Hayward sign-and-trade completed

[RodyTur10]

There are a lot of emotional reactions, frustrations and different takes on all what happened around this Hayward-situation. People questioning reports and have different interpretations or opinions on certain events. Anyway, there have been a lot of reports by various journalists and documented information that allows us to sketch what actually happened.

Fact 1: Gordon Hayward and Boston Celtics agreed on extending deadline option (date: November 17th)

Source: https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/30337631/boston-celtics-gordon-hayward-extend-deadline-player-option-thursday-sources-say

Fact 2: Hayward not opting out 17th November can only mean that he didn't know where or what he could sign for

Source: https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/boston-celtics-keeping-options-open-gordon-hayward-indiana-pacers

Fact 3: Hayward opts out of contract with Celtics (Nov 19th)

Source: https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/11/19/gordon-hayward-opt-out-boston-celtics/

Fact 4: Hayward opting out and not resigning immediately must mean he had other team(s) interested with good offers

Fact 5: Boston Celtics and Indiana Pacers both were willing to sign Hayward for around 100+/4 contract

Source: https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/11/23/gordon-hayward-celtics-pacers-contract-offers-hornets-contract-nba-free-agency/

Fact 6: Both teams could avoid the luxury tax while signing Hayward at around 25M starting salary

Fact 7: Gordon Hayward was very interested in signing for the Indiana Pacers for the reported offer (Nov 20th)

Source: https://www.si.com/nba/2020/11/20/gordon-hayward-wants-to-sign-with-pacers

Fact 8: Indiana Pacers didn't have cap space to sign Gordon Hayward without an agreed sign-and-trade by all sides

Fact 9: Indiana Pacers wanted to deal Myles Turner in a sign-and-trade for Gordon Hayward (Nov 20th)

Source: https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/11/20/21583119/report-indiana-pacers-boston-celtics-sign-trade-gordon-hayward-myles-turner-tj-warren-doug-mcdermott

Fact 10: Indiana Pacers would have needed to add salaryfiller to Turner's salary to be able to sign Hayward for 100/4 contract

Fact 11: Indiana Pacers offered Myles Turner + Doug McDermott (Nov 20th)

Fact 12: Boston Celtics wanted either TJ Warren or Victor Oladipo included in a sign-and-trade deal with Indiana

Source: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/nba-rumors-heres-what-celtics-want-pacers-trade-involving-gordon-hayward

Fact 13: Boston Celtics weren't very interested in getting Myles Turner and were looking for a 3rd party

Source: https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/11/24/myles-turner-celtics-pacers-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-nba-rumors-danny-ainge/

Fact 14: Boston Celtics wouldn't have the non-taxpayer full MLE to sign Tristan Thompson if they agreed to Indiana offer

Fact 15: Boston Celtics would have stayed under the luxury tax if they added Turner + McDermott instead of Thompson

Fact 16: Talks between Indiana Pacers and Boston Celtics didn't show progress (Nov 21st)

Source: https://twitter.com/scottagness

Fact 17: Thus Indiana Pacers and Boston Celtics never had an agreement on a sign-and-trade

Fact 18: Charlotte Hornets offered Montrezl Harrell a bigger contract than the Lakers did at over $9.5M a year (Nov 20th)

Source: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919187-report-montrezl-harrell-turned-down-bigger-hornets-contract-to-sign-with-lakers

Fact 19: Charlotte Hornets didn't have space to offer Hayward a 120/4 deal simultaneously with a Harrell offer

Fact 20: Thus Charlotte couldn't have offered Hayward this specific (later) agreed on 120/4 deal before November 20th

Source: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/11/lakers-nearing-deal-with-montrezl-harrell.html#:~:text=NOVEMBER%2020%3A%20The%20Lakers%20have,sides%20were%20nearing%20an%20agreement.

Fact 21: Michael Jordan called Gordon Hayward to pursuade him to sign with the Hornets on Friday night, November 20th

Source: https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/michael_jordan_called_gordon_hayward_friday_to_close_120m_deal/s1_13132_33379508

Fact 22: Charlotte Hornets agreed with Gordon Hayward on a 120/4 fully guaranteed deal (Nov 21st)

Source: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/charlotte-hornets/article247260684.html
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None of these reports or sources above have been disputed by other credible sources. In fact they all create a very cohesive story. No reason to question the validity of any of these facts.

