2020 Historical Draft Thread: Draft over. Playoffs coming soon!

[gouki88]

Very few players in this game will be called upon to score more than 19.6ppg while surrounded by so many other stars.

Very true. Plus, that edition of Pierce could easily still get his points - he just didn’t need to. I vividly remember him dropping 41 on LBJ

[Somebody]

If I counted correctly, 5 of the 13 individuals who won MVPs over this time frame are yet to be selected.  Not surprised by any of them but it will be interesting to see how they will be drafted (i.e. talent vs. fit).

To further this point, I can definitely see 1, maybe 2 not being picked in the second round

I see three not getting picked in the second round - they're low portability players who don't give you MVP value even if you build around them.

Well you were correct.  Do you care to predict how many of the 3 remaining MVPs don't get selected in the 3rd round?

I'm not sure, we're at the point where one of them in particular might intrigue some people. He'll probably be selected this round.

[Somebody]

So, I might need some feedback if you guys will.

I think I'm pretty certain that I will be picking the 2018-19 season for Paul George. All-NBA 1st team. All-NBA Defense 1st team. Led the league in steals. 3rd in MVP voting.

But I'm still torn between 01-02 vs 05-06 Paul Pierce. I like 02-03 Pierce because he played primarily as an SG there (which will help me slide PG in his natural SF spot), and he's still fairly athletic, but compare to his 05-06 counterpart, he's still a bit inexperienced, and doesn't have the leadership skills yet.

I also don't know which one would be the #1 guy. As I mentioned, both could be the main weapon, and both could easily defer. Although I do know who to give the ball to in clutch moments. He isn't called The Truth for nothing.

I'd pick '08 Pierce, his defence was at its best that season and his offence wasn't far behind his best campaign on that end in '06.

[Somebody]

Another very strange round for me.  Some really big reaches and some other guys seemingly lucking into players that have fallen.  There are also some shockingly good players/years out there, and I don't just mean from the guys that are hard to fit a team concept around that everyone knows.  I almost feel like you could select 2 guys not yet drafted and have as good a start to a team as several duos out there.

I think it should be pretty clear by now that people are choosing players they like and want to defend over pure talent. Makes for a better game IMO

Ntm that people's definition of talent greatly differ from yours.

[tazzmaniac]

Very few players in this game will be called upon to score more than 19.6ppg while surrounded by so many other stars.

Young Pierce gives you positional versatility.  Don't think you can play older Pierce at SG. 

Your point is a good one.  Scorers, even great ones, are much less valuable because every team should have plenty of scoring. 

[gouki88]

Very few players in this game will be called upon to score more than 19.6ppg while surrounded by so many other stars.

Young Pierce gives you positional versatility.  Don't think you can play older Pierce at SG. 

Your point is a good one.  Scorers, even great ones, are much less valuable because every team should have plenty of scoring.

I think that's why we've seen a few inefficient scorers drop / not be picked at all, even though they have more raw talent than a few guys taken.

[Somebody]

Very few players in this game will be called upon to score more than 19.6ppg while surrounded by so many other stars.

Young Pierce gives you positional versatility.  Don't think you can play older Pierce at SG. 

Your point is a good one.  Scorers, even great ones, are much less valuable because every team should have plenty of scoring.

I think that's why we've seen a few inefficient scorers drop / not be picked at all, even though they have more raw talent than a few guys taken.

To be frank I'm not sure if those inefficient scorers are more talented than the guys picked ahead of them. I think everyone picked so far had an All-NBA peak at the very least, which is what I'd use to describe the peaks of those low efficiency ball dominant guys.

[gouki88]

Very few players in this game will be called upon to score more than 19.6ppg while surrounded by so many other stars.

Young Pierce gives you positional versatility.  Don't think you can play older Pierce at SG. 

Your point is a good one.  Scorers, even great ones, are much less valuable because every team should have plenty of scoring.

I think that's why we've seen a few inefficient scorers drop / not be picked at all, even though they have more raw talent than a few guys taken.

To be frank I'm not sure if those inefficient scorers are more talented than the guys picked ahead of them. I think everyone picked so far had an All-NBA peak at the very least, which is what I'd use to describe the peaks of those low efficiency ball dominant guys.

That's fair. I think in terms of raw skill there are guys ahead of players like Klay, but I still don't think any of them should have been taken ahead of him.

If that makes an sense at all

[Somebody]

Very few players in this game will be called upon to score more than 19.6ppg while surrounded by so many other stars.

Young Pierce gives you positional versatility.  Don't think you can play older Pierce at SG. 

Your point is a good one.  Scorers, even great ones, are much less valuable because every team should have plenty of scoring.

I think that's why we've seen a few inefficient scorers drop / not be picked at all, even though they have more raw talent than a few guys taken.

To be frank I'm not sure if those inefficient scorers are more talented than the guys picked ahead of them. I think everyone picked so far had an All-NBA peak at the very least, which is what I'd use to describe the peaks of those low efficiency ball dominant guys.

That's fair. I think in terms of raw skill there are guys ahead of players like Klay, but I still don't think any of them should have been taken ahead of him.

If that makes an sense at all

It does, but I think you've fallen into the trap of only looking at on ball skills (which to be fair is useful in its own right, especially when evaluating on ball engines). Raw skill doesn't only equate to being able to do stuff with the ball, there are skills such as off ball movement, finishing ability after receiving a pass, offensive positioning (eg. sealing off your man for an entry pass/offensive rebound). I think Klay's more skilled than the guys you're thinking of in this sense.

