IT thing was something that could've and should've been managed better, but we cleaned house after that.

Now... The jury's still out. How do we manage Timelord's hip soreness? Or Jaylen's knee tendinitis? These are things that athletes can and do play through with a proper treatment plans in place.

If what you say is correct, then Boston has had TONS of flukey injuries. Which is itself a flukey thing. Then again, if flukey things happen so often, can it really be called a fluke? LOL

[Phantom255x]

Idk, call this an extremely pessimistic take...

But would it actually be better to miss the playoffs entirely?? I mean right now they are only 1 game ahead of the current 9 seed, right in the mix with a bunch of teams around .500. Maybe then, there’ll be more urgency going into the offseason, and a bit more pressure on Ainge and Stevens.

Because right now, this team just feels like it’s filled with personnel who think they are better than everyone else, and filled with guys who seem to think they have 100% safe jobs so they don’t have to take the extra steps. And yes, I put Ainge and Stevens in that mix. It’s not just Tatum, Brown and the players.

I’m not saying you have to fire Brad and/or Ainge right now, but surely they’ve got to at least have warmer seats… right?? This is inexcusable.

We all know what’ll happen come playoff time. Maybe they win a first round series if they match up against a favorable opponent, but then lose quickly in 4 or 5 the next round to any of MIL/BKN/PHI. Hell, I think even a team like Indiana or even Charlotte FFS could beat us in a playoff series