2020 Historic Draft: How’s My Team Look: Conference Finals winners announced!!

[Somebody]

I would prefer Iverson over D-Rose talent wise. On a normal IRL team, I'd pick Iverson over Rose. Iverson was unstoppable. Rose was stoppable (as shown in playoffs against strong D).

On teams loaded with talent like these, I prefer Rose. I think he is easier to play with. Doesn't over-dribble as much / dominate the ball or flow of the offense as much. Plus, Rose is a much better defender.

I do have some offensive concerns with D-Rose (along with other high scoring guards with so-so jump-shots) but not as severe as my issues with Iverson.

My main issue with Iverson is how do you build a team around him? That is very hard. I can see D-Rose functioning in a few teams but Iverson is tougher. Despite the incredible talent that he has.

How do you create offensive balance and teamwork with Iverson ad-libbing / free-styling so much? Defensive balance is easy enough to accomplish. He just needs to defend PGs. But offensive balance is tricky.

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

I wouldn't call Iverson unstoppable. I think a guy who regularly had a FG% in the low 40's(and sometimes high 30's), a 3PT% in the mid to high 20's, an eFG% in the mid 40's and a TS% in the low 50's isn't unstoppable.

What Iverson was was relentless in his pursuit of offense and unconscious in his ability to gauge a good shot. His unreal handle, speed and quickness made him a joy to watch up until he shot the ball where 25-40% of the time you winced thinking what a stupidly bad shot he just took.

Iverson was relentless. Not unstoppable.

And credit to him, he did play great in All-Star games and played well with other stars in those games, so maybe in this exercise he would meld better than some think.

Yeah I think we are saying the same thing. Just using different words. I would use unstoppable for low medium efficiency scorer as I would a high efficiency scorer. I would just rate one above the other. Iverson would rate lower than most here.

With Rose in 2011, you just knew Miami could take him out of the series by putting Wade or LeBron on him. A quick defensively able wing with good team D. Force him to shoot jumpers. And he was gone. Rose was young and this was fixable with time and hard work but injuries robbed him of the chance to do that.

Iverson meanwhile could have kept scoring against that Miami team. He simply was more creative and more versatile as an offensive player. He was great at using off-ball screens. He used them setup catch and shoot opportunities and to create dribble drive opportunities. Iverson had a better jump-shot. And I think he was even quicker than Rose off the bounce.

That is what allowed that relentless nature to have some success. That extra versatility in his scoring / shot creation. That is what made him so tough (impossible in my view) to game-plan out of games the way you could with D-Rose.

--------------------------------------------

I also think FG% and TS% of guys like Iverson deflates their offensive value because it ignores / fails to capture his passing & playmaking. How he created opportunities for others.

Few shooting guards can come close to Iverson in terms of volume playmaking for his teammates. It was a huge weapon for him offensively.

For that reason, I believe Iverson's total offensive value is considerably higher than his scoring efficiency would indicate.

I certainly rate his lead guard playmaking pretty highly - it was above average even for point guards (although it wasn't anywhere close to elite). His extra passing was pretty poor though, his passing stats all dipped when he moved to Denver and assumed a less ball dominant role.

[Who]

I would prefer Iverson over D-Rose talent wise. On a normal IRL team, I'd pick Iverson over Rose. Iverson was unstoppable. Rose was stoppable (as shown in playoffs against strong D).

On teams loaded with talent like these, I prefer Rose. I think he is easier to play with. Doesn't over-dribble as much / dominate the ball or flow of the offense as much. Plus, Rose is a much better defender.

I do have some offensive concerns with D-Rose (along with other high scoring guards with so-so jump-shots) but not as severe as my issues with Iverson.

My main issue with Iverson is how do you build a team around him? That is very hard. I can see D-Rose functioning in a few teams but Iverson is tougher. Despite the incredible talent that he has.

How do you create offensive balance and teamwork with Iverson ad-libbing / free-styling so much? Defensive balance is easy enough to accomplish. He just needs to defend PGs. But offensive balance is tricky.

