Poll: Hayward Memphis pick for Drummond and Rose

[Fierce1]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

If Celts are so good with Hayward then why is the Celtic record just 16-10 when Hayward is playing?

1) our bench sucks and 2) Hayward can’t play all 48 minutes...

You’re really relentless, but you’re wrong to think Drummond is better than him

Agreed.

The Laker game is a PRIME example of this.....and to a lesser extent the MIL game recently.

For ME, personally - I love having 4 potent offensive weapons on the floor at all times...5 when Kanter is in the game.

We lose Hayward and we lose a very good scorer, rebounder, one of our best facilitators and floor generals.

He can also hit from deep as well.

We took it to the Lakers the other night....and they had to account for Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson AND Hayward. We stayed aggressive for FOUR quarters with these guys.

I like Dre but I'd rather roll with what we have now.

The Laker game cannot be the basis of how good the Celtics are.

Against the Celts, Lakers had a FG% of 43.8% and 3pt FG% of 26.9%.
Lakers normally shoot 48.5% from the field, #1 in the NBA.
They also shoot 35.9% from 3pt land.

The Laker game was a case of the Lakers not being their normal selves and the Celts being better than they usually are.

So you don't think that the stifling defense that the Celtics played the last 40 minutes of that game had anything whatsoever to do with the Lakers shooting poorly?

BTW, that great defense was great defense on all their bigs too.

Do I think the Lakers didn't bring it? Yup. But I also think when the Lakers saw how difficult Boston's defense was going to be, that's when they decided to roll over and just get onto New York City.

I hate to say this, nick, but the Celts defense did nothing new.
It was the same defense against losses from the Wiz, Bucks, and Suns.
The only difference was the Lakers were not making their shots from the outside.

Celts were helping inside the paint, that's why the Laker bigs had a hard time scoring.
But when the Laker bigs kicked it out to open shooters, the Laker shooters simply missed a lot.

According to the team the Celtics defense did a lot of things different from their losses against the Wiz, Bucks and Suns. In the Athletic:

The Celtics understood the world would be watching their matchup with the Lakers. But before stepping onto the big stage, they prepared for it by urging each other to take better care of the little things. In what Marcus Smart described as a film session unlike any he had ever experienced with the Celtics, head coach Brad Stevens had players essentially grade every minor detail of Saturday night’s loss to the Suns.

The Celtics normally watch just select clips from recent games. This time, they watched every defensive play from the first half of the defeat. The coaching staff normally leads the instruction. This time, Stevens stopped the action regularly to give the players an opportunity to critique themselves. It might not have been the most groundbreaking coaching wrinkle ever, but Smart considered it a refreshing, collaborative way for the Celtics players to evaluate their recent slippage.

“It was really just holding ourselves accountable,” Smart said. “We looked at every possession and he would pause it and we would ask ourselves, ‘Did we do our job?’ We went through the game plan and we checked off the list if we did our job. If we didn’t, we put a mark up on the board, ‘no.’ If we did, we put a mark up on the board, ‘yes.’ So for us, it was really not so much getting on us but really allowing us to learn. And not overreacting too much (to a recent losing skid).”

.

They believe they started that process Sunday in the film room. Though teams watch film all the time during the season, players sounded more impacted by the way Stevens handled it this weekend.

“It was a great meeting,” Brad Wanamaker said. “It was great for our team.”

The film session lasted about 45 minutes, Smart said – longer than usual, but not a marathon affair. Smart believed Stevens wanted to show more recent losses than just the Suns game, but stopped himself because he knew anything longer would be counterproductive. So the Celtics saw themselves leaving shooters open. They watched themselves getting shredded by Devin Booker. And, over and over, the Boston players were reminded that they could have fixed many of their issues just by doing their routine jobs on a possession-to-possession basis. That can mean applying ball pressure. It can mean switching when they’re supposed to switch. It can mean a man on the weak side sliding over to provide the right help. The Celtics noticed all sorts of little things that made a big difference against Phoenix.

“Normally the coaches just look at (the film) and tell us their thoughts on it,” Ojeleye said. “But honestly, I liked it a lot. We were just real and just honest. And saying, like, ‘Hey, I messed up. I can do that better.’ So that was good.

