Would you have preferred Ainge gone in this direction during offseason?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

[td450]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

Ok, but you shouldn't compare Kemba to Brogdon. You should compare the two directions overall. That means that we also have Baynes, who solves lots and lots of problems. You save $5M and can also can drop Kanter to save $10M.

Suddenly we upgrade the defense at two positions. Baynes is strong enough to cover the biggest centers. We do lose that extra level of scoring that Kemba gives us, but we probably can make that up easily enough.

[Jvalin]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

There are only 8 players throughout the NBA history that are members of the 50-40-90 club. Brogdon is one of them alongside Larry Bird, Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Mark Price, KD, Dirk and Steph. I would argue he joined an elite club, don't you think? Sure, the guy was getting plenty of open shots cause Giannis is such a dominant player, but he's an elite shooter nonetheless. His free throw% speaks volumes of his ability as a shooter.

Kemba is a better team defender you say? No way! I could understand the comparison regarding on-ball D cause Kemba is more explosive. There is no way he's better at team D though: switching ball screens/defending multiple positions, denying the ball, reading the game/the mismatches, intercepting passes in the passing lanes, etc.

Anyway, let's just say we agree to disagree.

[gouki88]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

There are only 8 players throughout the NBA history that are members of the 50-40-90 club. Brogdon is one of them alongside Larry Bird, Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Mark Price, KD, Dirk and Steph. I would argue he joined an elite club, don't you think? Sure, the guy was getting plenty of open shots cause Giannis is such a dominant player, but he's an elite shooter nonetheless. His free throw% speaks volumes of his ability as a shooter.

Kemba is a better team defender you say? No way! I could understand the comparison regarding on-ball D cause Kemba is more explosive. There is no way he's better at team D though: switching ball screens/defending multiple positions, denying the ball, reading the game/the mismatches, intercepting passes in the passing lanes, etc.

Anyway, let's just say we agree to disagree.

Do you think it's a coincidence his shooting % has plummeted now that he's a focal point of the defence? Because his shooting off the dribble was really poor last year, even with his astronomical catch and shoot percentages.

[Celtics4ever]

No, I don't prefer it.  We are doing fine.  Who knows if Brogdon would have fit in like Kemba.

[Jvalin]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

There are only 8 players throughout the NBA history that are members of the 50-40-90 club. Brogdon is one of them alongside Larry Bird, Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Mark Price, KD, Dirk and Steph. I would argue he joined an elite club, don't you think? Sure, the guy was getting plenty of open shots cause Giannis is such a dominant player, but he's an elite shooter nonetheless. His free throw% speaks volumes of his ability as a shooter.

Kemba is a better team defender you say? No way! I could understand the comparison regarding on-ball D cause Kemba is more explosive. There is no way he's better at team D though: switching ball screens/defending multiple positions, denying the ball, reading the game/the mismatches, intercepting passes in the passing lanes, etc.

Anyway, let's just say we agree to disagree.

Do you think it's a coincidence his shooting % has plummeted now that he's a focal point of the defence? Because his shooting off the dribble was really poor last year, even with his astronomical catch and shoot percentages.

Probably not, but his overall shooting % hasn't plummeted. He's averaging 46.4% from the field (Kemba's career best is 44.4%) and 98% from the free throw line (48-49). If you ask me, I still expect him to be averaging close to 40% from 3 at the end of the season. Oladipo is gonna help him a lot once he returns from his injury (and Brogdon is gonna help Oladipo's slashing game by hitting his shots from the perimeter).

[mmmmm]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

I'm a huge Brogdon fan, but let's be clear about these numbers.   Over the course of his career, Kemba has taken a far smaller share of his shots that have been 'wide open' compared to Brogdon.

For example, last year, Brogdon shot 26.4% of his threes with no defender within 6 feet.  He hit those at a healthy 45.7%, fattening up his overall 3PT% number.  The prior season, he shot 29.4% of threes with no defender within 6 ft and hit those at a nice 40.6%.

Kemba, meanwhile, last year shot only  12.5% of his threes with no defender within 6 ft.  He hit those at a 41% clip.  The prior season, the numbers were 16.6% and 43.4%, respectively.

In other words, it is clear that, if given wide-open looks, Kemba is pretty much the same 40%+ class of shooter that Brogdon is.   He just has not been given the luxury of not constantly being covered tightly, especially during his years in Charlotte.    Thus he has a smaller share of such wide-open shots to boost up his overall averages.

[Jvalin]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

I'm a huge Brogdon fan, but let's be clear about these numbers.   Over the course of his career, Kemba has taken a far smaller share of his shots that have been 'wide open' compared to Brogdon.