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Iverson had by far his two most efficient seasons (or season and a half) when he was playing with Carmelo Anthony.  I think his inability to adapt or play in this type of situation has been unfairly criticized.  when he was on a team with another great scorer, he shot less, took better shots, etc. and his efficiency went up significantly (he still got to the line and he actually shot a similar amount of 3 pointers he just made them at a much higher clip).  Part of the reason his efficiency was so low for much of his career, is he was burdened with such an incredible offensive load and was basically the entire offensive focus.  I mean he was the only even average scorer on the Sixers team he took the Finals (and basically all of those Sixer teams).  The rotation in the Finals was downright awful offensively, as such AI had to do the heavy lifting.  I mean seriously Mutombo might have been the 2nd best offensive player on that Finals team.  Mutombo offensive player.  I mean think about that.

I would put a lot of that offensive improvement down to the rules changing. The hand checking laws loosening up. That started in 2005 as Iverson was in the final years of his prime and it gave a glimpse of how much Iverson's scoring efficiency could improve in today's NBA which allows far less contact than the league did in 2005-2008 + has more spaced out offenses.

I do agree having more talented offensive teammates helped as well but the rule changes is a huge factor in my eyes.

I would say the hand-checking & physical defense - the pounding that opponents put on Iverson - was a huge factor in his low scoring efficiency. The era he played in. Compared to today's era where none of that can happen anymore.


--------------

When I look at Iverson's years in Denver, I look at those teams as dependent on (can't say his name yet - backup quality low usage starting PG). They needed this PG to play in order to make sure the big men were touching the ball often enough because Melo & Iverson would too often go into a "my turn / your turn" offense and ignore the bigs. Then the unhappy bigs was stop playing with the right level of effort on defense & on the boards. So they needed this PG out there to keep the bigs engaged and happy so that they would defend and rebound.

My lessons from this are:

(1) Don't put Iverson with another self-centered scorer. Combine him with a more team orientated scorer (Dirk) or facilitating big (KG).

(2) Make sure Iverson is not the PG. He needs to play SG on offense and PG on defense. So you need a versatile PG who is comfortable off the ball on offense and defending wings on defense.

-------------------------------

My main point of comparison for Iverson (in this Historical League) is his time with Team USA. I did not like how he played. He gave it everything he had - no questions of his commitment or intentions - but he simply did not know how to play on a team that did not revolve around him / let him do what he wanted.

He was a shadow of the player he was capable of being. He did not know what to do or when to do it. So many mental mistakes (on offense).

Not the incredible unstoppable star we had seen him be when he had his team revolve around his talents.

---------------------------

And this is the question for all the players in this league, how good can you be when your team no longer solely revolves around him?

How good are you when not in your best situation?

How adaptable / versatile is your game?

Not just Iverson. Everyone.

[Somebody]

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Yeah, that’s my concern.  On a lesser level, we used to have that debate every year in the CB draft about Monta Ellis. The guy was so talented, but every time he was drafted his fit was questions. It eventually turned into a discussion of, is it possible to construct a team that Ellis does fit on?  I think the answer was no.

Iverson is like super Monta Ellis, with way more heart.  He’s amazingly talented, But he is tough to build around. That’s why he fell so far, and that’s why even on a team as talented as Don’s, there is still a debate regarding where he belongs.

I think there's an absolute ceiling for an AI-powered offence - there's only so much you can do to build around a low efficiency lead guard who wasn't anything special as a passer and doesn't have any great additive offensive skills to write home about.

To me there are two superior players in this draft who can solve that conundrum somewhat - KG and KD. Both of them can raise the ceiling of an AI quarterbacked offence with their shooting, passing and creation as "second options" (I'm more confident in KG due to his unselfishness and passing, but KD could coexist with AI well enough). But besides those two, I think the best way is to surround AI with versatile offensive players - players who can create on the ball but also work off ball just as well to provide as much additive value as they can to the offence.

[nickagneta]

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Yeah, that’s my concern.  On a lesser level, we used to have that debate every year in the CB draft about Monta Ellis. The guy was so talented, but every time he was drafted his fit was questions. It eventually turned into a discussion of, is it possible to construct a team that Ellis does fit on?  I think the answer was no.

