2020 Historical Draft Thread: Draft over. Playoffs coming soon!

[Somebody]

I'm interested in trading up from #28. If anyone is interested in trading down, send me a PM.

Interested in trading up from #27, hmu if you're interested in trading down.

[RockinRyA]

This is very interesting to follow as this was the era where I became a hardcore fan.

[Somebody]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

[Somebody]

With the 14th pick in the 1st round, the Brooklyn Nets select Tracy McGrady

Oh boy I forgot about him (had him stuffed somewhere in my spreadsheet but I didn't put him in my draft board to Nick), yeah it makes sense if you don't ding him for a lack of deep playoff runs (I certainly don't, there's enough evidence to prove that his offence is resilient).

[RockinRyA]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

[gouki88]

My two cents on how the first round went down.

Pick 1: Pretty obvious choice. The equivalent to picking MJ if it was a 90's draft.

Pick 2: I like it. Garnett is one of the best guys to pair alongside other ball-dominant stars for a few reasons. A) scoring 30+ was never his strongest suit, b) he's a great playmaker and is happy to defer, and c) his defensive prowess and versatility can cover a lot of other players weaknesses.

Pick 3: Can't go wrong with Shaq. Some of the most dominant single-season performances we've ever seen. Not many could contain him, let alone stop him.

Pick 4: Similar to KG in that he can slot in alongside other gun players, and be a #1 or #2 option equally as effectively. Not the passer KG was, but a more reliable scorer.

Pick 5: May as well name this guy the winner already!!

Pick 6: I like it. A bit bold picking Kawhi over KD, but Kawhi has that magical playoff run in Toronto. He is also the best defensive wing of all the star players in this pool, and maybe out of all the wings in general available to be picked.

Pick 7: Can't go wrong with KD. Simply an unstoppable force on offence who improved his defence and playmaking in GSW.

Pick 8: This is an interesting one. There are a couple of guys I really would like to see Giannis put next to. Feel like a matchup between Giannis and whoever has vs Shaq and whoever he has would be awesome.

Pick 9: Only fell that far because it's CelticsStrong. Second best SG of all time.

Pick 10: Really interested to see the strategy for a Wade-centric team. As Who noted, going small-ball like the Rockets have IRL could make Wade near-unstoppable.

Pick 11: Surprised he fell so far. Put him alongside a strong guard and I think he's near unstoppable. Hell, he beat Miami with much worse guards than still available in this draft!

Pick 12: Bit of a reach, but it's Paul Pierce - who can say no! His all-round offensive game is so smooth, and he was a good defender. I think his prime was as good as Wade's

Pick 13: Nice pick here. Paul was my #2 point guard going in. His peak was amazing.

Pick 14: T-Mac is one of my guys. Always maintained that had he never got injured he would have been right up there with Kobe - that's the peak we're dealing with.

Looking forward to the 2nd round, although I'll be asleep, so it'll be a case of a nice thing to wake up to

[RPGenerate]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

Yeah, young Duncan was sneaky athletic. I don't think it's fair to say he wasn't good in the pick-and-roll.

[Somebody]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

I don't think so, he struggled mightily against the SSOL Suns spamming the high PnR during the mid-00s. Again you could make it work with the drop zone, but that would be taken advantage of against 5-out offences.

[Somebody]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

Yeah, young Duncan was sneaky athletic. I don't think it's fair to say he wasn't good in the pick-and-roll.

Sneaky athletic doesn't mean 5 star athleticism, which is what you need to really guard the modern high PnR against 5-out offences (bigs can't really sag off the PnR like Duncan did in the early-mid 2000s, it was effective in his era but it doesn't hold well against more modern offences).

[Moranis]

Some very strange selections in the first round.

[RPGenerate]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

Yeah, young Duncan was sneaky athletic. I don't think it's fair to say he wasn't good in the pick-and-roll.

Sneaky athletic doesn't mean 5 star athleticism, which is what you need to really guard the modern high PnR against 5-out offences (bigs can't really sag off the PnR like Duncan did in the early-mid 2000s, it was effective in his era but it doesn't hold well against more modern offences).

Worked well into the end of his career (second best defense in the league in 2015), so I don't see the problem. I think if he survived as a 40 year old in the 3pt era, I think 26-year old Duncan can adapt as well.

