Was last night an example of the value of coaching?

[celticsclay]

Not sure how many people watched the Heat versus 76ers game last night before the Celtics, but it was a pretty interesting game. 76ers came in fully health with their Superstar Embid and fringe all-stars for the year in Harris and Simmons, plus very elite role players and starters in Richardson and Horford. The Heat game in missing Dragic, Winslow and Johnson plus one of the guys they had filling in for their guard rotation in Silva. They started their two best players in Butler and Bam, but than had undrafted Duncan Robinson and Nunn in the lineup alongside the amazing Meyers Leonard. Predictably, the Heat were getting slaughtered early on the road and were down 10 after one.

 It looked like we were well on to a blowout for the 76ers. Then Spoelstra switched to a zone defense. This zone defense completely flummoxed the 76ers in a way you don't often see in the NBA level. After implementing it following a timeout with the score 41-29 76ers, the 27-7 run to be up 56-48 at the half. During this stretch perhaps the biggest issue was Ben Simmons (who is far from ideal in a zone because he won't shoot). Ben went 0-2 from the field with a turnover and two assists. On the 76ers boards a few posters described this as the difference between a world championship coach and a guy hired to lose games. Generally the consensus is that in the NBA you can't even attempt to run a zone defense for any length of time because it will get completely destroyed. Yet, here we had a team with a completely stacked team flummoxed and unable to operate it against it. A few questions for people on this.

Is this one of the bigger examples we can see in the difference in coaching? (I think we can all agree the talent difference was pretty huge for the undermanned heat on the road)
How would Brad Stevens have responded to a zone (I am trying to remember the last time we had it run against us for an extended time)
What place do you think a zone defense has in the NBA?

[Fafnir]

How would Brad Stevens have responded to a zone (I am trying to remember the last time we had it run against us for an extended time)
What place do you think a zone defense has in the NBA?

The Heat ran it against us the last time we played them!

Tatum with the ball on the nail was the play call and overall the C's carved it into little pieces. Spo didn't stick with it for long, too many shooters and players who could attack it in the line ups the C's prefer.

The Heat definitely practice zone and are comfortable utilizing it depending on the match up and the game situation. I think its a nice change of pace out of timeout or for a possession or two option against most teams, but the general NBA is too good at shooting deep shots off the dribble for it to work as a base defense.

[hpantazo]

I think it’s an excellent example of coaching. The Sixers big weakness is coaching imo. It’s also an example of excellent GM roster management though. The Heat are surprisingly very , very good this season because of the play of their young, underrated talent such as Adebayo, Nunn, Herro, etc. They have really stepped up

[celticsclay]

How would Brad Stevens have responded to a zone (I am trying to remember the last time we had it run against us for an extended time)
What place do you think a zone defense has in the NBA?

The Heat ran it against us the last time we played them!

Tatum with the ball on the nail was the play call and overall the C's carved it into little pieces. Spo didn't stick with it for long, too many shooters and players who could attack it in the line ups the C's prefer.

The Heat definitely practice zone and are comfortable utilizing it depending on the match up and the game situation. I think its a nice change of pace out of timeout or for a possession or two option against most teams, but the general NBA is too good at shooting deep shots off the dribble for it to work as a base defense.

To clarify, I do not though that it is very common for a team to run it for a possession or two to catch a team off guard, or to exploit a specific matchup. Last night the heat ran it for at least 8 minutes of gametime straight in the second quarter. I believe they were also mostly running it the the rest of the game, but I missed a large part of the second half and would need someone else to confirm). That is not something i see very often...and can't really remember the last time i did.

That being said, I did not get to see very much of heat game. How, long did they actually run it against us?

[celticsclay]

Interesting article on the game (has some good clips of game)

https://www.phillyvoice.com/nba-film-analysis-sixers-miamis-zone-defense-joel-embiid-ben-simmons-tobias-harris-josh-richardson/

[manl_lui]

How would Brad Stevens have responded to a zone (I am trying to remember the last time we had it run against us for an extended time)
What place do you think a zone defense has in the NBA?

The Heat ran it against us the last time we played them!

Tatum with the ball on the nail was the play call and overall the C's carved it into little pieces. Spo didn't stick with it for long, too many shooters and players who could attack it in the line ups the C's prefer.

The Heat definitely practice zone and are comfortable utilizing it depending on the match up and the game situation. I think its a nice change of pace out of timeout or for a possession or two option against most teams, but the general NBA is too good at shooting deep shots off the dribble for it to work as a base defense.