Iverson is like super Monta Ellis, with way more heart.  He’s amazingly talented, But he is tough to build around. That’s why he fell so far, and that’s why even on a team as talented as Don’s, there is still a debate regarding where he belongs.

OMG, the CB Draft Ellis debates. Wasn't there a kid, who happened to act like a young Triboy but wasn't Triboy, who actually drafted or traded for a backcourt that had Ellis and Iverson starters. Then he got all mad when his team finished last.

[gouki88]

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Yeah, that’s my concern.  On a lesser level, we used to have that debate every year in the CB draft about Monta Ellis. The guy was so talented, but every time he was drafted his fit was questions. It eventually turned into a discussion of, is it possible to construct a team that Ellis does fit on?  I think the answer was no.

Iverson is like super Monta Ellis, with way more heart.  He’s amazingly talented, But he is tough to build around. That’s why he fell so far, and that’s why even on a team as talented as Don’s, there is still a debate regarding where he belongs.

OMG, the CB Draft Ellis debates. Wasn't there a kid, who happened to act like a young Triboy but wasn't Triboy, who actually drafted or traded for a backcourt that had Ellis and Iverson starters. Then he got all mad when his team finished last.

Wow, that back-court is something else. They'd be unstoppable on 2K, rofl.

[Moranis]

I would prefer Iverson over D-Rose talent wise. On a normal IRL team, I'd pick Iverson over Rose. Iverson was unstoppable. Rose was stoppable (as shown in playoffs against strong D).

On teams loaded with talent like these, I prefer Rose. I think he is easier to play with. Doesn't over-dribble as much / dominate the ball or flow of the offense as much. Plus, Rose is a much better defender.

I do have some offensive concerns with D-Rose (along with other high scoring guards with so-so jump-shots) but not as severe as my issues with Iverson.

My main issue with Iverson is how do you build a team around him? That is very hard. I can see D-Rose functioning in a few teams but Iverson is tougher. Despite the incredible talent that he has.

How do you create offensive balance and teamwork with Iverson ad-libbing / free-styling so much? Defensive balance is easy enough to accomplish. He just needs to defend PGs. But offensive balance is tricky.

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Iverson had by far his two most efficient seasons (or season and a half) when he was playing with Carmelo Anthony.  I think his inability to adapt or play in this type of situation has been unfairly criticized.  when he was on a team with another great scorer, he shot less, took better shots, etc. and his efficiency went up significantly (he still got to the line and he actually shot a similar amount of 3 pointers he just made them at a much higher clip).  Part of the reason his efficiency was so low for much of his career, is he was burdened with such an incredible offensive load and was basically the entire offensive focus.  I mean he was the only even average scorer on the Sixers team he took the Finals (and basically all of those Sixer teams).  The rotation in the Finals was downright awful offensively, as such AI had to do the heavy lifting.  I mean seriously Mutombo might have been the 2nd best offensive player on that Finals team.  Mutombo offensive player.  I mean think about that.

I would put a lot of that offensive improvement down to the rules changing. The hand checking laws loosening up. That started in 2005 as Iverson was in the final years of his prime and it gave a glimpse of how much Iverson's scoring efficiency could improve in today's NBA which allows far less contact than the league did in 2005-2008 + has more spaced out offenses.

I do agree having more talented offensive teammates helped as well but the rule changes is a huge factor in my eyes.

I would say the hand-checking & physical defense - the pounding that opponents put on Iverson - was a huge factor in his low scoring efficiency. The era he played in. Compared to today's era where none of that can happen anymore.


--------------

When I look at Iverson's years in Denver, I look at those teams as dependent on (can't say his name yet - backup quality low usage starting PG). They needed this PG to play in order to make sure the big men were touching the ball often enough because Melo & Iverson would too often go into a "my turn / your turn" offense and ignore the bigs. Then the unhappy bigs was stop playing with the right level of effort on defense & on the boards. So they needed this PG out there to keep the bigs engaged and happy so that they would defend and rebound.

