James Harden Holding Out

[Moranis]

I entertained the thought like a month ago.

Now? No thanks. I mean I'm a bit surprised this isn't being talked about much, but the guy is literally on pics blatantly ignoring COVID-19 guidelines. No mask, in clubs or other places. I know that's the state of the U.S. unfortunately but the NBA released strict guidelines and Harden's blatantly ignoring it too.

Also, it's obvious the guy pushed CP3 out and demanded Westbrook, and despite all they've tried to do around him the Rockets can't get over the hump. Because Harden's a big playoff choker. Even last season Westbrook I thought was the primary issue in the 2nd round, but what exactly did the great James Harden do after Game 1 of the 2nd round?? As usual, choked and underperformed.

Game 2 - 27 points, 50% from 2, 50% from 3 with 7 assists, 2 rebounds, 2 steals
Game 3 - 33 points, 50% from 2, 44.4% from 3 with 9 assists, 9 rebounds, and just 2 turnovers
Game 4 - Awful game just 21 points, 20% from 2, 16.7% from 3 with 10 assists and 4 rebounds
Game 5 - 30 points, 83.3% from 2, 25% from 3 with 5 assists, 6 rebounds and a steal and a block

I'll take that choke-job on my team any day of the week.

[Ogaju]

I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

[NKY fan]

I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

I noticed that half of the Celtics fans are fine with this semi rebuilding semi contending course the team has been on the last 7 seasons. I see no reasons they will be unhappy with more of the same the next few seasons until Tatum gets to renew

[SHAQATTACK]

I think a dark horse could be the Raptors. Here's the offer.
Siakim
Powell and OG (if this extends into the season, when FVV became available after signing his contract, I could see them offering him instead of Powell and OG)
Three future first rounders and two pick swaps

for Harden and Tucker.

Siakim is not the same as Simmons, but if the Sixers are playing hardball with picks, he's still an all-star player. Siakim would also be better than any asset the Nets can give.

The Raptors would still have Lowry, Harden, FVV, Boucher, Tucker, and Baynes. They'd need more depth, but that's a pretty good team that could challenge in the East under Nick Nurse. I could see the Raptors as a "cool" franchise option that Harden might want too.

Interesting, but unless GA signs extension, they will preserve cap space.

Also doubt the would give up BOTH OG and Siakam.

It would take both Siakam is way over rated .   If Harden arrived there without OG and Siakam at minimum he d be really sick and worse situation than Houston. I doubt he would agree to go there willingly

[td450]

I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

I noticed that half of the Celtics fans are fine with this semi rebuilding semi contending course the team has been on the last 7 seasons. I see no reasons they will be unhappy with more of the same the next few seasons until Tatum gets to renew

Can't speak for everyone,but I'm a lifelong Celtics fan. I don't "hate" basketball players. Not a fan of that type of fragile language. I don't like how James Harden plays, or handles himself as a franchise level player.

I don't root for laundry. I like that the Celtics, with just a few exceptional years, have represented the city and the fans admirably. They fit the Boston attitude about effort and team first play. I'd prefer if they were winning titles and going to the finals more, but because they are obviously committed to competing the way I expect them to, I am an all-in fan.

I think they are pretty close, and I very much appreciate the two young stars, and how they carry their responsibilities. The team has been quite unlucky the last few years. I give them some room for that, because that's part of sports. As long as they are doing everything they can to win a title and represent the city, I'm on board.

I want to win, but we aren't LA. We don't just buy titles. We have to earn them. I'm OK with that.

[RJ87]

I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

I noticed that half of the Celtics fans are fine with this semi rebuilding semi contending course the team has been on the last 7 seasons. I see no reasons they will be unhappy with more of the same the next few seasons until Tatum gets to renew

I've said multiple times I have no problem trading the young guys, but Harden isn't the guy. Houston has given him whatever he's wanted - he wanted Dwight, they signed Dwight. He wanted Mchale fired, they fired Mchale. He wanted to play with CP3, they traded for CP3. He wanted to get rid of Cp3 to play with Russell, they traded for Russell. And he still wants out.

It's funny that the people wanting Harden are the ones still chasing after Kyrie with pitchforks.

[Who]

I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.

[RodyTur10]

I think a dark horse could be the Raptors. Here's the offer.
Siakim
Powell and OG (if this extends into the season, when FVV became available after signing his contract, I could see them offering him instead of Powell and OG)
Three future first rounders and two pick swaps

for Harden and Tucker.

Siakim is not the same as Simmons, but if the Sixers are playing hardball with picks, he's still an all-star player. Siakim would also be better than any asset the Nets can give.

The Raptors would still have Lowry, Harden, FVV, Boucher, Tucker, and Baynes. They'd need more depth, but that's a pretty good team that could challenge in the East under Nick Nurse. I could see the Raptors as a "cool" franchise option that Harden might want too.

