Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft - VOTES ARE IN

[Somebody]

Sorry nick, my guy is on the board so no trade.

With their 4th pick, the Toronto Raptors will select one of only two men to win the DPOY award 4 times (and the only one available to be drafted), Ben Wallace.

Wallace provides the Raptors some much needed elite defense. In addition to the 4 DPOY awards, Wallace was if not the best, certainly the most important player, on a NBA Champion.  Led the league in rebounding multiple times.  Wallace will be able to do the dirty work defensively allowing Malone to be less tired for his offensive workload and thus bringing the best out of the Mailman.

Edit: Still contemplating which season I'm going to use as there are several solid choices for him.

Wondered when Wallace would go.

BEst defensive center in the draft, imo, but the worst offensively.

Yep, but when you have multiple elite scorers on your team you can have a bad offensive player in the lineup.  Wallace also played on a team with a lot of very good offensive players and played his role well, so I think he will fit just fine.  Athletic, can run, and can clean up the boards.

Yeah he's one of the few defensive giants left in this draft. Certainly a good fit next to Malone imo.

[Who]

Here's a question: What position do you guys think Hawkins would be playing in today's game?

Personally speaking, I reckon he would have been an elite small-ball Center! After all, he played 2 seasons at Center in the ABA.

We were talking with Yoda about this yesterday. I believe he plans to use him at PF which would be a great choice too!

Sorry, I try this again.

I agree and believe Hawkins would be a PF in today's game.

But I believe he is a SF in this Historical League because of how much more big man talent there is. But maybe I am wrong. Maybe teams will be smaller than I expect. Maybe Connie can work at PF here as well.

[Darth_Yoda]

Here's a question: What position do you guys think Hawkins would be playing in today's game?

Personally speaking, I reckon he would have been an elite small-ball Center! After all, he played 2 seasons at Center in the ABA.

We were talking with Yoda about this yesterday. I believe he plans to use him at PF which would be a great choice too!

This was something I was questioning a lot prior to the draft.

I decided Hawkins was an out and out SF who could play some PF minutes. I didn't think he was physical enough to play PF against some of the beasts in this draft. He was more of a finesse defender whose interest in defense was up and down. When he was focused, he was destructive with his length particulary as a team defender. At other times, he let the game pass him by on D.

He was very thin. Sounds like he was malnourished as a child which may have effected his muscle mass. One could argue he'd have more mass today with proper weight training - maybe he would. Maybe he could be like Giannis and really fill out. Become a full time PF.

Then again, maybe he is just a skinny guy. Maybe his childhood poverty & undernourishment has long term implications on his muscle growth (not sure on accuracy of this but I have heard talked about with some brazilian soccer players like Rivaldo and why he struggle to put muscle on).

And even if he can put on the muscle, does he have the mentality to go and be physical? He looks more of a finesse & passive defender to me. Not a banger. Even if he has the body of Giannis, would he use it effectively? Or would he still play the finesse game?

In the end, I wasn't convinced which is why I didn't draft Hawkins as my PF next to Doc = which I thought long and hard about. I really wanted to do it. My dream team scenario was Gervin, Doc and Hawk 2 through 4. Run and gun 70s basketball.

All valid points.

But I will counter that Connie was 6foot8 210 lbs
Tatum is
6foot8 210 lbs.

I might give up some defensively, but I thijk offensively team will be peetty good.

 Hopefully get the bigger pfs(malone) in foul trouble making them defend out at the 3pt line

[RPGenerate]

With the 9th pick in Round 4 of the 2021 Historical Draft the Phoenix Suns select:



DEANDRE JORDAN

I've always had a hard time gauging how good of a defender DeAndre Jordan actually was, and if it was enough to offset his crippling deficiencies on offense.

[Somebody]

Here's a question: What position do you guys think Hawkins would be playing in today's game?

Personally speaking, I reckon he would have been an elite small-ball Center! After all, he played 2 seasons at Center in the ABA.

We were talking with Yoda about this yesterday. I believe he plans to use him at PF which would be a great choice too!

The ABA back then was even more of a forward's league than today - they were really barren in the big man department in the late 60s (they obviously got way better in the 70s, but the late 60s ABA was incredibly weak). I think Hawkins would've been a small ball 5 like Simmons - you don't want him playing there full-time, but he can play there in spurts very effectively. Definitely a SF who could play some PF in this draft.

[Jvalin]

Here's a question: What position do you guys think Hawkins would be playing in today's game?

Personally speaking, I reckon he would have been an elite small-ball Center! After all, he played 2 seasons at Center in the ABA.

