NBA 2019-2020 season thread

[Somebody]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

[SDceltGuy]

I have Embiid, Giannis, Kawhi, Davis, Harden and George as better maybe Kat, Jokic and Donic too. I'm not even counting Curry or Durant.

Come playoffs LBJ is still #1 until he is not. 

[Moranis]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

Having different MVP and Best player lists has nothing to do with narratives.  the MVP is a reflection on the season and often rewards players that have great seasons.  Like the year Thomas finished in the top 5 MVP voting.  He clearly wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world, but he absolutely deserved to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.  Same is true of Paul George last year when he finished 3rd in MVP voting.  He earned that and it was deserved, but George was not the 3rd best player in the world last year despite having the 3rd best season (you could argue he had a better season than Harden given his defensive prowess as well).  Jokic wasn't the 4th best player in the world last year either, yet his 4th in MVP voting was well earned.

The problem with how you do it is, Luka Doncic is clearly having a top 5 season.  Any MVP vote list that doesn't have him in the top 5 is flawed even though I think many wouldn't have Luka as a top 5 player, he has to be in the top 5 of MVP voting (at least to this point in the season).  You can't just ignore the man that is 3rd in ppg, 3rd in apg, 17th in rpg, 2nd in PER, 4th in WS, 1st in box +-, 3rd in VORP, etc. especially when his team is near the top of the conference record wise. 

[Somebody]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

Having different MVP and Best player lists has nothing to do with narratives.  the MVP is a reflection on the season and often rewards players that have great seasons.  Like the year Thomas finished in the top 5 MVP voting.  He clearly wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world, but he absolutely deserved to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.  Same is true of Paul George last year when he finished 3rd in MVP voting.  He earned that and it was deserved, but George was not the 3rd best player in the world last year despite having the 3rd best season (you could argue he had a better season than Harden given his defensive prowess as well).  Jokic wasn't the 4th best player in the world last year either, yet his 4th in MVP voting was well earned.

The problem with how you do it is, Luka Doncic is clearly having a top 5 season.  Any MVP vote list that doesn't have him in the top 5 is flawed even though I think many wouldn't have Luka as a top 5 player, he has to be in the top 5 of MVP voting (at least to this point in the season).  You can't just ignore the man that is 3rd in ppg, 3rd in apg, 17th in rpg, 2nd in PER, 4th in WS, 1st in box +-, 3rd in VORP, etc. especially when his team is near the top of the conference record wise.

I don't value situational value that much, I believe that a player's "goodness" should be the first thing taken into account in MVP votes, voting for "top season" is what results in egregious selections like young Moses Malone (he wasn't 80s Malone) winning MVP against prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Russell Westbrook beating out Harden, Curry, Durant and LeBron, etc. These selections are the definition of being narrative driven - you ignore the actual quality of the players and only gawk at the box score (yes the stats you listed out for Doncic are all box based) as well as team record that really isn't dependent on one player. Narrative might be a tiebreaker when the players are close in quality (I'm all for say Curry beating out prime LeBron in MVP voting in 2016 even though both of them were really close in terms of "goodness"), but I absolutely do not support narrative pushing an unworthy player to win an MVP award just because he put up gaudy box stats and did a "carry-job" that led to some regular season wins that season.

Does that mean those players who have narrative on their side are bad players? No, they're excellent players, but being the best of the best isn't something as simple as breaking the box score and winning some regular season games with a "carry-job".

Btw I would like to see your opinion of Davis, what makes you think that he's worse than Harden and Kawhi (he's close enough with LeBron that I can see both of them being interchangeable with each other)?

[Moranis]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

Having different MVP and Best player lists has nothing to do with narratives.  the MVP is a reflection on the season and often rewards players that have great seasons.  Like the year Thomas finished in the top 5 MVP voting.  He clearly wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world, but he absolutely deserved to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.  Same is true of Paul George last year when he finished 3rd in MVP voting.  He earned that and it was deserved, but George was not the 3rd best player in the world last year despite having the 3rd best season (you could argue he had a better season than Harden given his defensive prowess as well).  Jokic wasn't the 4th best player in the world last year either, yet his 4th in MVP voting was well earned.