To clarify, I do not though that it is very common for a team to run it for a possession or two to catch a team off guard, or to exploit a specific matchup. Last night the heat ran it for at least 8 minutes of gametime straight in the second quarter. I believe they were also mostly running it the the rest of the game, but I missed a large part of the second half and would need someone else to confirm). That is not something i see very often...and can't really remember the last time i did.

That being said, I did not get to see very much of heat game. How, long did they actually run it against us?

i do not think the last time we played the Heat, Spo didn't coach that game. But yea I thought yesterday's game was impressive to watch. More impressive to see how tight the Eastern Conference has become the last two years. It's very competitive

[Moranis]

I didn't see any of the game, but here are the Sixers possessions after that timeout

Turnover - Ennis bad pass
Missed 3 - Harris
Turnover - Horford bad pass
3 pointer - Ennis
2 pointer - Horford
Turnover - Simmons bad pass
Blocked Shot - Simmons 5ft shot blocked by Leonard
Missed 3 - Scott
Turnover - Thybulle bad pass
Missed 2 - Richadson (8 ft)
Missed 3 - Harris
Missed 3 - Scott - Simmons offensive rebound
Missed 2 - Simmons (layup)
Missed 3 - Richardson - Embiid offensive rebound
Dunk - Embiid
Missed 3 - Richardson - Harris offensive rebound
Missed 3 - Scott
Missed 3 - Richardson

Without watching the game, I have no idea the quality of those shots, but it seems to have been a lot of just terrible shooting from guys who tend to be at least decent shooters down the stretch with a lot of just poor passing early on to start the run by Miami.  Now maybe a great coach like Pop is able to call a play here or there to stop the bleeding, but sometimes guys just go cold.  I do note that after Embiid re-entered the game with 4 minutes left, he only got one shot and that was off of an offensive rebound.  That seems to be a failure looking at the box score, but maybe they just kept feeding him and he had to keep kicking it out for open looks at 3. 

[Fafnir]

I'm not sure what we're doing here composing a long post like this if you're not going to watch the stretch of game in question. Defense can't be evaluated beyond a surface level of did they get stops via play by play box score.

[celticsclay]

I'm not sure what we're doing here composing a long post like this if you're not going to watch the stretch of game in question. Defense can't be evaluated beyond a surface level of did they get stops via play by play box score.

Lol yea. I found this particularly humorous given that the point of my post was asking if other people watched it. I did watch it, and while a few of their shots were open, they were clearly confused by it. Also 4 turnovers and a blocked shot that is rebounded by under team is pretty bad for that amount of time. However, you don't have to take my word for it. Here is Richardson trying to explain their struggles:

"I think it flattened us out a little bit," Richardson said after the game. "I think we were settling a little bit, not getting the ball inside the way we could have. They're good at the zone, they practice it a lot...you just got to move the ball, you got to get the ball to the high post, low post, and play inside out, or you just got to drive it. You can't just stand there with the ball over your head."

[Fafnir]

That being said, I did not get to see very much of heat game. How, long did they actually run it against us?

I can't say with any precision, my recollection was they didn't run zone against the Celtics for long as it wasn't effective. I certainly don't remember them using it for more than a single stretch of possessions.

Certainly not 8 minutes! I know they also used it against us last year for longer stretches, iirc Marcus Morris and others just jacked a bunch of threes till we got a mad brad timeout.

[Sophomore]

It was wild to watch Simmons dribble into the dead spot in the zone again and again and find himself wide open for a 12-15 foot jumper -- and he'd just keep passing it up. He really, truly, would not shoot a jumper. Not just a 3. 

[Moranis]

I'm not sure what we're doing here composing a long post like this if you're not going to watch the stretch of game in question. Defense can't be evaluated beyond a surface level of did they get stops via play by play box score.

I said that from the beginning.  Was it the zone that caused all of the missed 3's or just them going cold?  Sometimes teams just miss.  Watching the highlights, they missed a lot of open shots.  The turnovers in that stretch were just bad passes/decisions and not a result of the zone.  It is all fun to blame coaches, but they don't actually play the game or take the shots.  Simmons' blocked shot was on a fast break after he grabbed the rebound and went coast to coast.  Was that zone defense that caused that one or just a good defensive play (or bad offensive play)?

Reading the Philadelphia press, they didn't focus on coaching so much as the team as a whole lacks ball handling outside of Simmons.  They just don't have anyone that can effectively dribble the ball, except for Simmons.  Is it a lack of coaching that Simmons is the only plus ball handler on the entire team? 

Then again others in the Philadelphia press, also say things like

This isn’t usually the case, though, as the Sixers are actually one of the best teams in the league when it comes to attacking the zone defense. Coach Brown is well aware of this, and he knows that it was just an off shooting night for his team on Tuesday.