I doubt Raptors would give up that much for Harden. Then the Raptors are not really contenders anymore

Not the Rockets 1st choice. But might be preferred than Tobias Harris + Korkmaz or Dinwiddie + Levert

To Rockets: Siakam, Powell, 2 future 1sts
To Raptors: Harden

I think it became clear in the playoffs against us for the Raptors that Siakam isn't a franchise player and is probably a bit overpaid. At the same time VanVleet did perform okay, but is also probably at his ceiling. Also VanVleet's role would be weird if Harden came to Toronto. Therefore I'd offer them both if I were Toronto and limit the number of future firsts. Toronto can also help the Rockets by taking on Gordon's contract (because Toronto is hardcapped they need to send out enough salary, VanVleet makes that work).

To Rockets: Siakam, VanVleet, McCaw, S.Johnson, 2022 1st, 2023 pick swap
To Raptors: Harden, Gordon, Tucker

Toronto Raptors
starters: Lowry/Harden/Powell/Anunoby/Baynes
rotation: Gordon/Davis/Tucker/Boucher
bench: Flynn/Thomas/Len

[RJ87]

I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.

It's a player's league. There's no superstar player right now that isn't playing a major role in franchise decisions. Maybe Steph Curry? But most are following the Lebron roadmap so front offices are darned if they do, darned if they don't. Give the player what he wants, you're not strong enough. Don't give the player what he wants, you're not trying hard enough to build around him.

With that said, we've lost 3 major free agents in 2 consecutive offseasons. What this front office can or can't handle is far from a sure thing.

[Rondo9]

I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.

With that said, we've lost 3 major free agents in 2 consecutive offseasons. What this front office can or can't handle is far from a sure thing.

The only black mark is Kyrie, I'm not sure having the other two leave for terrible contracts was a healthy way to go.

[moiso]

I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

In my opinion Tatum is more likely to lead a team to a championship than Harden.  Tatum can be the best player on a championship team if you give him enough talent around him.  Harden will never "lead" a team to a championship.

[Phantom255x]

I entertained the thought like a month ago.

Now? No thanks. I mean I'm a bit surprised this isn't being talked about much, but the guy is literally on pics blatantly ignoring COVID-19 guidelines. No mask, in clubs or other places. I know that's the state of the U.S. unfortunately but the NBA released strict guidelines and Harden's blatantly ignoring it too.

Also, it's obvious the guy pushed CP3 out and demanded Westbrook, and despite all they've tried to do around him the Rockets can't get over the hump. Because Harden's a big playoff choker. Even last season Westbrook I thought was the primary issue in the 2nd round, but what exactly did the great James Harden do after Game 1 of the 2nd round?? As usual, choked and underperformed.

Game 2 - 27 points, 50% from 2, 50% from 3 with 7 assists, 2 rebounds, 2 steals
Game 3 - 33 points, 50% from 2, 44.4% from 3 with 9 assists, 9 rebounds, and just 2 turnovers
Game 4 - Awful game just 21 points, 20% from 2, 16.7% from 3 with 10 assists and 4 rebounds
Game 5 - 30 points, 83.3% from 2, 25% from 3 with 5 assists, 6 rebounds and a steal and a block

I'll take that choke-job on my team any day of the week.

I'll give you Game 2. But in Game 3, he had 7 FTA, and Game 5 had 4 FTA. For a guy who thrives on drawing fouls and getting to the line, he typically isn't able to do it to the extent he usually does in the playoffs when the refs aren't calling everything. Also, he had a +/- rating of -29 in Game 5.

I'll admit maybe I was a little harsh saying his previous postseason was "another choke" from him, but what's still true is that in the crucial games where he needs to perform, he falters. As you also said, he was awful in Game 4 when they were down 2-1.

Either way I don't think it matters much anyways. I think he's more of a headcase than we originally thought and seeing how the Kyrie experience lasted here, I'd still pass.

[RJ87]

I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.

With that said, we've lost 3 major free agents in 2 consecutive offseasons. What this front office can or can't handle is far from a sure thing.

The only black mark is Kyrie, I'm not sure having the other two leave for terrible contracts was a healthy way to go.

And I'd posit that Harden is more like Kyrie than he is Horford or Hayward.

I think we're far passed the point of players being so in awe of Celtics lure that they fall on their knees and are grateful to put on the jersey. The league is as player driven as it's ever been. Players are looking for situations where they can call the shots on personnel and get their friends/relatives jobs within the organization. Our one test with a diva-esque player was a disaster. I don't see James Harden coming in and conforming because of Danny Ainge. That's a nice thought but it's fool's gold.

[Rondo9]

I find it strange that people are focused on Harden telling the Rockets what he wants in terms of roster moves ... how do I say this:

It is not complying with a player's demands that drives loyalty; it is making the right decision for the team. If a player makes bad demands on roster moves, you as an organization have to stand up and say no.

Failure to do stand up to a player's bad demands makes you more vulnerable to that player leaving. Not less.