The problem with how you do it is, Luka Doncic is clearly having a top 5 season.  Any MVP vote list that doesn't have him in the top 5 is flawed even though I think many wouldn't have Luka as a top 5 player, he has to be in the top 5 of MVP voting (at least to this point in the season).  You can't just ignore the man that is 3rd in ppg, 3rd in apg, 17th in rpg, 2nd in PER, 4th in WS, 1st in box +-, 3rd in VORP, etc. especially when his team is near the top of the conference record wise.

I don't value situational value that much, I believe that a player's "goodness" should be the first thing taken into account in MVP votes, voting for "top season" is what results in egregious selections like young Moses Malone (he wasn't 80s Malone) winning MVP against prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Russell Westbrook beating out Harden, Curry, Durant and LeBron, etc. These selections are the definition of being narrative driven - you ignore the actual quality of the players and only gawk at the box score (yes the stats you listed out for Doncic are all box based) as well as team record that really isn't dependent on one player. Narrative might be a tiebreaker when the players are close in quality (I'm all for say Curry beating out prime LeBron in MVP voting in 2016 even though both of them were really close in terms of "goodness"), but I absolutely do not support narrative pushing an unworthy player to win an MVP award just because he put up gaudy box stats and did a "carry-job" that led to some regular season wins that season.

Does that mean those players who have narrative on their side are bad players? No, they're excellent players, but being the best of the best isn't something as simple as breaking the box score and winning some regular season games with a "carry-job".

Btw I would like to see your opinion of Davis, what makes you think that he's worse than Harden and Kawhi (he's close enough with LeBron that I can see both of them being interchangeable with each other)?

calling Malone's MVP in 79 egregious is just nonsense.  He had over 14 WS that season (fractionally behind Kareem for the league lead).  He led the league in mpg and played all 82 games.  He led the league in rebounding by almost 5 rpg.  He also was in his 5th year, it wasn't like he was a rookie.  It is statements like this that show your age.  You've pretty consistently downgraded just how good Moses was time and time again.  Kareem certainly could have won the MVP that year (though he finished 4th in voting - Gervin was 2nd and Hayes was 3rd).  Just because Kareem was the best player in the world, doesn't mean he was the most valuable in that particular season.  It isn't a narrative.

And how do you measure "goodness" without actually accounting for performance?  You can't be good if you don't perform.  Performance matters.  In fact it is the only thing that matters when talking about your actual value to your team.  If you don't perform, you don't have value, no matter how "good" you might be. 

[Somebody]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

Having different MVP and Best player lists has nothing to do with narratives.  the MVP is a reflection on the season and often rewards players that have great seasons.  Like the year Thomas finished in the top 5 MVP voting.  He clearly wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world, but he absolutely deserved to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.  Same is true of Paul George last year when he finished 3rd in MVP voting.  He earned that and it was deserved, but George was not the 3rd best player in the world last year despite having the 3rd best season (you could argue he had a better season than Harden given his defensive prowess as well).  Jokic wasn't the 4th best player in the world last year either, yet his 4th in MVP voting was well earned.

The problem with how you do it is, Luka Doncic is clearly having a top 5 season.  Any MVP vote list that doesn't have him in the top 5 is flawed even though I think many wouldn't have Luka as a top 5 player, he has to be in the top 5 of MVP voting (at least to this point in the season).  You can't just ignore the man that is 3rd in ppg, 3rd in apg, 17th in rpg, 2nd in PER, 4th in WS, 1st in box +-, 3rd in VORP, etc. especially when his team is near the top of the conference record wise.