[action781]

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

I don't think so, he struggled mightily against the SSOL Suns spamming the high PnR during the mid-00s. Again you could make it work with the drop zone, but that would be taken advantage of against 5-out offences.

I wouldn't say Duncan struggled that mightily against those very good Suns teams considering SAS knocked them out of the playoffs in 3 of the 4 years between 05-08.  (The other year they both lost to DAL).  It wasn't until 2010 that Phoenix ever beat SAS in the playoffs, when Duncan was 33.

Everybody has struggled to defend the pick and roll throughout NBA history, the play is a fantastic weapon.  If Duncan was particularly susceptible to being attacked by it, I don't think he would be as successful as he's been.

[Somebody]

My top 5 peaks from '00-'20:
1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Curry (if you ding his playoff injuries in '16 or use his '17 season he can be #4 or #5)
4. Garnett
5. Duncan

Reasoning for bumping Garnett up to #2:

1. He's the only guy in that group whose value would increase just from playing in the modern era
Garnett usually gets dinged for not being a great 1st option (and I agree, he and Duncan were not ideal offensive centrepieces) due to his inability to pour in an obscene amount of points on high efficiency against elite playoff defences. But that improves if he plays in the modern game: he would have both a volume and efficiency bump if he simply shot more threes (he was shooting roughly 30% from 00-06, combining those numbers with his shot form and anecdotes from others that he was more than capable of shooting threes makes me confident that he would've been a pretty good three point shooter at the very least). Moreover, his tendencies on offence (eg. setting chip screens, drifting outside to the perimeter to initiate action, throwing great passes to find open looks for teammates) are the ideal big man traits in the modern game, making him more valuable on offence as an individual.

His defence would also be more valuable today: his horizontal strengths on that end of the floor would be perfect for shutting down perimeter action that forces the big to guard a perimeter player, something that Shaq and Duncan cannot do (and imo eats at their defensive value a bit in this format, they simply can't defend stuff like the high PnR).

2. His robust skillset makes him one of the most portable superstars in this draft
Garnett's ability to space the floor, pass at a historic level for a big (he only trails Larry Bird according to some tracking and statistical studies when it comes to passing among bigs) and do the little things (again the chip screens and drifting out to the perimeter) makes his skillset extremely portable: he not only just fits well alongside high usage offensive engines, he amplifies their ball dominant skillset with his ability to either work as an elite floor spacer or finisher with extremely good playmaking chops and screen-setting. Only very few superstars can amplify the abilities of ball dominant teammates, and Garnett possessing this ability gives him another boost in this format (I did account for portability in my peaks ranking, but historical drafts have an even steeper curve due to the sheer amount of talent available in the draft pool).

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

Yeah, young Duncan was sneaky athletic. I don't think it's fair to say he wasn't good in the pick-and-roll.

Sneaky athletic doesn't mean 5 star athleticism, which is what you need to really guard the modern high PnR against 5-out offences (bigs can't really sag off the PnR like Duncan did in the early-mid 2000s, it was effective in his era but it doesn't hold well against more modern offences).

Worked well into the end of his career (second best defense in the league in 2015), so I don't see the problem.

I don't think 2015 was really modern when it comes to offence tbh, it was the start of the era with Curry's explosion but the league was only really just realising how valuable pace and space were.

[Somebody]

I think this is underselling Duncan a bit. I believe Duncan has done well against PnRs even later in his career.

I don't think so, he struggled mightily against the SSOL Suns spamming the high PnR during the mid-00s. Again you could make it work with the drop zone, but that would be taken advantage of against 5-out offences.

I wouldn't say Duncan struggled that mightily against those very good Suns teams considering SAS knocked them out of the playoffs in 3 of the 4 years between 05-08.  (The other year they both lost to DAL).  It wasn't until 2010 that Phoenix ever beat SAS in the playoffs, when Duncan was 33.

That was because he went ham on the Suns' frontcourt on offence, and it helped that he had a couple of All-NBA guards playing with him. He did struggle a lot when he tried to defend the high PnR Nash ran, it just doesn't necessarily translate to the W/L column. And the pick and roll has never been as deadly as it has been recently, just because Duncan handled with it well during his era doesn't mean he would still be as good today against 5-out lineups that never really existed during his time.

[gouki88]

Some very strange selections in the first round.

Such as?