Author Topic: James Harden Holding Out  (Read 39205 times)

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Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2020, 08:14:28 PM »

Offline Who

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I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.


With that said, we've lost 3 major free agents in 2 consecutive offseasons. What this front office can or can't handle is far from a sure thing.

The only black mark is Kyrie, I'm not sure having the other two leave for terrible contracts was a healthy way to go.

And I'd posit that Harden is more like Kyrie than he is Horford or Hayward.

I think we're far passed the point of players being so in awe of Celtics lure that they fall on their knees and are grateful to put on the jersey. The league is as player driven as it's ever been. Players are looking for situations where they can call the shots on personnel and get their friends/relatives jobs within the organization. Our one test with a diva-esque player was a disaster. I don't see James Harden coming in and conforming because of Danny Ainge. That's a nice thought but it's fool's gold.

It is not about conforming. It is about saying no.

The player doesn't have to like it. He just has to understand at the end of the day, the GM is the boss.

The player will accept it (in the long run) if the GM makes the right decision(s). Almost all the time, it'll work out for you. A few times it will not. But it is the best long term decision making strategy for your organization, your own job security (as a GM) and for keeping your best player(s).

It is about making the right decision. That is first and foremost.

Not about capitulating to a player or going against the player. It is about what is right for the team - if your GM can figure that out, your player will accept it.

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2020, 08:23:09 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

The Rockets have had James Harden on the team putting up MVP numbers for 8 seasons now, and in those 8 season the Rockets have made the conference finals twice, made the conference semifinals 3 times, and been knocked out in the first round 3 times.  That's a 25% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

The Celtics have had Tatum and Brown together for 3 seasons, and in those 3 seasons they have made the conference finals twice and made the  conference semifinals once.  That's a 66% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

That seems to indicate that to date, the Celtics have been FAR more successful with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have been so far with Harden.

Now lets look at the future . James Harden is 31 years old and at the absolute apex of his career - from here the only way to go is down.  Tatum and Brown are 22 and 23 years old, respectively, and as a pair they are on a trajectory to continue improving for the next  4-5 years before they reach their prime - meaning the only way for them to go is up.

So let me ask you this.  If the Celtics have had more success (interms of actually winning) so far with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have had with Harden, and the Celtics project to only further broaden that gap as time goes on (as Tatum/Brown improve an Harden declines) - how exactly do come to the conclusion that Boston would be wise putting their future in the hands of Harden rather then Tatum and Brown?
That's a terrible argument. The West and the East conferences are night and day. You can not compare the success of their teams in that fashion.

 But I do feel saying Harden is more ready to lead is a little strong. Harden would be a piece which is why I feel you couldn't deal Brown for him. C's are already lucky with Tatum and Brown.

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2020, 08:34:27 PM »

Offline RJ87

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I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.


With that said, we've lost 3 major free agents in 2 consecutive offseasons. What this front office can or can't handle is far from a sure thing.

The only black mark is Kyrie, I'm not sure having the other two leave for terrible contracts was a healthy way to go.

And I'd posit that Harden is more like Kyrie than he is Horford or Hayward.

I think we're far passed the point of players being so in awe of Celtics lure that they fall on their knees and are grateful to put on the jersey. The league is as player driven as it's ever been. Players are looking for situations where they can call the shots on personnel and get their friends/relatives jobs within the organization. Our one test with a diva-esque player was a disaster. I don't see James Harden coming in and conforming because of Danny Ainge. That's a nice thought but it's fool's gold.

It is not about conforming. It is about saying no.

The player doesn't have to like it. He just has to understand at the end of the day, the GM is the boss.

My sister is currently trying this strategy with my 2 year old nephew. Results have been promising so far, but my nephew is relatively reasonable.

Harden is a multi-millionaire who's been getting his way in Houston for the past 8 years. He told Houston to trade for his buddy Westbrook or trade him. He can't stay out of strip clubs during a pandemic even when it's explicitly against league protocol. Again, if you think that's a guy that will show reason because Danny Ainge is stern, then do you. It feels kind of pie in the sky to me, though.
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Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2020, 09:04:18 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

The Rockets have had James Harden on the team putting up MVP numbers for 8 seasons now, and in those 8 season the Rockets have made the conference finals twice, made the conference semifinals 3 times, and been knocked out in the first round 3 times.  That's a 25% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

The Celtics have had Tatum and Brown together for 3 seasons, and in those 3 seasons they have made the conference finals twice and made the  conference semifinals once.  That's a 66% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

That seems to indicate that to date, the Celtics have been FAR more successful with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have been so far with Harden.

