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Author Topic: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?  (Read 10042 times)

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Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2020, 09:23:06 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Respect from the officials is very real. Funny thing he and Theis have essentially the exact same foul rate per possession 7.4/100 pos. (also Baynes is at 7.3)

I wouldn't blame the refs for that Pelicans game though, he earned that foul out.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2020, 10:40:18 AM »

Offline Atzar

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 11:01:19 AM by Atzar »

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2020, 11:08:53 AM »

Online moiso

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this.
TP.  Great observations.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2020, 11:16:58 AM »

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this.
TP.  Great observations.
I'll add one as well - it's why I've been "down" on Tatum's ceiling. His ball pounding and lack of court vision kills off ball movement because teammates know that he's very likely not making the pass even if they get open, causing them to be lethargic off the ball whenever Tatum starts to pound the ball between his legs a dozen times. He's still very young so he still has a promising future ahead of him, but his ceiling looks like a mix of Paul Pierce and Paul George instead of the second coming of Kevin Durant, which isn't enough if you want a centrepiece that can lead us to title contention with simply a viable supporting cast (you probably need 2-3 All-NBA players plus 1-2 All-Stars and some very good role players if you want to contend without an MVP candidate).
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Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2020, 11:53:32 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Uh, Durant wasn't a passer at Tatum's age either. The difference between those two players isn't their passing. How many more assists do you think Durant was averaging in his third year?

The difference is Durant was getting to the line 6 more times and also just a superior shooter.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2020, 12:04:34 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this.
TP.  Great observations.
I'll add one as well - it's why I've been "down" on Tatum's ceiling. His ball pounding and lack of court vision kills off ball movement because teammates know that he's very likely not making the pass even if they get open, causing them to be lethargic off the ball whenever Tatum starts to pound the ball between his legs a dozen times. He's still very young so he still has a promising future ahead of him, but his ceiling looks like a mix of Paul Pierce and Paul George instead of the second coming of Kevin Durant, which isn't enough if you want a centrepiece that can lead us to title contention with simply a viable supporting cast (you probably need 2-3 All-NBA players plus 1-2 All-Stars and some very good role players if you want to contend without an MVP candidate).
Not to hijack the thread but I completely agree on Tatum.  He's definitely not a team offensive guy.  If he never takes another side step three pointer I'd be very happy.  I know he makes some of them but I don't judge guys on makes and misses in the short term.  I'm looking for making the right play and I'm starting to cringe when Jayson get the ball.  We can get much better shots. 

As Williams, yeah, he's much much better than people give him credit for and you're really starting to see it now.  Has the potential to be a really good glue guy that does all the little things and helps facilitate the offense.  As long as you don't expect a super duper star, you need to appreciate what Williams brings to the floor.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2020, 12:22:51 PM »

Offline Atzar

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this.
TP.  Great observations.
I'll add one as well - it's why I've been "down" on Tatum's ceiling. His ball pounding and lack of court vision kills off ball movement because teammates know that he's very likely not making the pass even if they get open, causing them to be lethargic off the ball whenever Tatum starts to pound the ball between his legs a dozen times. He's still very young so he still has a promising future ahead of him, but his ceiling looks like a mix of Paul Pierce and Paul George instead of the second coming of Kevin Durant, which isn't enough if you want a centrepiece that can lead us to title contention with simply a viable supporting cast (you probably need 2-3 All-NBA players plus 1-2 All-Stars and some very good role players if you want to contend without an MVP candidate).

FWIW I think it's likely that Tatum's ball-handling is the culprit, rather than his vision.  He has a loose handle that he doesn't trust all that much, and he often dribbles with his head down as a result.  Hard to spot teammates when you're looking at the ball.  He actually seems to me like a willing passer in the rare times that he has his head up. 

A tighter handle would unlock a whole new world of offense for Tatum.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 12:34:19 PM by Atzar »

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2020, 12:34:43 PM »

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this.
TP.  Great observations.
I'll add one as well - it's why I've been "down" on Tatum's ceiling. His ball pounding and lack of court vision kills off ball movement because teammates know that he's very likely not making the pass even if they get open, causing them to be lethargic off the ball whenever Tatum starts to pound the ball between his legs a dozen times. He's still very young so he still has a promising future ahead of him, but his ceiling looks like a mix of Paul Pierce and Paul George instead of the second coming of Kevin Durant, which isn't enough if you want a centrepiece that can lead us to title contention with simply a viable supporting cast (you probably need 2-3 All-NBA players plus 1-2 All-Stars and some very good role players if you want to contend without an MVP candidate).