I don't value situational value that much, I believe that a player's "goodness" should be the first thing taken into account in MVP votes, voting for "top season" is what results in egregious selections like young Moses Malone (he wasn't 80s Malone) winning MVP against prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Russell Westbrook beating out Harden, Curry, Durant and LeBron, etc. These selections are the definition of being narrative driven - you ignore the actual quality of the players and only gawk at the box score (yes the stats you listed out for Doncic are all box based) as well as team record that really isn't dependent on one player. Narrative might be a tiebreaker when the players are close in quality (I'm all for say Curry beating out prime LeBron in MVP voting in 2016 even though both of them were really close in terms of "goodness"), but I absolutely do not support narrative pushing an unworthy player to win an MVP award just because he put up gaudy box stats and did a "carry-job" that led to some regular season wins that season.

Does that mean those players who have narrative on their side are bad players? No, they're excellent players, but being the best of the best isn't something as simple as breaking the box score and winning some regular season games with a "carry-job".

Btw I would like to see your opinion of Davis, what makes you think that he's worse than Harden and Kawhi (he's close enough with LeBron that I can see both of them being interchangeable with each other)?

calling Malone's MVP in 79 egregious is just nonsense.  He had over 14 WS that season (fractionally behind Kareem for the league lead).  He led the league in mpg and played all 82 games.  He led the league in rebounding by almost 5 rpg.  He also was in his 5th year, it wasn't like he was a rookie.  It is statements like this that show your age.  You've pretty consistently downgraded just how good Moses was time and time again.  Kareem certainly could have won the MVP that year (though he finished 4th in voting - Gervin was 2nd and Hayes was 3rd).  Just because Kareem was the best player in the world, doesn't mean he was the most valuable in that particular season.  It isn't a narrative.

And how do you measure "goodness" without actually accounting for performance?  You can't be good if you don't perform.  Performance matters.  In fact it is the only thing that matters when talking about your actual value to your team.  If you don't perform, you don't have value, no matter how "good" you might be.

Box stats and team wins aren't the only indicators of performance, point differential and evaluating a player's skillset/role are also major areas that you need to look at, and Malone falls behind Kareem quite a bit in these two areas.

It's nonsense that you ignore what I've said about gawking at the box score and continually pull up box based stats like PER and WS that heavily overrate scoring and rebounding machines to prop up your argument that '79 Moses Malone was a better player than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar when those box stats do not shed light on his weaknesses (non elite defence, very poor passing) that make him an elite finisher and not a creator who powers teams to the elite. It's nonsense that you casually dismiss how Moses failed to affect the scoreboard for his team (Houston was 12th out of 22 in SRS) while Kareem vaulted the Lakers to relevancy (4th out of 22!) because of flashy box stats and similar raw team records. It is statements like these that make it seem like our ages are reversed, the best players are usually the most valuable players that season barring injuries even though the box score and team record may disagree.

[Moranis]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

Having different MVP and Best player lists has nothing to do with narratives.  the MVP is a reflection on the season and often rewards players that have great seasons.  Like the year Thomas finished in the top 5 MVP voting.  He clearly wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world, but he absolutely deserved to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.  Same is true of Paul George last year when he finished 3rd in MVP voting.  He earned that and it was deserved, but George was not the 3rd best player in the world last year despite having the 3rd best season (you could argue he had a better season than Harden given his defensive prowess as well).  Jokic wasn't the 4th best player in the world last year either, yet his 4th in MVP voting was well earned.

The problem with how you do it is, Luka Doncic is clearly having a top 5 season.  Any MVP vote list that doesn't have him in the top 5 is flawed even though I think many wouldn't have Luka as a top 5 player, he has to be in the top 5 of MVP voting (at least to this point in the season).  You can't just ignore the man that is 3rd in ppg, 3rd in apg, 17th in rpg, 2nd in PER, 4th in WS, 1st in box +-, 3rd in VORP, etc. especially when his team is near the top of the conference record wise.