Now lets look at the future . James Harden is 31 years old and at the absolute apex of his career - from here the only way to go is down.  Tatum and Brown are 22 and 23 years old, respectively, and as a pair they are on a trajectory to continue improving for the next  4-5 years before they reach their prime - meaning the only way for them to go is up.

So let me ask you this.  If the Celtics have had more success (interms of actually winning) so far with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have had with Harden, and the Celtics project to only further broaden that gap as time goes on (as Tatum/Brown improve an Harden declines) - how exactly do come to the conclusion that Boston would be wise putting their future in the hands of Harden rather then Tatum and Brown?
That's a terrible argument. The West and the East conferences are night and day. You can not compare the success of their teams in that fashion.

 But I do feel saying Harden is more ready to lead is a little strong. Harden would be a piece which is why I feel you couldn't deal Brown for him. C's are already lucky with Tatum and Brown.
Not only that the Rockets lost to the Warriors with KD twice and the Lakers with Lebron/AD, so but for a KD injury they would have lost to the eventual champion.
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Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #109 on: December 10, 2020, 02:53:14 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

The Rockets have had James Harden on the team putting up MVP numbers for 8 seasons now, and in those 8 season the Rockets have made the conference finals twice, made the conference semifinals 3 times, and been knocked out in the first round 3 times.  That's a 25% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

The Celtics have had Tatum and Brown together for 3 seasons, and in those 3 seasons they have made the conference finals twice and made the  conference semifinals once.  That's a 66% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

That seems to indicate that to date, the Celtics have been FAR more successful with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have been so far with Harden.

Now lets look at the future . James Harden is 31 years old and at the absolute apex of his career - from here the only way to go is down.  Tatum and Brown are 22 and 23 years old, respectively, and as a pair they are on a trajectory to continue improving for the next  4-5 years before they reach their prime - meaning the only way for them to go is up.

So let me ask you this.  If the Celtics have had more success (interms of actually winning) so far with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have had with Harden, and the Celtics project to only further broaden that gap as time goes on (as Tatum/Brown improve an Harden declines) - how exactly do come to the conclusion that Boston would be wise putting their future in the hands of Harden rather then Tatum and Brown?
That's a terrible argument. The West and the East conferences are night and day. You can not compare the success of their teams in that fashion.

But I do feel saying Harden is more ready to lead is a little strong. Harden would be a piece which is why I feel you couldn't deal Brown for him. C's are already lucky with Tatum and Brown.

I can, and I just did. 

You may disagree with it, and that is your right.  However the way I see it Harden is an egomaniac who has demonstrated time and time again that he cannot co-exist with other star players, and yet isn't good enough as a leader / clutch guy to win without them.

I'm perfectly happy to let him stew over in Houston while he continues to lead them to nowhere of significance while bragging to the world about how great he is and why he should be the MVP.   

One way or the other I have absolutely zero interest in the idea of sitting there 3 years from now watching Boston waddle around in mediocrity while paying a 34 year old James Harden $40,000 to scare off star players and hang out in gentleman's clubs.  I'll pass, thanks.

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #110 on: December 10, 2020, 06:00:16 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

The Rockets have had James Harden on the team putting up MVP numbers for 8 seasons now, and in those 8 season the Rockets have made the conference finals twice, made the conference semifinals 3 times, and been knocked out in the first round 3 times.  That's a 25% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

The Celtics have had Tatum and Brown together for 3 seasons, and in those 3 seasons they have made the conference finals twice and made the  conference semifinals once.  That's a 66% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

That seems to indicate that to date, the Celtics have been FAR more successful with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have been so far with Harden.

Now lets look at the future . James Harden is 31 years old and at the absolute apex of his career - from here the only way to go is down.  Tatum and Brown are 22 and 23 years old, respectively, and as a pair they are on a trajectory to continue improving for the next  4-5 years before they reach their prime - meaning the only way for them to go is up.