Using an 8 minutes stretch, when the Sixers couldn't hit the broad side of the barn to imply that Brown and Simmons are terrible just seems strange.  The zone works when teams don't hit shots.  The zone works when teams don't have ball handlers that can break it down.  Who is the 2nd best ball handler on the Sixers.  Neto and Burke are the 2 back-up PG's and they are just bad.  Richardson isn't much of a ball handler.  Despite all of that, the Sixers are usually pretty good at beating the zone, of course that requires them to hit their shots, something they just weren't doing last night during that stretch (they also weren't defending well as they gave up 27 points in just under 8 minutes, which is terrible).

[mmmmm]

How would Brad Stevens have responded to a zone (I am trying to remember the last time we had it run against us for an extended time)
What place do you think a zone defense has in the NBA?

The Heat ran it against us the last time we played them!

Tatum with the ball on the nail was the play call and overall the C's carved it into little pieces. Spo didn't stick with it for long, too many shooters and players who could attack it in the line ups the C's prefer.

The Heat definitely practice zone and are comfortable utilizing it depending on the match up and the game situation. I think its a nice change of pace out of timeout or for a possession or two option against most teams, but the general NBA is too good at shooting deep shots off the dribble for it to work as a base defense.

Yeah, the thing with a zone is that it is great for forcing a team to take outside shots but can be broken down by either hitting those outside shots or by using a double-screen with an early-rolling big in order to create a seam for the ball-handler.  Zones can't really defend that.  And that's one of Brad's favorite plays.  The Cs run variations of it a ton.

I do like the idea of using a zone against Philly, though.

[celticsclay]

I'm not sure what we're doing here composing a long post like this if you're not going to watch the stretch of game in question. Defense can't be evaluated beyond a surface level of did they get stops via play by play box score.

I said that from the beginning.  Was it the zone that caused all of the missed 3's or just them going cold?  Sometimes teams just miss.  Watching the highlights, they missed a lot of open shots.  The turnovers in that stretch were just bad passes/decisions and not a result of the zone.  It is all fun to blame coaches, but they don't actually play the game or take the shots.  Simmons' blocked shot was on a fast break after he grabbed the rebound and went coast to coast.  Was that zone defense that caused that one or just a good defensive play (or bad offensive play)?

Reading the Philadelphia press, they didn't focus on coaching so much as the team as a whole lacks ball handling outside of Simmons.  They just don't have anyone that can effectively dribble the ball, except for Simmons.  Is it a lack of coaching that Simmons is the only plus ball handler on the entire team? 

Then again others in the Philadelphia press, also say things like

This isn’t usually the case, though, as the Sixers are actually one of the best teams in the league when it comes to attacking the zone defense. Coach Brown is well aware of this, and he knows that it was just an off shooting night for his team on Tuesday.

Using an 8 minutes stretch, when the Sixers couldn't hit the broad side of the barn to imply that Brown and Simmons are terrible just seems strange.  The zone works when teams don't hit shots.  The zone works when teams don't have ball handlers that can break it down.  Who is the 2nd best ball handler on the Sixers.  Neto and Burke are the 2 back-up PG's and they are just bad.  Richardson isn't much of a ball handler.  Despite all of that, the Sixers are usually pretty good at beating the zone, of course that requires them to hit their shots, something they just weren't doing last night during that stretch (they also weren't defending well as they gave up 27 points in just under 8 minutes, which is terrible).

Since you didn't watch the game, maybe it just logical to sit the conversation out? I actually watched the game and can tell you with confidence they were flummoxed by it for whatever reason and had a lot of bad possessions and shots. Did they miss some open 3's? Sure, but I think I am trusting both my own eye and the eyes of the 76ers fans from the game thread that consistently watch all their games over whatever nonsense you are trying to do here from a box score and some highlights. Good grief.

To add more hilarity to your argument here is Brett Brown openly discussing their struggles and admitting it bothered them more than other times this year...

"I think that we ended up overthinking it too much. I think that we have been quite good against the zone this year, with the fifth-best offense against the zone, so they tell me. I feel like it put us on our heels, and I don’t think that we responded the way that I thought we would, and I think it crept into our defense. It watered us down on both sides of the ball"

Please just stop man... I'm would not sit here and argue with you over a celtics game that you watch and i don't. It literally makes no sense.

[liam]

The move to zone totally changed that game last night. It looked like a massive blow out for The Sixers and then it just flipped. I think the Sixers finally solved it in the 4th but they ran out of time. I don't think it would work for a whole seven game series but I could be wrong. Brett Brown was out coached.