I don't value situational value that much, I believe that a player's "goodness" should be the first thing taken into account in MVP votes, voting for "top season" is what results in egregious selections like young Moses Malone (he wasn't 80s Malone) winning MVP against prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Russell Westbrook beating out Harden, Curry, Durant and LeBron, etc. These selections are the definition of being narrative driven - you ignore the actual quality of the players and only gawk at the box score (yes the stats you listed out for Doncic are all box based) as well as team record that really isn't dependent on one player. Narrative might be a tiebreaker when the players are close in quality (I'm all for say Curry beating out prime LeBron in MVP voting in 2016 even though both of them were really close in terms of "goodness"), but I absolutely do not support narrative pushing an unworthy player to win an MVP award just because he put up gaudy box stats and did a "carry-job" that led to some regular season wins that season.

Does that mean those players who have narrative on their side are bad players? No, they're excellent players, but being the best of the best isn't something as simple as breaking the box score and winning some regular season games with a "carry-job".

Btw I would like to see your opinion of Davis, what makes you think that he's worse than Harden and Kawhi (he's close enough with LeBron that I can see both of them being interchangeable with each other)?

calling Malone's MVP in 79 egregious is just nonsense.  He had over 14 WS that season (fractionally behind Kareem for the league lead).  He led the league in mpg and played all 82 games.  He led the league in rebounding by almost 5 rpg.  He also was in his 5th year, it wasn't like he was a rookie.  It is statements like this that show your age.  You've pretty consistently downgraded just how good Moses was time and time again.  Kareem certainly could have won the MVP that year (though he finished 4th in voting - Gervin was 2nd and Hayes was 3rd).  Just because Kareem was the best player in the world, doesn't mean he was the most valuable in that particular season.  It isn't a narrative.

And how do you measure "goodness" without actually accounting for performance?  You can't be good if you don't perform.  Performance matters.  In fact it is the only thing that matters when talking about your actual value to your team.  If you don't perform, you don't have value, no matter how "good" you might be.

Box stats and team wins aren't the only indicators of performance, point differential and evaluating a player's skillset/role are also major areas that you need to look at, and Malone falls behind Kareem quite a bit in these two areas.

It's nonsense that you ignore what I've said about gawking at the box score and continually pull up box based stats like PER and WS that heavily overrate scoring and rebounding machines to prop up your argument that '79 Moses Malone was a better player than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar when those box stats do not shed light on his weaknesses (non elite defence, very poor passing) that make him an elite finisher and not a creator who powers teams to the elite. It's nonsense that you casually dismiss how Moses failed to affect the scoreboard for his team (Houston was 12th out of 22 in SRS) while Kareem vaulted the Lakers to relevancy (4th out of 22!) because of flashy box stats and similar raw team records. It is statements like these that make it seem like our ages are reversed, the best players are usually the most valuable players that season barring injuries even though the box score and team record may disagree.

I never said Moses was better than Kareem.  I said he had a better season.  There is a big difference in those two statements.  In fact, I said Kareem was the best player in the world.  Seems odd you would ignore that.  I didn't bring up PER either as I don't find much value in it overall though Kareem was nearly 2 PER better than Moses that year, so it actually supports your position, not detract from it.  Kareem was obviously a better passer and defender than Moses, but Moses was all time great at generating foul shots and getting his opponents in foul trouble and was a far better rebounder.  In their 3 head to head match-ups that year they were both excellent, though Moses was better in the box score and the Rockets won 2 of the 3 games despite the Lakers having a slightly better roster.

[celticsclay]

Not going to lie, I am thoroughly enjoying how debates of how good Mose Malone was in the late 70's and early 80's have migrated from the Kevin Love trade thread to the NBA 2019-2020 thread.

[Monkhouse]

Not going to lie, I am thoroughly enjoying how debates of how good Mose Malone was in the late 70's and early 80's have migrated from the Kevin Love trade thread to the NBA 2019-2020 thread.