My lessons from this are:

(1) Don't put Iverson with another self-centered scorer. Combine him with a more team orientated scorer (Dirk) or facilitating big (KG).

(2) Make sure Iverson is not the PG. He needs to play SG on offense and PG on defense. So you need a versatile PG who is comfortable off the ball on offense and defending wings on defense.

-------------------------------

My main point of comparison for Iverson (in this Historical League) is his time with Team USA. I did not like how he played. He gave it everything he had - no questions of his commitment or intentions - but he simply did not know how to play on a team that did not revolve around him / let him do what he wanted.

He was a shadow of the player he was capable of being. He did not know what to do or when to do it. So many mental mistakes (on offense).

Not the incredible unstoppable star we had seen him be when he had his team revolve around his talents.

---------------------------

And this is the question for all the players in this league, how good can you be when your team no longer solely revolves around him?

How good are you when not in your best situation?

How adaptable / versatile is your game?

Not just Iverson. Everyone.

I think a lot of this is fair, though the rules had changed before AI went to Denver and were the same after he left Denver, and yet his 3PT%, TS%, etc. were significantly higher in Denver than anywhere else.  I think that really is teammate centered as much as anything. 

As for a team with AI, I don't think it would be all that hard to easily find a team that could be crafted here that would fit for AI.  Somebody is right that either KG or KD (as a 1st round pick in this) would work well with AI.  I think someone like Shaq would as well.  Shaq worked great with poorer shooting high volume guards throughout his entire career (Penny, Kobe, Wade). So any of those 3 would be fine.  I think you give him a versatile defensive guard, a quality shooting "swing", and a defensive oriented big, and then a 2nd scorer and you'd have a great team that would fit with AI. 

So if you had Durant, Klay, Big Ben, and Horford (all available when Who selected as an example) with AI, I think you'd have an incredible team that would work well with AI's strengths and not harm anyone else's. 

[Who]

When I was thinking about drafting Dirk in the first round, Iverson was the #1 guy I wanted to pair with him. I thought those two would have a devastating two man game.

I never got a clear idea of who I wanted next to them though. One idea was Embiid, Artest and Iggy. Another was Big Ben, Ray Allen and Iggy.

I kept coming back to Iggy! Not sure why. I guess I liked the idea of him as makeshift big PG. Chauncey Billups actually would have been awesome. Billups - Iverson - Dirk. A two way wing and a defensive big. Maybe I should have thought more about Scottie Pippen. That would've been interesting.

But yeah, in my mind AI was a clear 2nd round pick. An awkward one (but so were others - Dirk is awkward on defense) but certainly a 2nd round pick.

[GreenFaith1819]

When I was thinking about drafting Dirk in the first round, Iverson was the #1 guy I wanted to pair with him. I thought those two would have a devastating two man game.

I never got a clear idea of who I wanted next to them though. One idea was Embiid, Artest and Iggy. Another was Big Ben, Ray Allen and Iggy.

I kept coming back to Iggy! Not sure why. I guess I liked the idea of him as makeshift big PG. Chauncey Billups actually would have been awesome. Billups - Iverson - Dirk. A two way wing and a defensive big. Maybe I should have thought more about Scottie Pippen. That would've been interesting.

But yeah, in my mind AI was a clear 2nd round pick. An awkward one (but so were others - Dirk is awkward on defense) but certainly a 2nd round pick.

I think Shaq and Dirk are such Unicorns in that you have to be careful who to pair them with.

I honestly recalled the Twin Towers of Sampson and Olajuwon of the 80s when I thought about Dirk and Embiid...

Dirk being a Rich Man's Sampson (less defensively, though) and Embiid reminding me of Olajuwon.

Dirk "did" average a block a game throughout his career so I don't think of him as a total sieve on defense.

