2019 Historical Draft Thread(TIME TO REVEAL THE WINNER!!!)

[Roy H.]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 David Lee after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as David Lee averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

I think he's a bit too reliant on pace adjustment.  Bill Russell's 8 or 9 blocks per game amounting to perhaps only the 60th best season ever?  Behind Jim McIlvaine and Tree Rollins?  Does that make sense to you?

[Roy H.]

Btw was my Draymond pick really that much of a reach? I felt like I really needed an elite defensive guy who could defend the 3 and 4 in this exercise (and also provide crazy help defense to cover for nash and curry), and Draymond's additive skills (passing, shooting) make him really valuable imo. He's basically a smaller KG that I can play at the 3 against huge teams.

I think so.  Draymond's value comes from his ability to play the 5 in the current league, and from his ability to be the primary passer on the team.

Against the teams in this league, Draymond is confined to a 4.  He's not quick enough to defend elite small forwards, and is nowhere near big enough to defend the centers in this league. 

He also benefits tremendously because teams in 2019 can't defend the Warriors without helping, leaving Green wide open.  Is that going to happen here?  I suspect not, at least not as much with so many elite defenders.  Offensively, outside of those open threes, he adds very little.  He ranks near the bottom of the league in creating his own shot.

I think Green is a bottom 2 or 3 player in this league.

[gouki88]

Btw was my Draymond pick really that much of a reach? I felt like I really needed an elite defensive guy who could defend the 3 and 4 in this exercise (and also provide crazy help defense to cover for nash and curry), and Draymond's additive skills (passing, shooting) make him really valuable imo. He's basically a smaller KG that I can play at the 3 against huge teams.

I likely would have gone with a wing/guard defender (rumour has it that I'll be taking a strong defensive guard with 7:1 ) to balance out Nash, but I don't think it's a very big reach. Draymond has his flaws, but he contributes to winning at every level and has a really unique skill-set. A reach, but I wouldn't think of it as some sort of team-breaker.

[Somebody]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 ****** after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as ***** averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

Yeah you've misunderstood. What I said is that Russell slowed Wilt down to a scoring profile akin to prime ******. You could read the link to see for yourself instead of dismissing it tbh. Agree with your point about pace adjustment though, it's not a perfect stat.

[Roy H.]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 David Lee after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as David Lee averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

Yeah you've misunderstood. What I said is that Russell slowed Wilt down to a scoring profile akin to prime David Lee. You could read the link to see for yourself instead of dismissing it tbh.

I read it.  I don't believe it.  And, I suspect you can't explain it, because it doesn't make sense.

Wilt averaged essentially 30 points and 28 rebounds against Russell.  That's not the equivalent of David Lee.  However, let's assume for discussion that it is. 

If 30 points / 28 rebounds = David Lee, then what do you make of Wilt's 30 points / 23 rebounds career averages?  That makes him a poor man's David Lee, right?  Similar offense, worse rebounding?

The same metric tells us -- according to the article -- that ****, *****, ***** and ***** were better shot-blockers than Russell.  Do you agree with this?

This is what happens when somebody manipulates statistics in a way that makes no sense at all.  Mark Twain is proven right on a daily basis.  (I don't mean to be flippant, but I think that some of his projections are all kinds of nonsense.  The math may work out, but the conclusions don't.)

[gouki88]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 David Lee after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as David Lee averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

Yeah you've misunderstood. What I said is that Russell slowed Wilt down to a scoring profile akin to prime David Lee. You could read the link to see for yourself instead of dismissing it tbh.

I read it.  I don't believe it.  And, I suspect you can't explain it, because it doesn't make sense.

Wilt averaged essentially 30 points and 28 rebounds against Russell.  That's not the equivalent of David Lee.  However, let's assume for discussion that it is. 

If 30 points / 28 rebounds = David Lee, then what do you make of Wilt's 30 points / 23 rebounds career averages?  That makes him a poor man's David Lee, right?  Similar offense, worse rebounding?

Gotta say I'm chuckling at Wilt = poor man's David Lee.