FWIW I think it's likely that Tatum's ball-handling is the culprit, rather than his vision.  He has a loose handle that he doesn't trust all that much, and he often dribbles with his head down as a result.  Hard to spot teammates when you're looking at the ball.  He actually seems to me like a willing passer in the rare times that he has his head up. 

A tighter handle would unlock a whole new world of offense for Tatum.

I'm hoping this is the case. That seems fixable.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2020, 11:28:37 PM »

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Uh, Durant wasn't a passer at Tatum's age either. The difference between those two players isn't their passing. How many more assists do you think Durant was averaging in his third year?

The difference is Durant was getting to the line 6 more times and also just a superior shooter.
I mean how many third year players were averaging 29.55 points per 75 possession at +6.4% TS and -1.6 TOV%? Durant is an exception for a prospect with MVP potential lol, most young players with MVP potential are good at scoring and passing but Durant happened to be transcendent at scoring and average to below average at passing, Tatum's nowhere near that package.
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Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2020, 11:29:53 PM »

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Here's a thing from last night that I found intriguing:

The activity of our offense tends to change depending on who has the ball.  If Tatum has the ball, there is often a lot of standing around.  Kanter might start looking for rebounding position, but that's about it.  Same for Kemba, to a lesser extent.  But if Hayward has the ball, suddenly people are flying around looking for seams in the defense.  Same with Smart, sometimes.  Their teammates trust them to make the pass, so they put in a lot more effort to get open. 

Why am I putting this in Grant's thread?  Because I noticed some of that same behavior when Grant had the ball in the mid-high post area last night.  Specifically, Brown turned into a cutter, and that action generated good things for the offense a couple of times (a dunk for Brown once, free throws for Grant another time).  Guys like Hayward and Kanter tend to move off the ball regardless, but the fact that Brown is starting to move when Grant has the ball is interesting - and it suggests to me that the team is beginning to trust him as a playmaker. 

Hopefully the team continues to explore this.
TP.  Great observations.
I'll add one as well - it's why I've been "down" on Tatum's ceiling. His ball pounding and lack of court vision kills off ball movement because teammates know that he's very likely not making the pass even if they get open, causing them to be lethargic off the ball whenever Tatum starts to pound the ball between his legs a dozen times. He's still very young so he still has a promising future ahead of him, but his ceiling looks like a mix of Paul Pierce and Paul George instead of the second coming of Kevin Durant, which isn't enough if you want a centrepiece that can lead us to title contention with simply a viable supporting cast (you probably need 2-3 All-NBA players plus 1-2 All-Stars and some very good role players if you want to contend without an MVP candidate).

FWIW I think it's likely that Tatum's ball-handling is the culprit, rather than his vision.  He has a loose handle that he doesn't trust all that much, and he often dribbles with his head down as a result.  Hard to spot teammates when you're looking at the ball.  He actually seems to me like a willing passer in the rare times that he has his head up. 

A tighter handle would unlock a whole new world of offense for Tatum.

I'm hoping this is the case. That seems fixable.
^this. I'm not sure if that's the case (I've seen him completely miss passing looks with his head up) but we'll see.
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Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2020, 01:42:39 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Uh, Durant wasn't a passer at Tatum's age either. The difference between those two players isn't their passing. How many more assists do you think Durant was averaging in his third year?

The difference is Durant was getting to the line 6 more times and also just a superior shooter.
I mean how many third year players were averaging 29.55 points per 75 possession at +6.4% TS and -1.6 TOV%? Durant is an exception for a prospect with MVP potential lol, most young players with MVP potential are good at scoring and passing but Durant happened to be transcendent at scoring and average to below average at passing, Tatum's nowhere near that package.
Right which is why your statement that "he's no Durant" more of a Pierce/George while complaining about his passing was really strange. FWIW he's not far off where George/Pierce were in their third years. Not much daylight between him and Pierce and George is just a tick above them both.

http://bkref.com/tiny/JoLEO

I just disagree with you about his passing, he's not been a ball stopper this year at all. He hasn't taken the leap to being a play maker, but he's made real progress with his passing.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2020, 02:30:08 AM »

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Uh, Durant wasn't a passer at Tatum's age either. The difference between those two players isn't their passing. How many more assists do you think Durant was averaging in his third year?