“(The evaluation system) was just basically a yes or no: Did we do our jobs?’ And we had a lot of nos. We had a lot of yeses too, but just not enough plays where everybody did their job. It was just an honest look in the mirror of what we can do better, how to improve. I think we need that more. Instead of just the coaches telling us and us taking the feedback, us being honest and being like, ‘What can we do better?’ Because at this point in the year, even if you’re a rookie, you know what’s right on the court. We know what we need to do. And we know what we need to do to have a chance to win.”

https://theathletic.com/1549997/2020/01/21/big-win-over-lakers-started-long-before-tip-off-victory-began-in-the-film-room/

If you think their defensive effort and technique wasn't better against LA than it was against the earlier, sub -.500 teams, then you're not as good an analyst of the game than your previous posts would suggest, which I don't think is the case. IF you look at nba.com stats the Lakers average about 13.2% open (defender within 4-6 feet) 3s a game, against the Celtics it was 11.4%. Compare that to the Suns where they had 14.5% open 3s. It's a make-miss league but there was clearly more of an effort to defend the perimeter and not overhelp on the inside.

I never said their defensive effort and technique wasn't better.

What I said was the Celts did nothing new.

Celts still did the same thing as previous games, only this time they did it better.

But that's the reason why they have been struggling, because they went away from the good things they were doing at the start of the season. You can see how it's less of an issue if execute better. Of course if you improve resources things should improve, but in the absence of a viable alternative to that you can also improve execution. Is that enough to get us over the playoff hump everyone is saying we will fall at? I think the jury's still out on that one. Like I said there's no KAT type player our there who will move the needle without substantially changing the makeup of our team. Drummond doesn't move the needle for me. How much has he impacted winning? He's had what, 2 winning seasons in Detroit? For $28m+? No thanks.

I would never tell you that you're wrong because that's your opinion.

But here's the thing, it's Ainge's decision to make.

If Ainge trades for Drummond then I'm happy and you're unhappy.

A compromise would be if the Celts get another Center not named Andre Drummond.

[Fierce1]

Also, why are we going off topic here?

This is supposed to be about Hayward for Drummond, not Celtic defense versus the Lakers.

Considering you hijack every thread to talk about our nonexistent need for a “starting” big man this is hilariously rich.

That was in the past.

[RockinRyA]

Also, why are we going off topic here?

This is supposed to be about Hayward for Drummond, not Celtic defense versus the Lakers.

Considering you hijack every thread to talk about our nonexistent need for a “starting” big man this is hilariously rich.

That was in the past.

in the past, like yesterday? Didnt nick  just call out on your crap?

[Fierce1]

Also, why are we going off topic here?

This is supposed to be about Hayward for Drummond, not Celtic defense versus the Lakers.

Considering you hijack every thread to talk about our nonexistent need for a “starting” big man this is hilariously rich.

That was in the past.

in the past, like yesterday? Didnt nick  just call out on your crap?

What crap?

I was also accused of throwing out crap when I said Jaylen Brown can still be traded this season.

You and some of the posters here were the ones giving me crap when I was right all along.

[nickagneta]

Back on actual subject. Enough with the other stuff.

[mmmmm]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

If Celts are so good with Hayward then why is the Celtic record just 16-10 when Hayward is playing?

This may get mis-interpreted by some as blaming Smart, but ... well, unfortunately there have been several games where we played Smart and Hayward together a lot due to injuries to Jaylen and/or Kemba.  And unfortunately, the effect up above gets neutralized somewhat when Hayward plays with Smart because Smart handles the ball a lot.   In fact, with Smart on the floor with Hayward, the team plays somewhat worse on offense.

Kemba, Jaylen & Jayson all defer to Gordon a ton for playmaking.  But with Smart, Brad has him handle the ball because he is less effective as a 'space-maker' without the ball.  Teams like the Bucks notoriously sag way off of Marcus unless he has the ball.  So this forces Hayward into the corner as a spot-up shooter and negates much of his play-making.

Just watching this current game right now against MEM, with Jaylen out, and Smart moved up to the starting lineup, we see the same effect.  The starters struggled to generate offense out of the gate.  What little they did was off Hayward (4 assists already before the end of the 1st) but the ball spending too much time in other people's hands.

This team needs to be healthy and with everyone in their proper role.   

Important - please don't take this post as a knock against Smart.  I love Marcus and he's super valuable to this team.  But he and Gordon don't mix optimally on offense.  I like Smart best when he's the playmaker for the bench.

[Fierce1]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

If Celts are so good with Hayward then why is the Celtic record just 16-10 when Hayward is playing?

