Just started to appreciate Gordon Hayward

[Darth_Yoda]

Team doesnt need "Veterans" to help Tatum and Brown continue to grow.

Already have Kemba who had the biggest impact so far in their growth of any vet they have played with.



And Gallo easily replaces Hayward, for 1.

No he doesn't. He doesn't replace the playmaking and the above average defense that Gordon gives us.

Tatum replaces the Playmaking.

The defense is not necessary off the bench from a scorer, Langford will provide bench defense with Grant Williams.


Last season:
Per 100 Assists - Turnovers
Kemba:  7.4 - 3.2 (7 - 2.5)
Smart: 7.3 - 2.6 (6 - 3.5)
Tatum: 4.3 - 3.3 (6 - 3.5)
Hayward: 6 - 2.7


Assist% - Turnover%
Kemba:  24.2% - 10.5%
Smart: 21.1% - 12.1%
Tatum: 14.5% - 10.2% (21.3% - 11.3% in playoffs)
Hayward: 18.7% - 11.2%

Huge improvements from Tatum in the playoffs, but even using his season numbers, Kemba was the best playmaker, Marcus the second best, and tatum right there close to Hayward for the 3rd best.

So we are talking about the necessity of replacing the 4th best playmaker on the team. (I am sure though that some will argue about Hayward and his Hockey assist)
Hayward was tied for second in the secondary assist on the team with Tatum but only 0.1 ahead of Smart, Wannamaker, Brown and Theis.
For potential assists Hayward was third on the team in the regular season, but 4th in the playoffs with Tatums numbers having exploded.

The fact that Hayward is even in the debate with two ball dominant guards does more to discredit your argument than anything. Of course those guys will have higher assist numbers. Doesn't make Hayward any less important as a secondary playmaker from the wing. Tatum getting there as a playmaker, but we need a bigger sample size. That playoffs run could just be a hot streak, for all we know. And defense is very important for every player on the court. It doesn't matter that some other player is a good defender; it irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

The debate is that if Hayward goes we have no secondary playmaker and would need one.

I showed that at best Hayward was the 3rd playmaker, not the secondary one. And looking at Tatums improvement in the playoffs, he would be the secondary playmaker, Smart the thrid playmaker and Hayward the 4th playmaker.

So if Hayward leaves team would need to replace the 3rd 4th playmaker. A decent PG in the draft can do that, an MLE signing PG can do that. Improvement from Brown or Romeo can do that, it is not an irreplaceable skill.

For his defense, he is a smart team defender, but Romeo does have the potential to be an excellent defender, so more time for Romeo along with health and improvement can replace Gordons defense.

Hayward is the 4th option on the team, that is all. 4th options are replaceable.

[JBcat]

There is no reasonable way to allow Tatum and Brown to continue to take more responsibility, to keep Kemba, and to give Hayward enough of a role. That is a failure.

Danny fails when he isn't willing to edit some. I want to keep Hayward. If we keep Kemba we will lose him.

I respectfully disagree.  Part of growing up as players is learning how to play with other very good players for the betterment of the team.  Think how Pierce, Allen, and KG all sacrificed for each other.  Their usuage rates are just fine and can continue to grow as players.  Also as Walker and Hayward age both being 30 now they will continue taking on less responsibility.

If anyone likes using this stat you can find on nba.com Hayward was part of the 3 player lineup along with Tatum and Smart that had the best net rating on the team.  In fact Hayward was part of the top 5 of 7 Net rating 3 player lineups on the team last season.

[johnnygreen]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

[Darth_Yoda]

There is no reasonable way to allow Tatum and Brown to continue to take more responsibility, to keep Kemba, and to give Hayward enough of a role. That is a failure.

Danny fails when he isn't willing to edit some. I want to keep Hayward. If we keep Kemba we will lose him.

I respectfully disagree.  Part of growing up as players is learning how to play with other very good players for the betterment of the team.  Think how Pierce, Allen, and KG all sacrificed for each other.  Their usuage rates are just fine and can continue to grow as players.  Also as Walker and Hayward age both being 30 now they will continue taking on less responsibility.