We were talking with Yoda about this yesterday. I believe he plans to use him at PF which would be a great choice too!

This was something I was questioning a lot prior to the draft.

I decided Hawkins was an out and out SF who could play some PF minutes. I didn't think he was physical enough to play PF against some of the beasts in this draft. He was more of a finesse defender whose interest in defense was up and down. When he was focused, he was destructive with his length particulary as a team defender. At other times, he let the game pass him by on D.

He was very thin. Sounds like he was malnourished as a child which may have effected his muscle mass. One could argue he'd have more mass today with proper weight training - maybe he would. Maybe he could be like Giannis and really fill out. Become a full time PF.

Then again, maybe he is just a skinny guy. Maybe his childhood poverty & undernourishment has long term implications on his muscle growth (not sure on accuracy of this but I have heard talked about with some brazilian soccer players like Rivaldo and why he struggle to put muscle on).

And even if he can put on the muscle, does he have the mentality to go and be physical? He looks more of a finesse & passive defender to me. Not a banger. Even if he has the body of Giannis, would he use it effectively? Or would he still play the finesse game?

In the end, I wasn't convinced which is why I didn't draft Hawkins as my PF next to Doc = which I thought long and hard about. I really wanted to do it. My dream team scenario was Gervin, Doc and Hawk 2 through 4. Run and gun 70s basketball.

The ABA back then was even more of a forward's league than today - they were really barren in the big man department in the late 60s (they obviously got way better in the 70s, but the late 60s ABA was incredibly weak). I think Hawkins would've been a small ball 5 like Simmons - you don't want him playing there full-time, but he can play there in spurts very effectively. Definitely a SF who could play some PF in this draft.

TPs! You guys are more familiar with his game than I am.

[Who]

I am unsure about the Ben Wallace one.

I love the player and the draft value. I thought Ben would go late 2nd to mid 3rd round. So to get him mid 4th - that is great value.

On one hand, I love the idea of K.Malone and Big Ben together but that is more geared to 90s ball to mid-00s. Before the rule changes and shortly after but before teams had realized how to best exploit the rule changes.

I worry about picking a non-offensive threat at C allows teams to send easy double teams to Karl Malone in the low post. Karl Malone is single scariest matchup threat at PF in the league. You gotta have someone physically strong enough to matchup against him in the post.

But if you have a bad offensive center next to him, then you can send easy double teams and limit how much your team can punish them. Or switch the matchups and have the center guard Karl Malone. Allow teams to play smaller. Like with Connie Hawkins who can hide on Ben Wallace.

I thought Karl Malone needed an offensive center with an inside-outside game. Someone that strong enough as a scorer to force teams to stay big against you + is a good enough shooter to space the floor to give Karl Malone space to exploit his physical power as an advantage over everyone.

[Who]

Is it my pick?

Did we miss a pick? I have only 8 guys selected this round. Did I miss someone?

Terry Porter, Mookie Blaylock, Dan Majerle, Sabonis, Ben Wallace, Connie Hawkins, DeAndre Jordan, Tim Hardaway. 8 guys. Did I miss a pick?

[Jvalin]

Is it my pick?

Did we miss a pick? I have only 8 guys selected this round. Did I miss someone?

Terry Porter, Mookie Blaylock, Dan Majerle, Sabonis, Ben Wallace, Connie Hawkins, DeAndre Jordan, Tim Hardaway. 8 guys. Did I miss a pick?

+ Dennis Johnson

Yeah, you have the next pick.

[Moranis]

The Raptors are really liking how the team is coming together

PG - Tiny
SG -
SF - Peja
PF - Mailman
C - Big Ben

I've got a few idea for rounding out the starting 5 and a couple of potential 6th men I think would be great for their flexibility.

Also, any thoughts on which Wallace season I should use.  I've really only eliminated the 05 season from his 5 year run (and even then maybe I shouldn't have).  04 is the title year but is the one year he didn't actually win DPOY in the 5 year period and that was his worst offensive season (and his rpg and bpg dropped from the prior two also).  02 was his most efficient scoring and the only time he led the league in both rebounding and shot blocking, but the Pistons weren't nearly as good as a team (lost to the Toine/PP C's in 5 in the ECS) in part because I don't think Wallace had really reached his peak level yet.  03 and 06 he was more efficient scoring than 04 and the team was good (ECF both those years), but by 06 he had lost some explosiveness and 03 I don't think he was quite at peak level yet.  Lots of options on which season to use and I'm just having a hard time figuring it out (the other 3 guys were pretty easy to decide).