So please turn this discussion into a rational debate over whether you liked what the involved parties did or didn't do. And of course a lot of opinions could change when we finally know whether a sign-and-trade with the Charlotte Hornets gets finalized and what piece(s) that brings the Celtics.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

RodyTur10, the only thing I hadn't heard was that it seemed like Boston wanted to divert Myles Turner to a third team.

Again and again, the bigs that Celtic fans fawn over Ainge seems disinterested in.

[GreenEnvy]

RodyTur10, the only thing I hadn't heard was that it seemed like Boston wanted to divert Myles Turner to a third team.

Again and again, the bigs that Celtic fans fawn over Ainge seems disinterested in.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised Ainge was so reluctant to take on Turner. While the guy may not exactly be Marcus Smart on hustle, he’s still an effective shot blocker who can hit the three. Athletic enough, on a reasonable contract. I think if someone lit a fire under him, he could have taken his game to the next level.

[todd_days_41]

There are a lot of emotional reactions, frustrations and different takes on all what happened around this Hayward-situation. People questioning reports and have different interpretations or opinions on certain events. Anyway, there have been a lot of reports by various journalists and documented information that allows us to sketch what actually happened.

Fact 1: Gordon Hayward and Boston Celtics agreed on extending deadline option (date: November 17th)

Source: https://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/30337631/boston-celtics-gordon-hayward-extend-deadline-player-option-thursday-sources-say

Fact 2: Hayward not opting out 17th November can only mean that he didn't know where or what he could sign for

Source: https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/boston-celtics-keeping-options-open-gordon-hayward-indiana-pacers

Fact 3: Hayward opts out of contract with Celtics (Nov 19th)

Source: https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/11/19/gordon-hayward-opt-out-boston-celtics/

Fact 4: Hayward opting out and not resigning immediately must mean he had other team(s) interested with good offers

Fact 5: Boston Celtics and Indiana Pacers both were willing to sign Hayward for around 100+/4 contract

Source: https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/11/23/gordon-hayward-celtics-pacers-contract-offers-hornets-contract-nba-free-agency/

Fact 6: Both teams could avoid the luxury tax while signing Hayward at around 25M starting salary

Fact 7: Gordon Hayward was very interested in signing for the Indiana Pacers for the reported offer (Nov 20th)

Source: https://www.si.com/nba/2020/11/20/gordon-hayward-wants-to-sign-with-pacers

Fact 8: Indiana Pacers didn't have cap space to sign Gordon Hayward without an agreed sign-and-trade by all sides

Fact 9: Indiana Pacers wanted to deal Myles Turner in a sign-and-trade for Gordon Hayward (Nov 20th)

Source: https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/11/20/21583119/report-indiana-pacers-boston-celtics-sign-trade-gordon-hayward-myles-turner-tj-warren-doug-mcdermott

Fact 10: Indiana Pacers would have needed to add salaryfiller to Turner's salary to be able to sign Hayward for 100/4 contract

Fact 11: Indiana Pacers offered Myles Turner + Doug McDermott (Nov 20th)

Fact 12: Boston Celtics wanted either TJ Warren or Victor Oladipo included in a sign-and-trade deal with Indiana

Source: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/nba-rumors-heres-what-celtics-want-pacers-trade-involving-gordon-hayward

Fact 13: Boston Celtics weren't very interested in getting Myles Turner and were looking for a 3rd party

Source: https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/11/24/myles-turner-celtics-pacers-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-nba-rumors-danny-ainge/

Fact 14: Boston Celtics wouldn't have the non-taxpayer full MLE to sign Tristan Thompson if they agreed to Indiana offer

Fact 15: Boston Celtics would have stayed under the luxury tax if they added Turner + McDermott instead of Thompson

Fact 16: Talks between Indiana Pacers and Boston Celtics didn't show progress (Nov 21st)

Source: https://twitter.com/scottagness

Fact 17: Thus Indiana Pacers and Boston Celtics never had an agreement on a sign-and-trade