This may get mis-interpreted by some as blaming Smart, but ... well, unfortunately there have been several games where we played Smart and Hayward together a lot due to injuries to Jaylen and/or Kemba.  And unfortunately, the effect up above gets neutralized somewhat when Hayward plays with Smart because Smart handles the ball a lot.   In fact, with Smart on the floor with Hayward, the team plays somewhat worse on offense.

Kemba, Jaylen & Jayson all defer to Gordon a ton for playmaking.  But with Smart, Brad has him handle the ball because he is less effective as a 'space-maker' without the ball.  Teams like the Bucks notoriously sag way off of Marcus unless he has the ball.  So this forces Hayward into the corner as a spot-up shooter and negates much of his play-making.

Just watching this current game right now against MEM, with Jaylen out, and Smart moved up to the starting lineup, we see the same effect.  The starters struggled to generate offense out of the gate.  What little they did was off Hayward (4 assists already before the end of the 1st) but the ball spending too much time in other people's hands.

This team needs to be healthy and with everyone in their proper role.   

Important - please don't take this post as a knock against Smart.  I love Marcus and he's super valuable to this team.  But he and Gordon don't mix optimally on offense.  I like Smart best when he's the playmaker for the bench.

I think that's because both Hayward and Smart are playmakers and there's only one basketball.

That's why there's some truth to Hayward being redundant.

When you have Tatum, Brown, and Smart, it's a luxury if you have a guy like Hayward getting 32m per year.

[mmmmm]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

If Celts are so good with Hayward then why is the Celtic record just 16-10 when Hayward is playing?

This may get mis-interpreted by some as blaming Smart, but ... well, unfortunately there have been several games where we played Smart and Hayward together a lot due to injuries to Jaylen and/or Kemba.  And unfortunately, the effect up above gets neutralized somewhat when Hayward plays with Smart because Smart handles the ball a lot.   In fact, with Smart on the floor with Hayward, the team plays somewhat worse on offense.

Kemba, Jaylen & Jayson all defer to Gordon a ton for playmaking.  But with Smart, Brad has him handle the ball because he is less effective as a 'space-maker' without the ball.  Teams like the Bucks notoriously sag way off of Marcus unless he has the ball.  So this forces Hayward into the corner as a spot-up shooter and negates much of his play-making.

Just watching this current game right now against MEM, with Jaylen out, and Smart moved up to the starting lineup, we see the same effect.  The starters struggled to generate offense out of the gate.  What little they did was off Hayward (4 assists already before the end of the 1st) but the ball spending too much time in other people's hands.

This team needs to be healthy and with everyone in their proper role.   

Important - please don't take this post as a knock against Smart.  I love Marcus and he's super valuable to this team.  But he and Gordon don't mix optimally on offense.  I like Smart best when he's the playmaker for the bench.

I think that's because both Hayward and Smart are playmakers and there's only one basketball.

That's why there's some truth to Hayward being redundant.

When you have Tatum, Brown, and Smart, it's a luxury if you have a guy like Hayward getting 32m per year.

That's ridiculous.  In no way or form is Hayward "redundant" with Smart.  He's a far superior basketball player and his effect on the team demonstrates that.

That they are both playmakers doesn't make either of them "redundant".  The team needs multiple playmakers on the floor throughout the game.  The only problem here is that because Jaylen and Kemba have missed time, we have had to slide Smart into the starting lineup.

[trickybilly]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

If Celts are so good with Hayward then why is the Celtic record just 16-10 when Hayward is playing?

This may get mis-interpreted by some as blaming Smart, but ... well, unfortunately there have been several games where we played Smart and Hayward together a lot due to injuries to Jaylen and/or Kemba.  And unfortunately, the effect up above gets neutralized somewhat when Hayward plays with Smart because Smart handles the ball a lot.   In fact, with Smart on the floor with Hayward, the team plays somewhat worse on offense.

Kemba, Jaylen & Jayson all defer to Gordon a ton for playmaking.  But with Smart, Brad has him handle the ball because he is less effective as a 'space-maker' without the ball.  Teams like the Bucks notoriously sag way off of Marcus unless he has the ball.  So this forces Hayward into the corner as a spot-up shooter and negates much of his play-making.

Just watching this current game right now against MEM, with Jaylen out, and Smart moved up to the starting lineup, we see the same effect.  The starters struggled to generate offense out of the gate.  What little they did was off Hayward (4 assists already before the end of the 1st) but the ball spending too much time in other people's hands.

This team needs to be healthy and with everyone in their proper role.   

Important - please don't take this post as a knock against Smart.  I love Marcus and he's super valuable to this team.  But he and Gordon don't mix optimally on offense.  I like Smart best when he's the playmaker for the bench.