[Somebody]

Btw Thinking Basketball has released its 50th podcast and I think its content would be massively beneficial to everyone participating in this draft:

https://soundcloud.com/thinkingbasketball/50-top-scorers-in-nba-history-revisited

[GreenFaith1819]

Btw Thinking Basketball has released its 50th podcast and I think its content would be massively beneficial to everyone participating in this draft:

https://soundcloud.com/thinkingbasketball/50-top-scorers-in-nba-history-revisited

Very informative and detailed.

Loved the part with Dirk, especially.

I added this to my favorites.

[Somebody]

Btw Thinking Basketball has released its 50th podcast and I think its content would be massively beneficial to everyone participating in this draft:

https://soundcloud.com/thinkingbasketball/50-top-scorers-in-nba-history-revisited

Very informative and detailed.

Loved the part with Dirk, especially.

I added this to my favorites.

Ikr, his views on the game and its players were eye-opening to me. Loved the part where he mentioned older players like Sam Jones (I never knew his efficiency was that high, +10%!!!) and Bob Pettit.

[gouki88]

Btw Thinking Basketball has released its 50th podcast and I think its content would be massively beneficial to everyone participating in this draft:

https://soundcloud.com/thinkingbasketball/50-top-scorers-in-nba-history-revisited

Very informative and detailed.

Loved the part with Dirk, especially.

I added this to my favorites.

Ikr, his views on the game and its players were eye-opening to me. Loved the part where he mentioned older players like Sam Jones (I never knew his efficiency was that high, +10%!!!) and Bob Pettit.

Sam Jones was a stud! In the later part of his career his playoff performances were awesome too

[Moranis]

So, I might need some feedback if you guys will.

I think I'm pretty certain that I will be picking the 2018-19 season for Paul George. All-NBA 1st team. All-NBA Defense 1st team. Led the league in steals. 3rd in MVP voting.

But I'm still torn between 01-02 vs 05-06 Paul Pierce. I like 02-03 Pierce because he played primarily as an SG there (which will help me slide PG in his natural SF spot), and he's still fairly athletic, but compare to his 05-06 counterpart, he's still a bit inexperienced, and doesn't have the leadership skills yet.

I also don't know which one would be the #1 guy. As I mentioned, both could be the main weapon, and both could easily defer. Although I do know who to give the ball to in clutch moments. He isn't called The Truth for nothing.

I insist that you don't dismiss 07-08 Pierce from the conversation.  Here's my reasoning why.  While unfortunately and not-so-subtly tooting the horn of one of my own players. 

If you take 01-02 Paul Pierce... who was a better player that season:  Pierce or Jason Kidd?  I don't think its much of a question by the eyeball test that season.  But if you still wanted to try to argue Pierce, then almost zero metrics are there to back your argument up.  And you took Pierce a full round before Kidd.  This is an awfully narrow-minded approach, but there's still something truthful here.  And it doesn't help you.  And Jason Kidd wasn't even the best player in the league that season.

07-08 Pierce though... who was better?  Kobe?  That Finals MVP trophy thinks otherwise.  Lebron?  See round 2 game 7.  Was Pierce actually better than those players that season?  At least its debatable.  Pierce said at the end of the season that he's the best player in the world and people on CB was saying "Hey, he's got some ground to stand on at least"

I think there are still players out there to be drafted who you can count on being your #1 guy for 40 minutes while 07-08 Pierce is your #1 guy for the last 8 minutes.  That's a nice team.  I'll PM you some ideas.

EDIT:  Doesn't matter who is which position.  Play them both as wings on offense and put Paul George on SG and Pierce on SF defensively.  Or maybe you draft another SG and push Paul George to the PF spot.  That could be interesting.

I think you've actually hit the nail on the head why Pierce was such a reach in the 1st round.  He was more savvy in 08, but he was much worse physically, athletically, etc.  He wasn't a better long range shooter either.  So when he was a better player he wasn't anywhere near the top player in the game.  He didn't just all of a sudden become that guy.  He was an excellent closer, but he was not and should not have been a 1st round pick.  Oh and as for that game 7, Lebron outscored, outrebounded, and out-assisted Pierce in that game.  The fact that that crappy Cavs team even took a far superior Boston team to 7 games is a testament to just how good Lebron James was.  As for the Finals, Kobe outscored, outrebounded, outstealed, etc. Pierce.  Pierce was the Finals MVP because the Celtics were the superior team, not because he was a superior player to Kobe.  Pierce wasn't even the best player on the Celtics that year, that was Garnett and Allen and his uber-efficiency might have been the better player in the Finals (though it was close with Pierce).  Pierce got the Finals MVP because statistically the Big 3 were all fairly close and Pierce was Mr. Celtic. 

[Moranis]

If I counted correctly, 5 of the 13 individuals who won MVPs over this time frame are yet to be selected.  Not surprised by any of them but it will be interesting to see how they will be drafted (i.e. talent vs. fit).

To further this point, I can definitely see 1, maybe 2 not being picked in the second round

I see three not getting picked in the second round - they're low portability players who don't give you MVP value even if you build around them.

Well you were correct.  Do you care to predict how many of the 3 remaining MVPs don't get selected in the 3rd round?

I'm not sure, we're at the point where one of them in particular might intrigue some people. He'll probably be selected this round.

2 of the 3 might, but all 3 are so hard to fit into this type setting I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get drafted until much later on.  Their skill sets are just difficult to fit.  There are a couple of non-MVP's that also fall into this category that could go this round based on talent, but probably fall based on difficult fit as well.