[Who]

Ahh, Dennis Johnson. That is who I am forgetting.

It is my pick. Okay.

[Who]

The Chicago Bulls select Drazen Petrovic pick 3.10

G: Mark Price
G: Drazen Petrovic
F: Julius Erving
F: Shawn Kemp

Two big time shooters & two big time dunkers

[Somebody]

I am unsure about the Ben Wallace one.

I love the player and the draft value. I thought Ben would go late 2nd to mid 3rd round. So to get him mid 4th - that is great value.

On one hand, I love the idea of K.Malone and Big Ben together but that is more geared to 90s ball to mid-00s. Before the rule changes and shortly after but before teams had realized how to best exploit the rule changes.

I worry about picking a non-offensive threat at C allows teams to send easy double teams to Karl Malone in the low post. Karl Malone is single scariest matchup threat at PF in the league. You gotta have someone physically strong enough to matchup against him in the post.

But if you have a bad offensive center next to him, then you can send easy double teams and limit how much your team can punish them. Or switch the matchups and have the center guard Karl Malone. Allow teams to play smaller. Like with Connie Hawkins who can hide on Ben Wallace.

I thought Karl Malone needed an offensive center with an inside-outside game. Someone that strong enough as a scorer to force teams to stay big against you + is a good enough shooter to space the floor to give Karl Malone space to exploit his physical power as an advantage over everyone.

I do agree that having Big Ben out there will allow teams to double Malone, but Karl (unlike Moses) was a very good passer:

By the early ’90s, Malone could distribute well, especially against single-coverage in the post, where he had time to spot cutters like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXe89l-4aJc

He occasionally missed some passes too, especially outside the confines of the post. In the clip below, an extra pass would have netted teammate Thurl Bailey a layup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4Ormh-61k0

These blindspots were more prevalent in the early years, when Malone was by no means a great passer. But in time, he blossomed into a top-shelf distributor, nearly doubling his rate of “good” or “elite” passes after 1994 in my sampling; Malone jumped from about 2 “good” passes per 100 to an outstanding 4 per 100, on par with the frequency of quality passes slung by Stockton. This coincided with increased creation rates — as his game moved away from the basket, Malone morphed from a reactive finisher to a patient creator, upping his creation to about 4 per 100 in the games I sampled, inline with his estimated Box Creation.

Here, Malone finds the elite pass in a tight window, a completion that few players can hit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL8LrzIaATk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl8zxCfRlME

Malone still missed some tight passes, but many of his dishes over the last 10 years of his career bordered on spectacular. While his assist and creation rates don’t jump off the page, they were often high-leverage passes like the ones above.

Having a weaker defender hide on Wallace is interesting though, I can certainly see this hurting the team's offence. Do think that the defensive boost he gives to Moranis' squad dwarfs those shortcomings though.

[Somebody]

The Chicago Bulls select Drazen Petrovic pick 3.10

G: Mark Price
G: Drazen Petrovic
F: Julius Erving
F: Shawn Kemp

Two big time shooters & two big time dunkers

Lots of offence on that squad, Drazen can definitely light it up with Price and Erving creating for him.

[Moranis]

I am unsure about the Ben Wallace one.

I love the player and the draft value. I thought Ben would go late 2nd to mid 3rd round. So to get him mid 4th - that is great value.

On one hand, I love the idea of K.Malone and Big Ben together but that is more geared to 90s ball to mid-00s. Before the rule changes and shortly after but before teams had realized how to best exploit the rule changes.

I worry about picking a non-offensive threat at C allows teams to send easy double teams to Karl Malone in the low post. Karl Malone is single scariest matchup threat at PF in the league. You gotta have someone physically strong enough to matchup against him in the post.

But if you have a bad offensive center next to him, then you can send easy double teams and limit how much your team can punish them. Or switch the matchups and have the center guard Karl Malone. Allow teams to play smaller. Like with Connie Hawkins who can hide on Ben Wallace.

I thought Karl Malone needed an offensive center with an inside-outside game. Someone that strong enough as a scorer to force teams to stay big against you + is a good enough shooter to space the floor to give Karl Malone space to exploit his physical power as an advantage over everyone.

Fair point, though I think Malone and Tiny running the PnR with Peja bombing 3's for kick outs will make it hard to double up Malone, however even if Malone is doubled, he is a darn good passer and you are going to leave Wallace wide open for offensive rebounds even if there is a miss.  You can't really leave the 2nd best rebounder in this draft open and not boxed out or you will never get a defensive rebound.