I think that's because both Hayward and Smart are playmakers and there's only one basketball.

That's why there's some truth to Hayward being redundant.

When you have Tatum, Brown, and Smart, it's a luxury if you have a guy like Hayward getting 32m per year.

That's ridiculous.  In no way or form is Hayward "redundant" with Smart.  He's a far superior basketball player and his effect on the team demonstrates that.

That they are both playmakers doesn't make either of them "redundant".  The team needs multiple playmakers on the floor throughout the game.  The only problem here is that because Jaylen and Kemba have missed time, we have had to slide Smart into the starting lineup.

Right. Fundamentally, our offense requires almost everyone to be a playmaker. Whoever brings the ball down the floor is irrelevant. There are many sets we run specifically for Gordon (nail catch, ball screen, flare or cut), and some that are geared solely towards Marcus and the big running a high pick and roll, and then looking for the best secondary option if the PnR collapses. But if Hayward is the primary (i.e. first) playmaker every set, then teams very quickly figure out how to defend the secondary schemes. In fact, that classic Hayward nail catch was only used, I think, once tonight.

Hayward, Smart, Kemba, and Tatum all had 4 or more assists. That just shows good playmaking from multiple handlers, which is almost impossible to defend when you can't lock in on one guy.

[gouki88]

The idea that you can only have a certain amount of playmakers on a team where the offensive system values playmaking is somewhat baffling to me. Brad clearly likes what Hayward brings to our offence (as he should, he’s unique on our team), and he was only spending so much time with Smart due to injuries.

[IDreamCeltics]

It seems like a fair trade to me, both the primaries in the deal (Haywart and Drummond) are probably the 4th or 5th best player on a contender.

The difference is Hayward has proven to be completely redundant on this team. We've had almost a three year sample size to look at now and the team doesn't get any worse when he's unavailable nor does it get better when he is available.  He's just another guy you can plug into Brad's system.

I'm not 100% sure Drummond is the answer, but it'd be nice to have an actual center again instead of a bunch of guys who are backups at best on playoff teams.

Scoring Efficiency (TS%) without Gordon Hayward on the floor:

Jayson Tatum 51.9%
Jaylen Brown 59.5%
Kemba Walker 58.2%
Daniel Theis 55.4%
Enes Kanter 59.8%

Team overall: 55.6%
Team Offensive Rating:  113.2
Team Assisted Shot Rate:  55.0%

Scoring efficiency WITH Gordon Hayward on the floor:

Jayson Tatum 57.6%
Jaylen Brown 59.8%
Kemba Walker 60.5%
Daniel Theis 60.5%
Enes Kanter 65.6%

Team Overall:  57.7%
Team Offensive Rating: 117.0
Team Assisted Shot Rate:  58.5%

TP, although you won’t get a response. He’s not actually interested in discussion, just trolling.

Actually, I really like when people bring factual content or stats to discussions. 

I rarely respond in threads because the majority of what gets posted in response to my unpopular opinions are personal attacks and labels like "troll" to negate my arguments, followed by people hiding behind moderators (or their role as a moderator).

Those stats are interesting, but my argument isn't that Hayward sucks, it's just that he's redundant on this team. 

I fully expect good role players to and borderline starters to make other good role players and starters better... The alternative is that Semi Ojeleye or Grant Williams is playing and obviously those guys aren't drawing a lot of defensive attention.

However... the most important stats are games played and W/L record... and obviously you're not going to want to address those if you're a Hayword defender.

[gouki88]

It seems like a fair trade to me, both the primaries in the deal (Haywart and Drummond) are probably the 4th or 5th best player on a contender.

The difference is Hayward has proven to be completely redundant on this team. We've had almost a three year sample size to look at now and the team doesn't get any worse when he's unavailable nor does it get better when he is available.  He's just another guy you can plug into Brad's system.

I'm not 100% sure Drummond is the answer, but it'd be nice to have an actual center again instead of a bunch of guys who are backups at best on playoff teams.

Scoring Efficiency (TS%) without Gordon Hayward on the floor:

Jayson Tatum 51.9%
Jaylen Brown 59.5%
Kemba Walker 58.2%
Daniel Theis 55.4%
Enes Kanter 59.8%

Team overall: 55.6%
Team Offensive Rating:  113.2
Team Assisted Shot Rate:  55.0%

Scoring efficiency WITH Gordon Hayward on the floor:

Jayson Tatum 57.6%
Jaylen Brown 59.8%
Kemba Walker 60.5%
Daniel Theis 60.5%
Enes Kanter 65.6%

Team Overall:  57.7%
Team Offensive Rating: 117.0
Team Assisted Shot Rate:  58.5%

TP, although you won’t get a response. He’s not actually interested in discussion, just trolling.