So let me ask you this.  If the Celtics have had more success (interms of actually winning) so far with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have had with Harden, and the Celtics project to only further broaden that gap as time goes on (as Tatum/Brown improve an Harden declines) - how exactly do come to the conclusion that Boston would be wise putting their future in the hands of Harden rather then Tatum and Brown?
That's a terrible argument. The West and the East conferences are night and day. You can not compare the success of their teams in that fashion.

But I do feel saying Harden is more ready to lead is a little strong. Harden would be a piece which is why I feel you couldn't deal Brown for him. C's are already lucky with Tatum and Brown.

I can, and I just did. 

You may disagree with it, and that is your right.
Anyone who knows basketball and the facts will disagree that it has any merit.

I'm all for having a opinion but trying to skew things for a argument is bad and makes your position look weak. I understand not liking Harden but no need to blow smoke. Plenty of other issues are legit, just not that one.

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #111 on: December 10, 2020, 08:18:27 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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For me

Harden plus Tatem > Brown plus Tatum

for me Harden makes us a legitimate contender for how ever many years he is willing to stay .  He doesn't seem anxious to go to LA.

old and now Injury prone KD Kyrie seems like a long shot to stay healthy .

celtics withHarden are clear favorites in east .  Even over Giannis I think .   Nets is too fragile

Boston or Miami is Hardens best shot if he wants to come ot of the east.



If we could win one title ....I d be cool  with that . otherwise we can be runner up for more years.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 08:29:15 AM by SHAQATTACK »

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2020, 08:51:07 AM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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For me

Harden plus Tatem > Brown plus Tatum

for me Harden makes us a legitimate contender for how ever many years he is willing to stay .  He doesn't seem anxious to go to LA.

old and now Injury prone KD Kyrie seems like a long shot to stay healthy .

celtics withHarden are clear favorites in east .  Even over Giannis I think .   Nets is too fragile

Boston or Miami is Hardens best shot if he wants to come ot of the east.



If we could win one title ....I d be cool  with that . otherwise we can be runner up for more years.

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Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2020, 11:08:00 AM »

Offline apc

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So Celtics did not make it to Hardens wishlist...

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #114 on: December 10, 2020, 11:11:07 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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So Celtics did not make it to Hardens wishlist...
And vice versa

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2020, 11:39:01 AM »

Offline Wretch

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With the Bucks now on Harden's list the Bucks could send Holiday, Lopez and some picks to Houston for Harden.  The Harden spacing the floor for Giannis would be nasty.

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #116 on: December 10, 2020, 11:57:44 AM »

Offline jbpats

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With the Bucks now on Harden's list the Bucks could send Holiday, Lopez and some picks to Houston for Harden.  The Harden spacing the floor for Giannis would be nasty.

Yea I almost feel the Bucks are forced to deal for him to go in all in mode and also to please Giannis, of course assuming Giannis even wants him there in the first place.

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #117 on: December 10, 2020, 12:02:05 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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With the Bucks now on Harden's list the Bucks could send Holiday, Lopez and some picks to Houston for Harden.  The Harden spacing the floor for Giannis would be nasty.
They have no picks. I think they have to send both Middleton and Holiday (and one pick if they have any left) and get back Harden and Gordon... it might work for one season then reset

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #118 on: December 10, 2020, 12:06:07 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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I don't believe Harden fits well next to any superstar. He simply Heavily decreases their ball usage. Harden only fits well next to 40 role players that do nothing but  shoot 3s off the ball

Re: James Harden Holding Out
« Reply #119 on: December 10, 2020, 12:10:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't believe Harden fits well next to any superstar. He simply Heavily decreases their ball usage. Harden only fits well next to 40 role players that do nothing but  shoot 3s off the ball

I think he would fit well next to a star who is more of a "finisher" than a creator.  Classic example would be a big man who can shoot a bit, post a bit, and roll to the rim, but who doesn't do much ball handling or passing.

Ten years ago the example of that was Chris Bosh.

First guy that comes to mind in the league now is Karl Towns. 

I don't think Harden would work well on a team with other stars who like to handle the ball and create.  That leads to a "your turn / my turn" dynamic, which usually doesn't go super well unless it's paired with an awesome defense.  But I suppose it's always possible that if he's on a good enough team with a true "alpha dog" type co-star he would change his approach.
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