For example, last year, Brogdon shot 26.4% of his threes with no defender within 6 feet.  He hit those at a healthy 45.7%, fattening up his overall 3PT% number.  The prior season, he shot 29.4% of threes with no defender within 6 ft and hit those at a nice 40.6%.

Kemba, meanwhile, last year shot only  12.5% of his threes with no defender within 6 ft.  He hit those at a 41% clip.  The prior season, the numbers were 16.6% and 43.4%, respectively.

In other words, it is clear that, if given wide-open looks, Kemba is pretty much the same 40%+ class of shooter that Brogdon is.   He just has not been given the luxury of not constantly being covered tightly, especially during his years in Charlotte.    Thus he has a smaller share of such wide-open shots to boost up his overall averages.

Agreed. I said it myself that Brogdon was getting plenty of open looks because he was playing next to Giannis.

Sure, the guy was getting plenty of open shots cause Giannis is such a dominant player, but he's an elite shooter nonetheless. His free throw% speaks volumes of his ability as a shooter.

TP for posting the detailed numbers though!

Still, the difference lies in the free throw%. Brogdon's worst season is at 86.5%. Kemba's best season (excluding the current one cause we're still in November) is at 86.4%. To put it another way, Brogdon at his worst as a free throw shooter is still marginally better than Kemba at his best.

[mmmmm]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

I'm a huge Brogdon fan, but let's be clear about these numbers.   Over the course of his career, Kemba has taken a far smaller share of his shots that have been 'wide open' compared to Brogdon.

For example, last year, Brogdon shot 26.4% of his threes with no defender within 6 feet.  He hit those at a healthy 45.7%, fattening up his overall 3PT% number.  The prior season, he shot 29.4% of threes with no defender within 6 ft and hit those at a nice 40.6%.

Kemba, meanwhile, last year shot only  12.5% of his threes with no defender within 6 ft.  He hit those at a 41% clip.  The prior season, the numbers were 16.6% and 43.4%, respectively.

In other words, it is clear that, if given wide-open looks, Kemba is pretty much the same 40%+ class of shooter that Brogdon is.   He just has not been given the luxury of not constantly being covered tightly, especially during his years in Charlotte.    Thus he has a smaller share of such wide-open shots to boost up his overall averages.

Agreed. I said it myself that Brogdon was getting plenty of open looks because he was playing next to Giannis.

Sure, the guy was getting plenty of open shots cause Giannis is such a dominant player, but he's an elite shooter nonetheless. His free throw% speaks volumes of his ability as a shooter.

TP for posting the detailed numbers though!

Still, the difference lies in the free throw%. Brogdon's worst season is at 86.5%. Kemba's best season (excluding the current one cause we're still in November) is at 86.4%. To put it another way, Brogdon at his worst as a free throw shooter is still marginally better than Kemba at his best.

Well, again, while Brogdon definitely deserves credit for being just nails when he gets to the FT line ... let's keep in mind that in his 3+ seasons he's shot a grand total of just 412 FTA (as of today).   Kemba has shot more FTA than that in three single _seasons_ and is approaching 3000 FTA for his career.

I think if you get too hyper focused on just the act of shooting and a specific percentage, you lose site of the fact that these two guys are two very fundamentally different types of scorers, who do different things on the floor and shoot under different conditions.  Even FTA can't be considered all equal.   Guys like Kemba, Lillard, Westbrook, Isaiah when he was healthy, Harden, etc. - these guys are constantly attacking and working to get to that line.   Late in games, watch closely at how those guys look when they get to the line.  They are breathing hard, amped up.   They have to master their bodies to control their pace to make the FTA.

Rondo famously would drain FTA after FTA in practice, but then would struggle in games to slow down his body to make those shots in-game.   Remember how well he shot in the Skills competition during All-Star break once?

I don't disagree with your conclusion that Brogdon, to this point, has been a slightly more accurate FT shooter.   But I don't know if that really means he's a better FT shooter.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

If you put both Brogdon and Walker in a gym and they each shot 100 free throws, who would win? Does it really matter?

You can't compare straight stats. Brogdon has been great this year--good for him, but he isn't the same level of player as Walker. Eye test tells you that.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

I think we nailed our draft. G Will and Edwards have starter potential and Langford might have a crazy high ceiling. Clarke looks good but he's getting a lot of minutes on a bad team.

[slamtheking]

I think we nailed our draft. G Will and Edwards have starter potential and Langford might have a crazy high ceiling. Clarke looks good but he's getting a lot of minutes on a bad team.

I'm not sure if we 'nailed' the draft but from what I've seen I certainly think Danny did very well.  the outlier is Langford since he's not playing and hasn't shown anyone what he can do.

