Author Topic: Thinking Outside of the Box: Tatum, Brown and Adding a Shutdown Defensive Bigman  (Read 1537 times)

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Online Csfan1984

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?

Offline Somebody

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?
To be fair AD isn't even close to Jokic's class as an offensive player.

Offline Jvalin

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Basically the idea is to swap 2 max/near-max contracts. With all due respect, how is this an outside-the-box idea?

Gobert is about to hit free agency in 2021. I bet he'll ask for the max. All it takes is one desperate team to make him one desperate offer. Tatum's max kicks in in 2021 as well. Are we going to re-sign Gobert?

- If we do, the tax bill will explode through the roof. Haven't put down the numbers, but the C's would become one of the most expensive teams in NBA history. I really don't think Wyc would be willing to pay that big of a tax, especially in the midst of the pandemic.

- If we don't, we would have dumped Hayward + ''multiple first-round picks'' for a one-year rental of Gobert.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 08:52:08 AM by Jvalin »

Online mobilija

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?
To be fair AD isn't even close to Jokic's class as an offensive player.

Thatís Fair?!? Is the gap really that big? What is your ranking of top offensive big men?


Offline Moranis

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Has there been anything to suggest that either Utah would want Hayward or that Hayward would even consider sticking around?

Looks really awful to trade a guy to the team he left to join you in free agency

In this case, thereís a sense that Hayward would have re-signed with Utah but we had his college coach. Ordinarily Iíd agree itís awful to trade a guy to the team he left, but not in this case if Hayward and Stevens were ok with the trade.

Think itís also pretty obvious why Utah would be happy to have Hayward back, especially if dealing Gobert keeps Mitchell happy and they get some first-round picks to add to the Mitchell/Hayward show.
except Hayward signed in Charlotte during his first free agency, which Utah matched.  Hayward has never shown a desire to play in Utah.

He wanted to be paired with MJ and Kemba back then.
Or maybe he just wanted out of Utah, which seems to match the stories that have been out there for years.  He hated playing in Utah.
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SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
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Offline droopdog7

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None of these trades make any sense from the Utah perspective. 

Offline dannyboy35

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
    Iíve changed my mind on Turner as well. Heís talented but there is motivation issues. His energy sometimes just stinks and while itís not a pouty Kyrie thing at all. Itís like.. a Jeff green thing. To give up a talent of Hayward Iíd be a lot more comfortable with a guy whoís a go getter. I want an aggressive player. I fear Turnerís  lack of energy and not knowing when itís gonna be there kinda hurts a team . Again, not a bad guy but I think it could effect the team.

Offline Somebody

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?
To be fair AD isn't even close to Jokic's class as an offensive player.
Thatís Fair?!? Is the gap really that big? What is your ranking of top offensive big men?
I do think the gap is pretty significant, Jokic is an MVP level attacker while AD is more of an All-Star/fringe All-NBAer on that end.

As for my ranking of top offensive bigs:
1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Towns (he'll dominate in the playoffs when he eventually makes it again)
4. AD
AD is a distant fourth to me, he can't lead strong offences like the three ahead of him. Great 1B/2 guy though, which is still very valuable. Add in incredible defence and you have a top 4-6 player in the league depending on how Curry and Durant bounce back.

Offline Jvalin

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?
To be fair AD isn't even close to Jokic's class as an offensive player.
Thatís Fair?!? Is the gap really that big? What is your ranking of top offensive big men?
I do think the gap is pretty significant, Jokic is an MVP level attacker while AD is more of an All-Star/fringe All-NBAer on that end.

As for my ranking of top offensive bigs:
1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Towns (he'll dominate in the playoffs when he eventually makes it again)
4. AD
AD is a distant fourth to me, he can't lead strong offences like the three ahead of him. Great 1B/2 guy though, which is still very valuable. Add in incredible defence and you have a top 4-6 player in the league depending on how Curry and Durant bounce back.
No Embiid in the top 4? I'd probably put him at #3 behind Jokic and KAT.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 03:37:45 PM by Jvalin »

Online gouki88

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?
To be fair AD isn't even close to Jokic's class as an offensive player.
Thatís Fair?!? Is the gap really that big? What is your ranking of top offensive big men?
I do think the gap is pretty significant, Jokic is an MVP level attacker while AD is more of an All-Star/fringe All-NBAer on that end.

As for my ranking of top offensive bigs:
1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Towns (he'll dominate in the playoffs when he eventually makes it again)
4. AD
AD is a distant fourth to me, he can't lead strong offences like the three ahead of him. Great 1B/2 guy though, which is still very valuable. Add in incredible defence and you have a top 4-6 player in the league depending on how Curry and Durant bounce back.
No Embiid in the top 4? I'd probably put him at #3 behind Jokic and KAT.
I think Embiid's lack of passing really hurts him, which is even more exposed in the playoffs. Whereas Jokic is one of if not the best passing big of all time, Giannis is a good passer, KAT is a good passer and Davis is a pretty solid passer

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Basically the idea is to swap 2 max/near-max contracts. With all due respect, how is this an outside-the-box idea?