Same here...

Lol.

[Somebody]

Is Lebron even a top 5 player any more? He's not even the best player on his own team and was the 3rd best player in the Bucks/Lakers game tonight.

When you're the third best player to Giannis and Anthony Davis that's not exactly a black mark against being a top 5 guy as both of them are top 5 as well with Giannis being a clear top 1.

Looking forward to watching this game once I can grab it from a streaming site, since its one of the most likely Finals matchups.

Lebron is the 2nd best player in the world behind Giannis (without Durant) especially given his health.  If you told me I'd get 75+ games from Kawhi, I'd consider having him at 2, but he just misses too many games.  Harden is a better offensive player right now, but he isn't a good enough defender.  Same is also true of Doncic.

My MVP vote so far this year (which isn't the same thing obviously)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Doncic
5. Butler


My Best player in the world vote (without Durant/Curry)

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Harden
5. Davis

I'd strongly consider putting Davis at #2 or #3. I don't think he regressed at all, if anything he improved his finishing and defence (his dip in raw efficiency and advanced offensive metrics like OBPM is mainly due to the Lakers offence forcing him to take more jumpshots and let LeBron facilitate). As much as I'd like to give LeBron credit for peaking as a passer this year (the quality of his passing has jumped to another level, not just his assist numbers), I think AD deserves credit for improving as an overall player when he was already a monster last season (he was one of the best two way big men last year if not the best, but his stats were dragged down by his trade demand).

My vote for best player in the world without Durant and Curry:
1. Giannis
2. Davis
3. LeBron
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

That would be my MVP vote as well, I do not like voting differently from who I believe to be the best players in the league (the rankings have taken injuries into account) just because of narrative driven reasons.

Having different MVP and Best player lists has nothing to do with narratives.  the MVP is a reflection on the season and often rewards players that have great seasons.  Like the year Thomas finished in the top 5 MVP voting.  He clearly wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world, but he absolutely deserved to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.  Same is true of Paul George last year when he finished 3rd in MVP voting.  He earned that and it was deserved, but George was not the 3rd best player in the world last year despite having the 3rd best season (you could argue he had a better season than Harden given his defensive prowess as well).  Jokic wasn't the 4th best player in the world last year either, yet his 4th in MVP voting was well earned.

The problem with how you do it is, Luka Doncic is clearly having a top 5 season.  Any MVP vote list that doesn't have him in the top 5 is flawed even though I think many wouldn't have Luka as a top 5 player, he has to be in the top 5 of MVP voting (at least to this point in the season).  You can't just ignore the man that is 3rd in ppg, 3rd in apg, 17th in rpg, 2nd in PER, 4th in WS, 1st in box +-, 3rd in VORP, etc. especially when his team is near the top of the conference record wise.

I don't value situational value that much, I believe that a player's "goodness" should be the first thing taken into account in MVP votes, voting for "top season" is what results in egregious selections like young Moses Malone (he wasn't 80s Malone) winning MVP against prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Russell Westbrook beating out Harden, Curry, Durant and LeBron, etc. These selections are the definition of being narrative driven - you ignore the actual quality of the players and only gawk at the box score (yes the stats you listed out for Doncic are all box based) as well as team record that really isn't dependent on one player. Narrative might be a tiebreaker when the players are close in quality (I'm all for say Curry beating out prime LeBron in MVP voting in 2016 even though both of them were really close in terms of "goodness"), but I absolutely do not support narrative pushing an unworthy player to win an MVP award just because he put up gaudy box stats and did a "carry-job" that led to some regular season wins that season.

Does that mean those players who have narrative on their side are bad players? No, they're excellent players, but being the best of the best isn't something as simple as breaking the box score and winning some regular season games with a "carry-job".