[Somebody]

Just watched game 3 of the Spurs/Suns series in 2000 and Who is right - Robinson showed his athleticism in flashes (although he showed up more often than not). I was surprised by how much the Suns set screens for their guards, they were setting it often enough for me to see around a dozen PnR possessions with Robinson as the big defender. I think Robinson would have issues in the PnR if he had to play heavy minutes and carry a heavy offensive load: he was caught standing around in some of those plays (he was without Duncan in that series so he had to play a lot of minutes and carry the bulk of the offensive load). But he was able to stay in front of guards and prevent them from turning the corner on him when he was locked in and engaged, I think he'll do fine in this format with a super sub in Divac who can play 15-20 minutes per game (side note: Divac was a pretty good PnR defender), ntm his offensive role on my squad will be as an extra passer/finisher/floor spacer/screen setter so he can focus on the defensive end.

Link to the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBeVjAFYvA

[Moranis]

When I was thinking about drafting Dirk in the first round, Iverson was the #1 guy I wanted to pair with him. I thought those two would have a devastating two man game.

I never got a clear idea of who I wanted next to them though. One idea was Embiid, Artest and Iggy. Another was Big Ben, Ray Allen and Iggy.

I kept coming back to Iggy! Not sure why. I guess I liked the idea of him as makeshift big PG. Chauncey Billups actually would have been awesome. Billups - Iverson - Dirk. A two way wing and a defensive big. Maybe I should have thought more about Scottie Pippen. That would've been interesting.

But yeah, in my mind AI was a clear 2nd round pick. An awkward one (but so were others - Dirk is awkward on defense) but certainly a 2nd round pick.

Yeah Dirk would have worked well with AI as well. 

It is fair to question how AI would fit, but I think he has been unfairly singled out.  This is a guy that for much of his career never had any quality offensive talents around him and his efficiency suffered a great deal as a result.  But when he played with Anthony for a season and a half, his efficiency went up quite a bit.  He was also very good in all star games and team USA settings.  In Denver, AI was certainly not uber elite from an efficiency standpoint, but still very good (especially considering he still had a good volume).  He was also shooting over 34% from deep in Denver, which is plenty good enough, especially given how good he was at getting to the line (where he was a respectable 80% or so). 

Clearly those drafting here didn't think highly of AI, but he went behind significantly inferior players and I think he was the steal of the draft.  You use his full Denver season and Dons got late 2nd or early 3rd round value in the 6th round.  Best selection of the draft.  I also think Dons team with Davis, Marion, and McGrady would work well with AI (obviously Ratliff would as well since you know they played together several seasons).  Going later, I think McCollum is a pretty darn running mate as well.  I'd almost go small if I were Dons and play an uber uptempo style with Davis, Griffin, McGrady, Iverson, and McCollum starting (West would work well instead of Blake as well), and then for a change of pace use Ming, Marion, Battier, House, etc. (team needs some more guards). 

I really like how Dons put his team together later in the draft after not being a huge fan of some of the early selections (I really didn't like the McGrady or Ming selections when they were taken).

[action781]

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Yeah, that’s my concern.  On a lesser level, we used to have that debate every year in the CB draft about Monta Ellis. The guy was so talented, but every time he was drafted his fit was questions. It eventually turned into a discussion of, is it possible to construct a team that Ellis does fit on?  I think the answer was no.

Iverson is like super Monta Ellis, with way more heart.  He’s amazingly talented, But he is tough to build around. That’s why he fell so far, and that’s why even on a team as talented as Don’s, there is still a debate regarding where he belongs.

I think there's an absolute ceiling for an AI-powered offence - there's only so much you can do to build around a low efficiency lead guard who wasn't anything special as a passer and doesn't have any great additive offensive skills to write home about.

To me there are two superior players in this draft who can solve that conundrum somewhat - KG and KD. Both of them can raise the ceiling of an AI quarterbacked offence with their shooting, passing and creation as "second options" (I'm more confident in KG due to his unselfishness and passing, but KD could coexist with AI well enough). But besides those two, I think the best way is to surround AI with versatile offensive players - players who can create on the ball but also work off ball just as well to provide as much additive value as they can to the offence.

My idea for building around AI would be one of KG/AD at power forward and one of Jokic/Gasol at center.  Those guys can all spread the floor for when Iverson drives, the centers are good passers to allow Iverson to cut off ball and work some handoff actions (think Jamal Murray & Jokic), and the PFs are great pick & roll/pop guys.  Finish with some shooters or 3&D guys on the wings.