The outside of the box idea is thinking an upgrade on defense in the front-court, not trying to upgrade our offense by dealing Brown (think of the idea of Brown for Beal).

Iíd love to hear other outside-of-the-box ideas, not just deliberation on Gobert. Iím particularly interested in any up-and-coming big man defenders on cost-controlled contracts.

So many of you just donít have any ideas and seem to think doing the same thing as last year is somehow going to lead to better results. Thatís not what Miami, Phlly and Milwaukee are doing. And thereís a very low chance of more of the same getting us past LAL who do have the luxury of doing more of the same and likely repeating.

Quote
Gobert is about to hit free agency in 2021. I bet he'll ask for the max. All it takes is one desperate team to make him one desperate offer. Tatum's max kicks in in 2021 as well. Are we going to re-sign Gobert?

If we trade for Gobert, absolutely we try re-sign him to be a part of our ongoing Big Three with Tatum and Brown.

Quote
If we do, the tax bill will explode through the roof.

Kemba would not be hitting the books anymore than 1-2 additional years. You deal him if he drops off in his third season with us. If you win in 2020-2021 and 2021-2022, you pay the taxes just like Golden State did, so the worldwide revenue from being a juggernaut more than offsets the taxes.

Quote
- If we don't, we would have dumped Hayward + ''multiple first-round picks'' for a one-year rental of Gobert.

Frankly, Iím willing to trade Hayward and our 2020 first-round picks for a single championship year with Gobert, too. Itís better than losing in the NBA Finals to the Lakers or yet-again losing the ECF with a bunch of bench-warming rookies. So many people so absurdly overrate draft picks outside of the top 3.

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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None of these trades make any sense from the Utah perspective.

They potentially do if itís true that Mitchell wants Gobert gone in 2020-2021.

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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For outside the box try a better group effort. Upgrade the bench and improve the starting line up. I'd sign Favors with the MLE but before that do a three way trade.

C's trade Hayward, picks 26, 30, 47 and VP
C's get Myles Turner and Terrence Ross.

Pacers trade Turner
Pacers get Aaron Gordon, VP and pick 30.

Magic trade Gordon and Ross
Magic get Hayward, picks 26 and 47.

C's end up with a center that fits and bench is upgraded.

Pacers get a better PF fit for Sabonis plus a 1st.

Magic get a better SF fit, a first, and second. Also if they don't like the fit Hayward is expiring so it can equal cap space the next year.

All three teams win.

C's end up as
PG-Walker, Smart, Edwards
SG-Brown, Langford, Green*
SF-Tatum, Ross, Semi*
PF-Theis, GW, pick 14*
C-Turner, Favors, TL

You could be flexible start Smart at times or Theis. Without a doubt you are 9 deep. Also all the bigs in the main rotation (Turner, Favors, GW and Theis) have some mobility and range game to not clog things up. I like it as a group effort.
not digging that trade.  Not against moving on from Hayward at this point and I was a big Turner fan during his draft and for his first few years in the league but he's not developed past that point.   Seeing Turner as fool's gold at this point ==> rotational big man that won't be a better starter than Theis for us and will need continuous motivation to play with effort.
Competing for a chip and playing here might motivate Turner more. Also as I said it's about a group effort. Throwing a bunch of guys at an AD, Embiid or Bam. Trying to find one guy who can handle them isn't likely. As evidence of Nuggets and Heat. You need a bunch of guys to take down AD one won't do. You need a bunch to go against the 76ers if Simmons is healthy too. We should stock up instead of getting one guy who won't get it done anyways.

Disagree. Gobert was defensive player of the year 2017-2019 and would have won it this year if not for being NBA patient zero. If we want to stop Giannis and then AD, we need an NBA first/second team all-defender big. Gobert is the only one I can see who can pull it off more often than not in a seven game series.
If Gobert can't stop Jokic from going off how is he supposed to stop AD?

Gobert slowed down Jokic, keeping him below 30 points in 5 of 7 games and below 32 in all 7 games. Not a lot of people get to watch Jokic because heís in Denver, but heís the best offensive big man in the game today, and second only to Giannis in terms of best overall big man. Without the Stifle Tower, thatís not a seven game series.

With Murray coming into his own, I wonít be the least bit surprised if the Nuggets dethrone the Lakers. In all likelihood, we need someone who can slowdown Jokic or AD If we hope to win the championship next year.

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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What about this: A three-way deal involving Hayward that gets us Horford again and the 76ers someone they would prefer? Maybe the Clippers would be interested in taking in Hayward and in return giving Doc 2-3 of his guys? Big Al could maybe still slow things down enough for us, and he is still missed...

Online gouki88

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None of these trades make any sense from the Utah perspective.

They potentially do if itís true that Mitchell wants Gobert gone in 2020-2021.
Which by all reports it isn't