I disagree that GWill and Edwards have starter potential - on a good team. 
-GWill could be a starter the same way AC Green and Kurt Rambis started for the Lakers in the 80's --> blue collar player doing the dirty work but not really good enough to start unless surrounded by great players.  I see him as having a ceiling of a 7th player on a good team --> solid glue guy that does all the little things to win.  I'm hoping scoring becomes one of those things because he's been a real disappointment in that aspect. 
- Edwards is someone I see as having an Eddie House ceiling --> mediocre at running an offense but can get really hot and provide instant offense off the bench.  8th man possibly on a good team.
- Waters has potential to be a really good 3rd PG off the bench.  solid D, playmaking and shooting that could provide solid support in case of injuries in the depth chart.
- Langford's the mystery.  if he turns out to have the skills the organization has touted, he could be a solid 6th man on a good team -- good scoring and D off the bench. 

Key from this draft is that going in to next year, I would hope that the big men coming out are available at our draft slots and Danny can add to that depth since we're pretty well set at guard and swingman positions. 

[Moranis]

Would the number have worked if we didn't pursue Kemba, but rather kept Baynes and went for Brogdon instead? That might have been the only realistic alternate strategy that would have made sense to me.

TP! I really wanted us to go after Brogdon in free agency. Yes, that would have been a viable plan. As a matter of fact, we could have offered Brogdon the max and still have enough cap space to retain Baynes.

Brogdon's max would have started at $27,288,720.
Baynes salary for this season is $5,453,280.
Kemba's max started at $32,742,000.

$27,288,720 (Brogdon's max) + $5,453,280 (Baynes' salary) = 32,742,000 (Kemba's salary)

For what it's worth, Brogdon's actual salary this season starts at $20 million, but that's because the Bucks negotiated a sign and trade with the Pacers in exchange for future picks. If we were to sign Brogdon via free agency, chances are that his salary would have started north of $20 milllion.

Personally speaking, I don't like undersized guards (=Kemba) cause most of the times they are a liability on defense. Brogdon is a very good defender (especially when it comes to team defense). Not to mention, he's perfectly happy to take a secondary role on the offensive side of the ball and let his teammates flourish (Tatum-Brown-Hayward). He would have been a perfect fit for this team. But then again, Borgdon's style of play would have been the perfect fit for any team.

IMO, I take Kemba over Brogdon (and his injured foot) any day of the week.

Fair enough.

Imo, Kemba is a better scorer and a better ball handler. He's also more explosive than Brogdon.
Brogdon is better at pretty much everything else: shooter, passer, defender, rebounder, you name it.

We already have plenty of scoring options in Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Kanter-Edwards. I would rather have Brogdon+Baynes than Kemba.

Eh. Wow. That's not a good take. I like Brogdon, but he's not in the same tier as Walker. I know he's been good so far this season, but that's a 10-game sample size compared to a 8 year career. Walker is actually a really good team and individual defender. I'd take him over Brogdon.

I'd also take Walker as a shooter, mostly because I don't think Brogdon can get his shot up against elite defense in key moments.

Point guard rebounding stats are one of the most worthless stats in the game.

Not to mention the legitimate injury concerns that Brogdon has.

You'd take Kemba over Brogdon as a shooter? Wow! I couldn't disagree more!

Just for the record
Kemba's career numbers:
35.9% from 3
83.7% from the free throw line

Brogdon's career numbers:
40% from 3
90.5% from the free throw line

I'm a huge Brogdon fan, but let's be clear about these numbers.   Over the course of his career, Kemba has taken a far smaller share of his shots that have been 'wide open' compared to Brogdon.

For example, last year, Brogdon shot 26.4% of his threes with no defender within 6 feet.  He hit those at a healthy 45.7%, fattening up his overall 3PT% number.  The prior season, he shot 29.4% of threes with no defender within 6 ft and hit those at a nice 40.6%.

Kemba, meanwhile, last year shot only  12.5% of his threes with no defender within 6 ft.  He hit those at a 41% clip.  The prior season, the numbers were 16.6% and 43.4%, respectively.

In other words, it is clear that, if given wide-open looks, Kemba is pretty much the same 40%+ class of shooter that Brogdon is.   He just has not been given the luxury of not constantly being covered tightly, especially during his years in Charlotte.    Thus he has a smaller share of such wide-open shots to boost up his overall averages.

Agreed. I said it myself that Brogdon was getting plenty of open looks because he was playing next to Giannis.

Sure, the guy was getting plenty of open shots cause Giannis is such a dominant player, but he's an elite shooter nonetheless. His free throw% speaks volumes of his ability as a shooter.