Fact 18: Charlotte Hornets offered Montrezl Harrell a bigger contract than the Lakers did at over $9.5M a year (Nov 20th)

Source: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919187-report-montrezl-harrell-turned-down-bigger-hornets-contract-to-sign-with-lakers

Fact 19: Charlotte Hornets didn't have space to offer Hayward a 120/4 deal simultaneously with a Harrell offer

Fact 20: Thus Charlotte couldn't have offered Hayward this specific (later) agreed on 120/4 deal before November 20th

Source: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/11/lakers-nearing-deal-with-montrezl-harrell.html#:~:text=NOVEMBER%2020%3A%20The%20Lakers%20have,sides%20were%20nearing%20an%20agreement.

Fact 21: Michael Jordan called Gordon Hayward to pursuade him to sign with the Hornets on Friday night, November 20th

Source: https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/michael_jordan_called_gordon_hayward_friday_to_close_120m_deal/s1_13132_33379508

Fact 22: Charlotte Hornets agreed with Gordon Hayward on a 120/4 fully guaranteed deal (Nov 21st)

Source: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/charlotte-hornets/article247260684.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

None of these reports or sources above have been disputed by other credible sources. In fact they all create a very cohesive story. No reason to question the validity of any of these facts.

So please turn this discussion into a rational debate over whether you liked what the involved parties did or didn't do. And of course a lot of opinions could change when we finally know whether a sign-and-trade with the Charlotte Hornets gets finalized and what piece(s) that brings the Celtics.

Awesome stuff, RodyTur10. TP. A couple points:

1) I didn't know the Cs wouldn't have the mid-level to sign Thompson if they'd done a deal with the Pacers. I've argued Ainge may prefer Thompson to Turner, and this only confirms it would have to have been a choice between the two.

2) You call them "facts", but I don't think you can assume everything listed above is true. Some / a lot of it probably is, but some is likely speculation.

[RJ87]

RodyTur10, the only thing I hadn't heard was that it seemed like Boston wanted to divert Myles Turner to a third team.

Again and again, the bigs that Celtic fans fawn over Ainge seems disinterested in.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised Ainge was so reluctant to take on Turner. While the guy may not exactly be Marcus Smart on hustle, he’s still an effective shot blocker who can hit the three. Athletic enough, on a reasonable contract. I think if someone lit a fire under him, he could have taken his game to the next level.

Turner played with 4 of our guys on Team USA (where Popp routinely trusted Jaylen to defend bigs over him, btw). Perhaps the front office had all the intel they needed.

[todd_days_41]

......what the what is taking so long?

[wdleehi]

RodyTur10, the only thing I hadn't heard was that it seemed like Boston wanted to divert Myles Turner to a third team.

Again and again, the bigs that Celtic fans fawn over Ainge seems disinterested in.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised Ainge was so reluctant to take on Turner. While the guy may not exactly be Marcus Smart on hustle, he’s still an effective shot blocker who can hit the three. Athletic enough, on a reasonable contract. I think if someone lit a fire under him, he could have taken his game to the next level.

Turner played with 4 of our guys on Team USA (where Popp routinely trusted Jaylen to defend bigs over him, btw). Perhaps the front office had all the intel they needed.

Here is one better, the Celtics and Pacer were looking for a third team to take Turner and was struggling to get it done.   

Makes you think his value (basically contract) is less to actual NBA teams then NBA fans.

[Evantime34]

Even though I was mad when I heard that Hayward was leaving, I don't blame Danny for not working out a trade with Indy because I think Charlotte would have always offered more and eventually got Gordon.

I blame Danny for not trading Gordon at the last deadline. I'm a big Danny defender but his asset management hasn't been great (having 3 max players walk and never being able to consolidate draft picks). Even though individual events can be explained but there is a troubling pattern there.

If we can get a big TPE from the Hayward trade I will wait to judge the situation until I see if they are able to use it for a quality player. After the big 3 were traded the Celtics had multiple firsts every year to rebuild. Now we won't have any firsts but our own for a while now. The degree of difficulty is about to increase for Danny but if Tatum and Brown continue to improve then Danny's moves won't be as important.