[Roy H.]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 David Lee after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as David Lee averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

Yeah you've misunderstood. What I said is that Russell slowed Wilt down to a scoring profile akin to prime David Lee. You could read the link to see for yourself instead of dismissing it tbh.

I read it.  I don't believe it.  And, I suspect you can't explain it, because it doesn't make sense.

Wilt averaged essentially 30 points and 28 rebounds against Russell.  That's not the equivalent of David Lee.  However, let's assume for discussion that it is. 

If 30 points / 28 rebounds = David Lee, then what do you make of Wilt's 30 points / 23 rebounds career averages?  That makes him a poor man's David Lee, right?  Similar offense, worse rebounding?

Gotta say I'm chuckling at Wilt = poor man's David Lee.

Lee is going to be the steal of the draft. 

[Somebody]

Btw was my Draymond pick really that much of a reach? I felt like I really needed an elite defensive guy who could defend the 3 and 4 in this exercise (and also provide crazy help defense to cover for nash and curry), and Draymond's additive skills (passing, shooting) make him really valuable imo. He's basically a smaller KG that I can play at the 3 against huge teams.

I think so.  Draymond's value comes from his ability to play the 5 in the current league, and from his ability to be the primary passer on the team.

Against the teams in this league, Draymond is confined to a 4.  He's not quick enough to defend elite small forwards, and is nowhere near big enough to defend the centers in this league. 

He also benefits tremendously because teams in 2019 can't defend the Warriors without helping, leaving Green wide open.  Is that going to happen here?  I suspect not, at least not as much with so many elite defenders.  Offensively, outside of those open threes, he adds very little.  He ranks near the bottom of the league in creating his own shot.

I think Green is a bottom 2 or 3 player in this league.

Interesting. I was thinking of utilising him as a smaller KG-elite passing and help defense as a low usage guy.

[RPGenerate]

I probably won't win this, but I want to have the most exciting, interesting team. Fast breaks with Cp3, Vince, and 'Nique would be soooo fun.

[Somebody]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 David Lee after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as David Lee averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

Yeah you've misunderstood. What I said is that Russell slowed Wilt down to a scoring profile akin to prime David Lee. You could read the link to see for yourself instead of dismissing it tbh.

I read it.  I don't believe it.  And, I suspect you can't explain it, because it doesn't make sense.

Wilt averaged essentially 30 points and 28 rebounds against Russell.  That's not the equivalent of David Lee.  However, let's assume for discussion that it is. 

If 30 points / 28 rebounds = David Lee, then what do you make of Wilt's 30 points / 23 rebounds career averages?  That makes him a poor man's David Lee, right?  Similar offense, worse rebounding?

The same metric tells us -- according to the article -- that Jim McIlvaine, Eddie Griffin, Andrew Lang, the immortal Michael Stewart and Tree Rollins were better shot-blockers than Russell.  Do you agree with this?

This is what happens when somebody manipulates statistics in a way that makes no sense at all.  Mark Twain is proven right on a daily basis.

It never said anything about the rebounding? Wilt's efficiency was slowed down a lot by Russell, and his scoring profile in those matchups were similar to prime David Lee if you adjust for pace, which is around league average. The article did admit that Wilt's offense against the rest of the league was GOAT level, not only because of scoring volume, but because his TS efficiency was 60+%. But yeah I certainly don't take those stats as the bible (eg. Spencer Dinwiddie being tops in the "creation" stat of the website iirc, which I don't buy at all), they tend to overrate some role players and underrate some superstars, which at that point would require you to watch the games and come to your own conclusion based on the eye test. My point at the end is that Russell slowed down Wilt better than any other legendary center of his era did, and it lead to great results.

[gouki88]

I probably won't win this, but I want to have the most exciting, interesting team. Fast breaks with Cp3, Vince, and 'Nique would be soooo fun.

It'd be like an in-game dunk contest sometimes

[Somebody]

That said, I'm with Silky in that I do think the Ewing love is a big higher than I'd expect, particularly for defense.  He was a 3x second-team all-defensive player ('88, '89, '92).