TP for posting the detailed numbers though!

Still, the difference lies in the free throw%. Brogdon's worst season is at 86.5%. Kemba's best season (excluding the current one cause we're still in November) is at 86.4%. To put it another way, Brogdon at his worst as a free throw shooter is still marginally better than Kemba at his best.

Well, again, while Brogdon definitely deserves credit for being just nails when he gets to the FT line ... let's keep in mind that in his 3+ seasons he's shot a grand total of just 412 FTA (as of today).   Kemba has shot more FTA than that in three single _seasons_ and is approaching 3000 FTA for his career.

I think if you get too hyper focused on just the act of shooting and a specific percentage, you lose site of the fact that these two guys are two very fundamentally different types of scorers, who do different things on the floor and shoot under different conditions.  Even FTA can't be considered all equal.   Guys like Kemba, Lillard, Westbrook, Isaiah when he was healthy, Harden, etc. - these guys are constantly attacking and working to get to that line.   Late in games, watch closely at how those guys look when they get to the line.  They are breathing hard, amped up.   They have to master their bodies to control their pace to make the FTA.

Rondo famously would drain FTA after FTA in practice, but then would struggle in games to slow down his body to make those shots in-game.   Remember how well he shot in the Skills competition during All-Star break once?

I don't disagree with your conclusion that Brogdon, to this point, has been a slightly more accurate FT shooter.   But I don't know if that really means he's a better FT shooter.

Brogdon has his FTr up to 25.7% this year (his career best) which isn't surprising given his changed role.  Kemba is right at his career average of 28.8%.  So yeah, Kemba gets to the line more often but that is much more a function of him just getting a lot more shots.  Brogdon is without question a better FT shooter than Walker.  It isn't really all that close.  And Brogdon is quite simply a better shooter from virtually every where.  Even this year when his 3 point shooting is down, his TS% is still 57.4% which is a higher than Walker's 56.3%.  Their USG is nearly the same so they have the overall finishes in the same neighborhood.  Brogdon is a better rebounder and assister, by a pretty wide margin.  Walker takes better care of the ball in addition to getting to the line more frequently (Walker also shoots a much higher rate of 3 pointers), but Brogdon overall has had the better year and he is 12 million dollars cheaper.  You can do a lot for 12 million dollars.  Brogdon is also 3 years younger and fits a lot better timeline wise with Tatum and Brown. 

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Brogdon has his FTr up to 25.7% this year (his career best) which isn't surprising given his changed role.  Kemba is right at his career average of 28.8%.  So yeah, Kemba gets to the line more often but that is much more a function of him just getting a lot more shots.  Brogdon is without question a better FT shooter than Walker.  It isn't really all that close.  And Brogdon is quite simply a better shooter from virtually every where.  Even this year when his 3 point shooting is down, his TS% is still 57.4% which is a higher than Walker's 56.3%.  Their USG is nearly the same so they have the overall finishes in the same neighborhood.  Brogdon is a better rebounder and assister, by a pretty wide margin.  Walker takes better care of the ball in addition to getting to the line more frequently (Walker also shoots a much higher rate of 3 pointers), but Brogdon overall has had the better year and he is 12 million dollars cheaper.  You can do a lot for 12 million dollars.  Brogdon is also 3 years younger and fits a lot better timeline wise with Tatum and Brown.

Lots of stuff I disagree with here. First, "timeline" changes quite a bit if there are injury concerns. Brogdon has concerns. I would guess Walker will be healthier and more effective over the next four years than Brogdon.

FTR matters. Brogdon has been good this year, but 13 games is way too small of a sample size to compare to Walker's career FTR.

As others have argued as well, Walker has never played with a player as good as Giannis, or Middleton. Lamb was the second best player for the Hornets last year, and he is probably the fourth best player for the Pacers this year (and will be the sixth when Oladipo and Turner return). That's a direct correlation to the talent level each has been able to play with.

Walker did play with an effective Al Jefferson for one year, but you could argue that Sabonis is as effective as Jefferson so far this year. Most of Walker's stats come from him creating his own offense for the team. Brogdon has never had to face that kind of pressure.

It's just not a comparison that needs to be made. Underrating our all-star point guard by comparing him to a guy with a small sample size is ludicrous. I would seriously wonder if every GM in the league would take Walker over Brogdon with their same salaries, including Indiana.

[gpap]

Looks like Ainge has his own thoughts on the way the roster from 2018-19 was assembled.
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/11/danny-ainge-on-last-years-boston-celtics-failures-it-was-my-faultthere-we-things-i-wish-id-done-different.html