Conceding / complying to a player's bad demands makes it more likely your player leaves your team opposed to staying.

Making the right decisions and keeping the team on the right path is your best bet to convincing your talent to stick around. That is what strong front offices do.

If Houston, and it sounds like they did, concede to Harden's every whim and demand - they only have themselves to blame. They were a weak badly run organization.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror and accept responsibility for their bad management.

Blaming it on the player is such a cop-out. I hate that crap. Just as much as I hate seeing some teams trying to sign a player's friend in order to make the player happier (short termism) instead of trying to improve the team (long term thinking).

No matter what the player says or demands ... you are the management. You are the owner. It is your decision. You have final say in those roster moves and you carry the judgement & consequences of those decisions.

------------------------------------------------

Back to Harden. Harden's actions in these areas do not worry me. Having a bad front office that won't stand up to him and is incapable of making sound decisions worries me. Harden's wants do not. Just as I am not worried about Harden asking / demanding for a trade because he wants to play on a title contender.

We have Danny Ainge and one of the strongest front offices in the league. I have trust & confidence in Ainge. He can handle someone like Harden. Ainge won't back down and make a bunch of bad decisions for the team just because Harden wanted those moves.

With that said, we've lost 3 major free agents in 2 consecutive offseasons. What this front office can or can't handle is far from a sure thing.

The only black mark is Kyrie, I'm not sure having the other two leave for terrible contracts was a healthy way to go.

And I'd posit that Harden is more like Kyrie than he is Horford or Hayward.

I think we're far passed the point of players being so in awe of Celtics lure that they fall on their knees and are grateful to put on the jersey. The league is as player driven as it's ever been. Players are looking for situations where they can call the shots on personnel and get their friends/relatives jobs within the organization. Our one test with a diva-esque player was a disaster. I don't see James Harden coming in and conforming because of Danny Ainge. That's a nice thought but it's fool's gold.

To be honest the whole team traditions thing is probably an illusion. Like you said, players are trying to play at places they want to go to.

[Muzzy66]

I really do not get all the hatred for Harden on this blog. A lot of people here are content with handing the team over to a player on his rookie contract. That is great if you are not looking to win a championship in the next 4 years or so. Ownership is probably okay with this as long as they make money off Tatum jerseys and have runs in the playoffs that keeps the fans going to games thinking they are close to championships when in actuality it takes players 6-8 years in the league to lead teams to championships.

The Rockets have had James Harden on the team putting up MVP numbers for 8 seasons now, and in those 8 season the Rockets have made the conference finals twice, made the conference semifinals 3 times, and been knocked out in the first round 3 times.  That's a 25% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

The Celtics have had Tatum and Brown together for 3 seasons, and in those 3 seasons they have made the conference finals twice and made the  conference semifinals once.  That's a 66% success rate of making the conference finals or better.

That seems to indicate that to date, the Celtics have been FAR more successful with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have been so far with Harden.

Now lets look at the future . James Harden is 31 years old and at the absolute apex of his career - from here the only way to go is down.  Tatum and Brown are 22 and 23 years old, respectively, and as a pair they are on a trajectory to continue improving for the next  4-5 years before they reach their prime - meaning the only way for them to go is up.

So let me ask you this.  If the Celtics have had more success (interms of actually winning) so far with Tatum and Brown then the Rockets have had with Harden, and the Celtics project to only further broaden that gap as time goes on (as Tatum/Brown improve an Harden declines) - how exactly do come to the conclusion that Boston would be wise putting their future in the hands of Harden rather then Tatum and Brown?

Harden has paid his dues, he is ready to lead a team to a championship. The Celtics will be lucky to have him lead the team to Banner 18. Tatum is not ready. No slam on him, he is on par with many transcendant players who also needed time to lead teams to championships.

On what do you base this?

Harden has been a selfish egotistical stat padder his entire life.  He's never shown even the slightest indication of being a winner, and he's demonstrated time after time that he isn't clutch and chokes on the big stage.   He's constantly played on stacked (or at least extremely talented) teams yet still his teams continues to under-perform come playoff time.

He's shown every indication that he is an egomanic who struggles as a leader and has trouble getting along with other star players either on or off the court since nobody who joins him there seems to stay for long (Dwight Howard, Westbrook, CP3, etc). 

He is also a shockingly bad and lazy defensive player, which is not a surprise in the slightest consider that good defense doesn't show up on box scores..and Harden doesn't car about anything that doesn't elevate his individual numbers and make him look like a big star.

Harden couldn't win when he was playing with Westbrook AND Durant AND Ibaka on a historically stacked OKC team.  He couldn't win with Westbrook.  He couldnt win with Chris Paul and Melo.  He couldn't win with Dwight Howard.  What on earth makes you think he's going to be capable of winning with this Celtics team with Tatum (assuming you trade Smart/Kemba and Brown for him)?

The only way Harden will ever win a title is if he demands a trade to the Lakers and rides Lebron's jockstrap.