[Darth_Yoda]

RodyTur10, the only thing I hadn't heard was that it seemed like Boston wanted to divert Myles Turner to a third team.

Again and again, the bigs that Celtic fans fawn over Ainge seems disinterested in.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised Ainge was so reluctant to take on Turner. While the guy may not exactly be Marcus Smart on hustle, he’s still an effective shot blocker who can hit the three. Athletic enough, on a reasonable contract. I think if someone lit a fire under him, he could have taken his game to the next level.

Turner played with 4 of our guys on Team USA (where Popp routinely trusted Jaylen to defend bigs over him, btw). Perhaps the front office had all the intel they needed.

Here is one better, the Celtics and Pacer were looking for a third team to take Turner and was struggling to get it done.   

Makes you think his value (basically contract) is less to actual NBA teams then NBA fans.

I am happy, I did not want turner, would have forced myself to like him if Danny traded, but happy I dont need to.

[footey]

Even though I was mad when I heard that Hayward was leaving, I don't blame Danny for not working out a trade with Indy because I think Charlotte would have always offered more and eventually got Gordon.

I blame Danny for not trading Gordon at the last deadline. I'm a big Danny defender but his asset management hasn't been great (having 3 max players walk and never being able to consolidate draft picks). Even though individual events can be explained but there is a troubling pattern there.

If we can get a big TPE from the Hayward trade I will wait to judge the situation until I see if they are able to use it for a quality player. After the big 3 were traded the Celtics had multiple firsts every year to rebuild. Now we won't have any firsts but our own for a while now. The degree of difficulty is about to increase for Danny but if Tatum and Brown continue to improve then Danny's moves won't be as important.

I'm not buying this.  Hayward was healthy at the time, and we had a legitimate shot at winning it all. So why on earth were you in favor of him dumping him and getting very little in return? 

[BitterJim]

Even though I was mad when I heard that Hayward was leaving, I don't blame Danny for not working out a trade with Indy because I think Charlotte would have always offered more and eventually got Gordon.

I blame Danny for not trading Gordon at the last deadline. I'm a big Danny defender but his asset management hasn't been great (having 3 max players walk and never being able to consolidate draft picks). Even though individual events can be explained but there is a troubling pattern there.

If we can get a big TPE from the Hayward trade I will wait to judge the situation until I see if they are able to use it for a quality player. After the big 3 were traded the Celtics had multiple firsts every year to rebuild. Now we won't have any firsts but our own for a while now. The degree of difficulty is about to increase for Danny but if Tatum and Brown continue to improve then Danny's moves won't be as important.

I couldn't disagree more. We were a Hayward ankle sprain away from the finals.

It's great to look back in hindsight and say that because Hayward got hurt trading him wouldn't have made a difference, but we had no way of knowing that at the time. And if he had traded Hayward at the deadline, only for the team to lose while struggling against the Heat's zone defense? People would just be here talking about how Ainge ruined our chance at the finals

[LilRip]

The ff is speculation but I think are also highly plausible scenarios that could help explain why some events happened, without going off the rails:

PRIOR TO OPT OUT
- Hayward and his agent probably knew there were offers early on (Knicks, Charlotte, Indy, C’s, Hawks, etc.) but likely nothing that blew him away. $34/1yr is still a lot to leave on the table, especially if there are only offers like 15-18M waiting for you.
- Hayward likely tho wanted to go to Indy and could have likely been nego-ing thru his agent. The few extra days the C’s agreed to extend the deadline was probably a courtesy to him. I think DA knew early on too that GH was already exploring

POST-OPT OUT
- on the 19th, Indy and Hayward wrapped up nego’s and settled on 100/4yr. It was now a matter of how to get Hayward there. Pretty much all the leaks come out (contract, etc) shortly too.
- other teams were likely informed too beforehand. When did the Hawks start signing people? And when did the Knicks admit they were likely out of the running? Was it just before all the serious Hayward-Indy news broke?
- C’s and Pacers start nego-ing. I think DA was fairly comfy negotiating this deal, especially post-opt out. In hindsight, he probably didn’t want to take back Turner and he didn’t mind if GH returned at 100/4. What would change his mind is getting something he actually wanted in return (Dipo/Warren). So, win-win for him