If anyone likes using this stat you can find on nba.com Hayward was part of the 3 player lineup along with Tatum and Smart that had the best net rating on the team.  In fact Hayward was part of the top 5 of 7 Net rating 3 player lineups on the team last season.

If we didnt have hayward and had Semi playing all his minutes it would be semi listed instead of Gordon.

Meaning, I would expect a top 4 player on the team to be included in the top 5 lineups.

[Kernewek]

I hope he sticks around.

I second that.  I think he is under appreciated by some fans.  His advanced stats shows how good he is individually, and how well the team plays with him.

   The worst of Boston fans comes out vs. Hayward. Blaming a guy for injuries is pathetic.

He hasn't been the player that he was in Utah. This year he started to show glimmers of his old self, but that happened to be during the last guaranteed year of the deal. He's been a massive overpay thus far because of the leg injury, but it's a really wicked combination of bad luck and worse timing all around.

[wdleehi]

There is no reasonable way to allow Tatum and Brown to continue to take more responsibility, to keep Kemba, and to give Hayward enough of a role. That is a failure.

Danny fails when he isn't willing to edit some. I want to keep Hayward. If we keep Kemba we will lose him.

I respectfully disagree.  Part of growing up as players is learning how to play with other very good players for the betterment of the team.  Think how Pierce, Allen, and KG all sacrificed for each other.  Their usuage rates are just fine and can continue to grow as players.  Also as Walker and Hayward age both being 30 now they will continue taking on less responsibility.

If anyone likes using this stat you can find on nba.com Hayward was part of the 3 player lineup along with Tatum and Smart that had the best net rating on the team.  In fact Hayward was part of the top 5 of 7 Net rating 3 player lineups on the team last season.

If we didnt have hayward and had Semi playing all his minutes it would be semi listed instead of Gordon.

Meaning, I would expect a top 4 player on the team to be included in the top 5 lineups.

So you are saying keep Semi?   Let him play Haywards minutes and he would be part of the best "3 player" lineups? 



Listening to you, the Celtics would be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for Hayward.   I know you want him traded, but the more you talk about the negatives, the less you could expect out of a trade.   It makes no sense. 


If there was an equivalent player out there at another position (big man), sure make a trade.   If he lets them know he wants to leave for another location, sure look to make a trade.   


But there is no point in making a trade just to make a trade.   He makes the team better.   The combination of him, Tatum and Brown make it hard for every team in the NBA to defend the Celtics. 

[footey]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Not sure I follow your point here.

[td450]

There is no reasonable way to allow Tatum and Brown to continue to take more responsibility, to keep Kemba, and to give Hayward enough of a role. That is a failure.

Danny fails when he isn't willing to edit some. I want to keep Hayward. If we keep Kemba we will lose him.

I respectfully disagree.  Part of growing up as players is learning how to play with other very good players for the betterment of the team.  Think how Pierce, Allen, and KG all sacrificed for each other.  Their usuage rates are just fine and can continue to grow as players.  Also as Walker and Hayward age both being 30 now they will continue taking on less responsibility.

If anyone likes using this stat you can find on nba.com Hayward was part of the 3 player lineup along with Tatum and Smart that had the best net rating on the team.  In fact Hayward was part of the top 5 of 7 Net rating 3 player lineups on the team last season.

Not buying this analysis. I've added this all up, and by my calculation, Pierce, Allen, and KG were three guys, not four. Adding another scorer to that would have been wasteful of their talents. Tatum and Brown are at a stage where the next step is to become dominant players, not good players. Kemba Walker isn't Paul Pierce. He's our 4th best offensive player and our 11th best defender.

[Atzar]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

16-17 Gordo, far and away that Jazz team's best offensive player, had the highest usage rate in his career at 27.6 - which was still only 27th in the NBA that season. 

He isn't a selfish player and he won't look to dominate the ball.  That's not Stevens favoring him or not.  That's just Hayward being Hayward.

[johnnygreen]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Not sure I follow your point here.