The difference is Durant was getting to the line 6 more times and also just a superior shooter.
I mean how many third year players were averaging 29.55 points per 75 possession at +6.4% TS and -1.6 TOV%? Durant is an exception for a prospect with MVP potential lol, most young players with MVP potential are good at scoring and passing but Durant happened to be transcendent at scoring and average to below average at passing, Tatum's nowhere near that package.
Right which is why your statement that "he's no Durant" more of a Pierce/George while complaining about his passing was really strange. FWIW he's not far off where George/Pierce were in their third years. Not much daylight between him and Pierce and George is just a tick above them both.

http://bkref.com/tiny/JoLEO

I just disagree with you about his passing, he's not been a ball stopper this year at all. He hasn't taken the leap to being a play maker, but he's made real progress with his passing.
And I simply disagree with your take that he's close to George/Pierce when it comes to passing, assists aren't the only measure of passing ability (ntm that he's 1.425 assists behind George per 75 possessions, but hey he's only a tick behind, a near 50% gap isn't that much!). Now you could argue that both of them carried a larger playmaking role than Tatum to inflate their assist totals (Pierce's assists per 75 is more impressive than Tatum's due to the deadball era not being as assist friendly compared to the pace and space game of today), but imo Tatum can't complete some of the passes they made even if he was thrust into an on ball role, Pierce and George simply made more advanced reads and didn't miss easy passing looks at such a worrying rate in their third years.

Btw I didn't accuse him of being a ball stopper, I said that he has this tendency to pound the ball and lock into a scoring mode when he has to break his man down 1 on 1 (he generally doesn't hold onto the ball for too long), which when combined with his subpar court vision/lack of advanced passing makes him quite a bit behind 3rd year Pierce and George as a passer even though he has time on his side. I also think he has shown incremental improvement every year, but going from bad to below average isn't exactly awe-inspiring even though I see the promise in it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 07:34:46 AM by Somebody »
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Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2020, 03:49:04 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Hmmmm.

So, when are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
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Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2020, 07:12:47 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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It's not good, it has improved some but still shooting poorly for the year.  Bright kid, lacks athletic ability and length but man is he smart and strong.  I am not as optimistic as some on him because of these faults but I am rooting for him.

The Draymond Green comparisons are absurd.  Green is a better athlete and has way more length.

Re: When are we going to start talking about Grant Williams’ shooting?
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2020, 07:33:32 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Uh, Durant wasn't a passer at Tatum's age either. The difference between those two players isn't their passing. How many more assists do you think Durant was averaging in his third year?

The difference is Durant was getting to the line 6 more times and also just a superior shooter.
I mean how many third year players were averaging 29.55 points per 75 possession at +6.4% TS and -1.6 TOV%? Durant is an exception for a prospect with MVP potential lol, most young players with MVP potential are good at scoring and passing but Durant happened to be transcendent at scoring and average to below average at passing, Tatum's nowhere near that package.
Right which is why your statement that "he's no Durant" more of a Pierce/George while complaining about his passing was really strange. FWIW he's not far off where George/Pierce were in their third years. Not much daylight between him and Pierce and George is just a tick above them both.

http://bkref.com/tiny/JoLEO

I just disagree with you about his passing, he's not been a ball stopper this year at all. He hasn't taken the leap to being a play maker, but he's made real progress with his passing.
And I simply disagree with your take that he's close to George/Pierce when it comes to passing, assists aren't the only measure of passing ability (ntm that he's 1.425 assists behind George per 75 possessions, but hey he's only a tick behind, a near 50% gap isn't that much!). Now you could argue that both of them carried a larger playmaking role than Tatum to inflate their assist totals (Pierce's assists per 75 is more impressive than Tatum's due to the deadball era not being as assist friendly compared to the pace and space game of today), but imo Tatum can't complete some of the passes they made even if he was thrust into an on ball role, Pierce and George simply made more advanced reads and didn't miss easy passing looks at such a worrying rate in their third years.

Btw I didn't accuse him of being a ball stopper, I said that he has this tendency to pound the ball and lock into a scoring mode when he has to break his man down 1 on 1 (he generally doesn't hold onto the ball for too long), which when combined with his subpar court vision/lack of advanced passing makes him quite a bit behind 3rd year Pierce and George as a passer even though he has time on his side.
Completely random aside, but why do you use per-75 possessions over per-100? Is it to keep the raw numbers less gaudy and more in line with realism?
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