Actually, I really like when people bring factual content or stats to discussions. 

I rarely respond in threads because the majority of what gets posted in response to my unpopular opinions are personal attacks and labels like "troll" to negate my arguments, followed by people hiding behind moderators (or their role as a moderator).

Those stats are interesting, but my argument isn't that Hayward sucks, it's just that he's redundant on this team. 

I fully expect good role players to and borderline starters to make other good role players and starters better... The alternative is that Semi Ojeleye or Grant Williams is playing and obviously those guys aren't drawing a lot of defensive attention.

However... the most important stats are games played and W/L record... and obviously you're not going to want to address those if you're a Hayword defender.

Lol. Right. You’re never trying to antagonise. How could someone think you make troll posts, I wonder? Only really have to look back to you makings a post to congratulate Hayward on reaching 82 games.

It’s just cringeworthy calling Hayward a borderline starter. Literally impossible to back up with any factual evidence. Nobody labels you with anything to negate your posts - you do that yourself.

Maybe our lack of health (see Kemba, Brown, Smart, Tatum & Kanter all missing time) is why our record isn’t perfect? We are sitting at 29-14, on pace for 55 wins. Probably a bit better than you expected at the start of the year, just like Hayward’s production is.

[Fierce1]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

If Celts are so good with Hayward then why is the Celtic record just 16-10 when Hayward is playing?

This may get mis-interpreted by some as blaming Smart, but ... well, unfortunately there have been several games where we played Smart and Hayward together a lot due to injuries to Jaylen and/or Kemba.  And unfortunately, the effect up above gets neutralized somewhat when Hayward plays with Smart because Smart handles the ball a lot.   In fact, with Smart on the floor with Hayward, the team plays somewhat worse on offense.

Kemba, Jaylen & Jayson all defer to Gordon a ton for playmaking.  But with Smart, Brad has him handle the ball because he is less effective as a 'space-maker' without the ball.  Teams like the Bucks notoriously sag way off of Marcus unless he has the ball.  So this forces Hayward into the corner as a spot-up shooter and negates much of his play-making.

Just watching this current game right now against MEM, with Jaylen out, and Smart moved up to the starting lineup, we see the same effect.  The starters struggled to generate offense out of the gate.  What little they did was off Hayward (4 assists already before the end of the 1st) but the ball spending too much time in other people's hands.

This team needs to be healthy and with everyone in their proper role.   

Important - please don't take this post as a knock against Smart.  I love Marcus and he's super valuable to this team.  But he and Gordon don't mix optimally on offense.  I like Smart best when he's the playmaker for the bench.

I think that's because both Hayward and Smart are playmakers and there's only one basketball.

That's why there's some truth to Hayward being redundant.

When you have Tatum, Brown, and Smart, it's a luxury if you have a guy like Hayward getting 32m per year.

That's ridiculous.  In no way or form is Hayward "redundant" with Smart.  He's a far superior basketball player and his effect on the team demonstrates that.

That they are both playmakers doesn't make either of them "redundant".  The team needs multiple playmakers on the floor throughout the game.  The only problem here is that because Jaylen and Kemba have missed time, we have had to slide Smart into the starting lineup.

The problem is the Celts are spending or will spend more than 100m in cap space money and all the players they're spending on are either guards or wings.

How can you have a balanced team if 90% of your salaries are spent on 3 positions.

The Celts don't even have a true PF and their Center is a backup Center being forced into a starting role.

[Fierce1]

What happens in a playoff game when all 5 core players are healthy?

Who plays in the last 4 minutes?

The sure 4 will be Kemba, Brown, Hayward, and Tatum.

So who plays Center?

Theis?

Smart?

Kanter?

If you play Theis or Kanter at Center then Smart's talents would just be wasted because he will just sit on the bench.

To maximize the strength of the Celtics, all 5 or the core 5 will have to be on the court in the last 4 or 5 minutes of a playoff game.

That means Smart has to play Center.

Will the Celts win many games using Smart as a Center?

Marcus Smart at Center is a joke!

Celts are better off with a lineup of Kemba, Smart, Brown, Tatum, and Drummond.

[ederson]

And Embiib kills you in 4 games...