TALKS STALLED
- the talks stalled likely because the Pacers were unwilling to budge either
- I’m sure it was also laid out to GH that his best financial option might end up being back in Boston for 100/4 if the Pacers deal didn’t happen
- Hayward probably expressed frustration thru his agent (or his agent let other teams know that talks had stalled). Point is, it leaked that talks weren’t moving

- I think at this point, Charlotte made their move. I don’t know if GH’s agent triggered Charlotte or if someone in the Charlotte FO triggered a “plan B” type scenario but whatever it was, I think it was only after the talks stalled when all this happened
- I have to believe that Charlotte’s offer was always on the table but that it also likely wasn’t 120M.
- I think Charlotte had this scenario prepared and had the number they figured would push the C’s into luxury tax, betting that the C’s wouldn’t venture into that territory, especially with Tatum’s impending max
- Charlotte vs Boston at the same price, GH might’ve been indecisive. But Charlotte at a significant salary increase was likely a no-brainer for him

[Darth_Yoda]

Even though I was mad when I heard that Hayward was leaving, I don't blame Danny for not working out a trade with Indy because I think Charlotte would have always offered more and eventually got Gordon.

I blame Danny for not trading Gordon at the last deadline. I'm a big Danny defender but his asset management hasn't been great (having 3 max players walk and never being able to consolidate draft picks). Even though individual events can be explained but there is a troubling pattern there.

If we can get a big TPE from the Hayward trade I will wait to judge the situation until I see if they are able to use it for a quality player. After the big 3 were traded the Celtics had multiple firsts every year to rebuild. Now we won't have any firsts but our own for a while now. The degree of difficulty is about to increase for Danny but if Tatum and Brown continue to improve then Danny's moves won't be as important.

I couldn't disagree more. We were a Hayward ankle sprain away from the finals.

It's great to look back in hindsight and say that because Hayward got hurt trading him wouldn't have made a difference, but we had no way of knowing that at the time. And if he had traded Hayward at the deadline, only for the team to lose while struggling against the Heat's zone defense? People would just be here talking about how Ainge ruined our chance at the finals

The bolded is far from fact.

We might have lost to toronto with Hayward.

[Big333223]

RodyTur10, the only thing I hadn't heard was that it seemed like Boston wanted to divert Myles Turner to a third team.

Again and again, the bigs that Celtic fans fawn over Ainge seems disinterested in.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised Ainge was so reluctant to take on Turner. While the guy may not exactly be Marcus Smart on hustle, he’s still an effective shot blocker who can hit the three. Athletic enough, on a reasonable contract. I think if someone lit a fire under him, he could have taken his game to the next level.

Turner played with 4 of our guys on Team USA (where Popp routinely trusted Jaylen to defend bigs over him, btw). Perhaps the front office had all the intel they needed.

Here is one better, the Celtics and Pacer were looking for a third team to take Turner and was struggling to get it done.   

Makes you think his value (basically contract) is less to actual NBA teams then NBA fans.

I am happy, I did not want turner, would have forced myself to like him if Danny traded, but happy I dont need to.

I did want Turner but it sounds more and more like the Celtics didn't. I still think in the right situation Turner could be a lot better than he was last year but it sounds like the Celtics like Thompson better and I'm talking myself into it.

And if it turns out they're right (about Thompson being better than Turner) then this could all wind up looking good for the Celtics. We'll see.

[Tr1boy]

......what the what is taking so long?

As it stands, Hornets don't have to do anything but waive/stretch Batum (though that hurts the owners profit)

However they could be working hard to find a team to take Batum/and his salary for a future 2nd/Monk (my guess)

If such a team wants an additional 2nd,  perhaps this is where Danny comes in to help

And then Hornets scratch Dannys back and provide TPE for Hayward

I doubt that the Hornets want to stretch/waive Batum.  And then provide TPE relief for a measly 2nd from the Celts

This would be all easier for the Hornets if Celtics just take back Batum + 2nd/Monk  for the troubles

But then the Celts would be burdened by additional cap tax.