Hayward is a point forward, who can create offense for not only himself, but for his teammates. Can drive to the rim, pull up from mid-range, and shoot the 3. Tatum is proving to be an elite scorer that can also create his own shot. Jaylen is improving offensively, but needs others to create for him. Basically, I think Gordon is the team’s best overall offensive player, but Stevens maybe holding him back.

[Darth_Yoda]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Not sure I follow your point here.

Hayward is a point forward, who can create offense for not only himself, but for his teammates. Can drive to the rim, pull up from mid-range, and shoot the 3. Tatum is proving to be an elite scorer that can also create his own shot. Jaylen is improving offensively, but needs others to create for him. Basically, I think Gordon is the team’s best overall offensive player, but Stevens maybe holding him back.

WHAAAATTTT?

You are gonna need to back that one up.

[wdleehi]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Not sure I follow your point here.

Hayward is a point forward, who can create offense for not only himself, but for his teammates. Can drive to the rim, pull up from mid-range, and shoot the 3. Tatum is proving to be an elite scorer that can also create his own shot. Jaylen is improving offensively, but needs others to create for him. Basically, I think Gordon is the team’s best overall offensive player, but Stevens maybe holding him back.

WHAAAATTTT?

You are gonna need to back that one up.

I disagree with best overall offensive player.   I think you could say most well rounded.   I think you could also say he would be the best zone buster (when healthy)

But Tatum is clearly the best offensive player who will be better once he is more consistent. 

[footey]

I know many will probably disagree, but I think the perceived relationship between Stevens and Hayward has been a bad thing. I feel like Stevens has overcompensated in trying to seem like he doesn’t favor or give beneficial treatment to Hayward. Gordon is an elite playmaker, but Stevens doesn’t let him play like that. It seems like Stevens treats Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as almost interchangeable on the offensive end, which is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Not sure I follow your point here.

Hayward is a point forward, who can create offense for not only himself, but for his teammates. Can drive to the rim, pull up from mid-range, and shoot the 3. Tatum is proving to be an elite scorer that can also create his own shot. Jaylen is improving offensively, but needs others to create for him. Basically, I think Gordon is the team’s best overall offensive player, but Stevens maybe holding him back.

WHAAAATTTT?

You are gonna need to back that one up.

I disagree with best overall offensive player.   I think you could say most well rounded.   I think you could also say he would be the best zone buster (when healthy)

But Tatum is clearly the best offensive player who will be better once he is more consistent.

Gordon is our best system offensive player. Meaning he adheres to Brad's game plan better than the other players. It is the major reason we lost to the Heat. 

[JBcat]

There is no reasonable way to allow Tatum and Brown to continue to take more responsibility, to keep Kemba, and to give Hayward enough of a role. That is a failure.

Danny fails when he isn't willing to edit some. I want to keep Hayward. If we keep Kemba we will lose him.

I respectfully disagree.  Part of growing up as players is learning how to play with other very good players for the betterment of the team.  Think how Pierce, Allen, and KG all sacrificed for each other.  Their usuage rates are just fine and can continue to grow as players.  Also as Walker and Hayward age both being 30 now they will continue taking on less responsibility.

If anyone likes using this stat you can find on nba.com Hayward was part of the 3 player lineup along with Tatum and Smart that had the best net rating on the team.  In fact Hayward was part of the top 5 of 7 Net rating 3 player lineups on the team last season.

If we didnt have hayward and had Semi playing all his minutes it would be semi listed instead of Gordon.

Meaning, I would expect a top 4 player on the team to be included in the top 5 lineups.

Put another way in the top 7 list where Hayward is listed 5 times in the best net rating 3 man lineups, Tatum is listed 6 times which is what you expect, Walker 3, and Brown only 1.  So Hayward works very well with different combinations where his secondary ball handling and passing come in handy.  You see similar things if you adjust for 4 man and 5 man lineups, but it’s a smaller sample size with smaller amount of minutes to look at.

Edit: I adjusted it for a minimum of 450 minutes for groupings so we are talking about only our top 7 players, and to also limit noise with smaller sample sizes.

[Birdman]

Best free agent signing in years for the Celtics when it first happen..no one knew he would break his leg..do all over again, still sign him...but now, I think I pass with his injury and not at 4 years..