Btw I would like to see your opinion of Davis, what makes you think that he's worse than Harden and Kawhi (he's close enough with LeBron that I can see both of them being interchangeable with each other)?

calling Malone's MVP in 79 egregious is just nonsense.  He had over 14 WS that season (fractionally behind Kareem for the league lead).  He led the league in mpg and played all 82 games.  He led the league in rebounding by almost 5 rpg.  He also was in his 5th year, it wasn't like he was a rookie.  It is statements like this that show your age.  You've pretty consistently downgraded just how good Moses was time and time again.  Kareem certainly could have won the MVP that year (though he finished 4th in voting - Gervin was 2nd and Hayes was 3rd).  Just because Kareem was the best player in the world, doesn't mean he was the most valuable in that particular season.  It isn't a narrative.

And how do you measure "goodness" without actually accounting for performance?  You can't be good if you don't perform.  Performance matters.  In fact it is the only thing that matters when talking about your actual value to your team.  If you don't perform, you don't have value, no matter how "good" you might be.

Box stats and team wins aren't the only indicators of performance, point differential and evaluating a player's skillset/role are also major areas that you need to look at, and Malone falls behind Kareem quite a bit in these two areas.

It's nonsense that you ignore what I've said about gawking at the box score and continually pull up box based stats like PER and WS that heavily overrate scoring and rebounding machines to prop up your argument that '79 Moses Malone was a better player than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar when those box stats do not shed light on his weaknesses (non elite defence, very poor passing) that make him an elite finisher and not a creator who powers teams to the elite. It's nonsense that you casually dismiss how Moses failed to affect the scoreboard for his team (Houston was 12th out of 22 in SRS) while Kareem vaulted the Lakers to relevancy (4th out of 22!) because of flashy box stats and similar raw team records. It is statements like these that make it seem like our ages are reversed, the best players are usually the most valuable players that season barring injuries even though the box score and team record may disagree.

I never said Moses was better than Kareem.  I said he had a better season.  There is a big difference in those two statements.  In fact, I said Kareem was the best player in the world.  Seems odd you would ignore that.  I didn't bring up PER either as I don't find much value in it overall though Kareem was nearly 2 PER better than Moses that year, so it actually supports your position, not detract from it.  Kareem was obviously a better passer and defender than Moses, but Moses was all time great at generating foul shots and getting his opponents in foul trouble and was a far better rebounder.  In their 3 head to head match-ups that year they were both excellent, though Moses was better in the box score and the Rockets won 2 of the 3 games despite the Lakers having a slightly better roster.

And what I'm saying is that he didn't even have the better season. Keep on reading the box score, they really "show your age" . WS is also a box based stat that heavily favours players with massive box stats, it's not as bad as PER but it's in a similar vein.

[Vox_Populi]

That Dallas win away by the Celtics is looking like an underrated win. They almost beat Miami in the game they lost Luka. Beat Milwaukee. And are about to beat Philly.

[footey]

That Dallas win away by the Celtics is looking like an underrated win. They almost beat Miami in the game they lost Luka. Beat Milwaukee. And are about to beat Philly.

Mavs played great tonight. Better road team lol.

[MJohnnyboy]

The moment you realize Dallas is 11-2 on the road... AND ONE OF THOSE LOSSES WAS AGAINST THE GORDON HAYWARD-LESS CELTICS!

 

[Sophomore]

That Dallas win away by the Celtics is looking like an underrated win. They almost beat Miami in the game they lost Luka. Beat Milwaukee. And are about to beat Philly.

Mavs played great tonight. Better road team lol.

Edit - made a bad comment and deleted it...

[Vox_Populi]

That Dallas win away by the Celtics is looking like an underrated win. They almost beat Miami in the game they lost Luka. Beat Milwaukee. And are about to beat Philly.

Mavs played great tonight. Better road team lol.

They're obviously well-coached and Porzingis has begun to find his groove these past games.

On Philly's end, how embarrassing is it to lose to zone in back to back games? I worry for Brett Brown's job security.