[Somebody]

What is the right offense to put around him? Both to allow AI to shine and to stop him from causing damage to / limiting the players around him?

Yeah, that’s my concern.  On a lesser level, we used to have that debate every year in the CB draft about Monta Ellis. The guy was so talented, but every time he was drafted his fit was questions. It eventually turned into a discussion of, is it possible to construct a team that Ellis does fit on?  I think the answer was no.

Iverson is like super Monta Ellis, with way more heart.  He’s amazingly talented, But he is tough to build around. That’s why he fell so far, and that’s why even on a team as talented as Don’s, there is still a debate regarding where he belongs.

I think there's an absolute ceiling for an AI-powered offence - there's only so much you can do to build around a low efficiency lead guard who wasn't anything special as a passer and doesn't have any great additive offensive skills to write home about.

To me there are two superior players in this draft who can solve that conundrum somewhat - KG and KD. Both of them can raise the ceiling of an AI quarterbacked offence with their shooting, passing and creation as "second options" (I'm more confident in KG due to his unselfishness and passing, but KD could coexist with AI well enough). But besides those two, I think the best way is to surround AI with versatile offensive players - players who can create on the ball but also work off ball just as well to provide as much additive value as they can to the offence.

My idea for building around AI would be one of KG/AD at power forward and one of Jokic/Gasol at center.  Those guys can all spread the floor for when Iverson drives, the centers are good passers to allow Iverson to cut off ball and work some handoff actions (think Jamal Murray & Jokic), and the PFs are great pick & roll/pop guys.  Finish with some shooters or 3&D guys on the wings.

I think I would've preferred someone more of a finisher at C. I don't think AI's going to share the ball with multiple guys, so if you have KG at PF you'd better grab guys who can thrive without the ball (but still have some creation skills when they actually receive the pass from AI or KG to provide extra value, a guy like Reggie Miller would be a great offensive fit at the wing).

Basically run the offence through AI and let him jack up as many shots as possible with teammates who can help that cause

[Who]

G: Allen Iverson
F: Tracy McGrady
C: Anthony Davis

There is something there with that trio that might work well for AI. Let him and McGrady be the main creators. AD feed off of them. Go small and run, run, run.

Shawn Marion can play the four alongside those three.

Not sure about the guards. CJ McCollum, Andre Miller, Eddie House or a wing in Shane Battier or James Posey.

[Somebody]

G: Allen Iverson
F: Tracy McGrady
C: Anthony Davis

There is something there with that trio that might work well for AI. Let him and McGrady be the main creators. AD feed off of them. Go small and run, run, run.

Shawn Marion can play the four alongside those three.

Not sure about the guards. CJ McCollum, Andre Miller, Eddie House or a wing in Shane Battier or James Posey.

Can AI and McGrady coexist? Both were just so ball dominant during their peaks. Obviously you could have AI run off ball (McGrady is a way better offensive engine), but his passing value plummets in that off ball role. Love the fit with AD though, that finishing, shooting and extra passing make him so desirable next to a ball dominant guard like AI.

[Who]

G: Allen Iverson
F: Tracy McGrady
C: Anthony Davis

There is something there with that trio that might work well for AI. Let him and McGrady be the main creators. AD feed off of them. Go small and run, run, run.

Shawn Marion can play the four alongside those three.

Not sure about the guards. CJ McCollum, Andre Miller, Eddie House or a wing in Shane Battier or James Posey.

Can AI and McGrady coexist? Both were just so ball dominant during their peaks. Obviously you could have AI run off ball (McGrady is a way better offensive engine), but his passing value plummets in that off ball role. Love the fit with AD though, that finishing, shooting and extra passing make him so desirable next to a ball dominant guard like AI.

If AD stays as an off ball threat and facilitator more than a go-to scorer with a lethal isolation game, it could work. If he doesn't, there will be some issues but might be manageable.

A fair bit depends on the two players though. I would be worried about adding Blake Griffin into the lineup. Definitely too many hands to feed at that point.