In '88, he got four votes for DPOY (tied for 5th place)
In '89, he got two votes for DPOY (6th place)
In '92 he didn't get a single vote for DPOY (while I happen to have three starters who received votes that year, heh)

Those were his only three all-defensive (second-team) seasons.  If I'm calling a spade a spade, then I'll say Ewing was a good defender.  Nothing more.  When we're looking at him in this game compared to all-time great defenders and their best defensive seasons?  He's a good defender, he can hold his own to some extent, but he's not an above average defender in this league.  He's clearly a rung below at least 7/12 centers -- Hakeem (if a C), Kareem, Russell, Walton, Mutumbo, Willis Reed, and David Robinson.  And is he definitely better than the others (Moses, Cowens, Shaq, Wilt) to take the claim of 8th best center in the league?  He's in that mix but I wouldn't say definitively the best of that bunch.

Oh and just for fun... 

Ewing was a really good defender. I don’t see any shame in being voted “only” the 5th or 6th best defender in a league of 400 players.

Context matters, though.  He was competing for the all-defense team with Hakeem, Robinson and Dikembe. Some years he beat them out, others he didn’t. All four of those guys are legit all-time defenders. And, like Hakeem and Robinson, Ewing was a great offensive player.

Ewing isn’t slow, or average. He’s just the third most dominant center of his era, behind Hakeem and the Admiral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfxGMm4NehI

Can't believe the disrespect that Shaquille O'Neal is getting on here...dude even laced em up for BOS for a while.

The above clip is his shot blocking, only...I realize that shot-blocking is only a part of defending but make no mistake he patrolled and intimidated.

Shame that folks seemed to categorize his skill as just being bigger than anyone else and don't appear to give him credit for his timing and athleticism.

This seems to be the case...to ME, at least.

I consider Ewing and Shaq to be from different eras.  In terms of defense, though, I’d slot Shaq behind all four of Hakeem, Admiral, Dikembe and Ewing.

In his best years, though, Shaq would be plenty good enough to defend in this league. I don’t think his defense is a tremendous strength for you, but it’s certainly not a weakness.

I still think Russell should be considered as an all-time great defensive center, even if he did have the body of a current 3/4. There is another smallish center who was also right up there on that list too.

Shaq was a great defensive center. He would defensively and physically dominate 95% of centers to ever play. But he is just a rung below some guys on that all time ladder when it comes defense.

But as the best ever two way center, Shaq is right there right after Hakeem as I consider Kareem and Wilt much too offensive minded and Russell too defensive minded.

Russell was 6'9.75 without shoes, which is as tall as guys like Robert Williams.

But only listed at 215lbs. Naturally he was likely closer to 230 by the end of his career, and he'd definitely have no issues being strong enough in today's game, but he was quite slim for a big man when compared to today's standards.

He was such a ridiculous athlete, competitor and smart defender that it doesn't really matter

His ~220 pound days had him anchoring the best defenses of all time against 260-280 pound behemoths like Wilt though lol.

Bill is maybe the best defender of all-time.

That said, his ability to defend Wilt is really overblown.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Those are partial game logs of their head to head matchups. 

Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Russ, and 28.2 rebounds in the regular season.  Wilt scored 40+ on Russell 20 times, including games of 62, 53, 52 and 50 points.  Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell and the Celtics.

In the playoffs it was similar:  25.7 points, 28.0 rebounds, and 50.8% FG% for Wilt.  Wilt had highs of 50 points and 41 rebounds in the playoffs against Russell.

Russell made Wilt work hard, but in truth, Chamberlain did his part overall.  The Celtics strategy was moreso to shut everybody else down and to let Wilt struggle to get his points, and that proved effective.

But Russell was the only center who was capable of making Wilt work like that, and come out victorious. Wilt's raw numbers look incredible against Russell, but his best season's h2h stats have a scoring profile like a 2010 David Lee after adjusting for pace!
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/backpicks-goat-3-bill-russell/
This article explains how transcendent his defense really was using statistics.

If that metric finds that average 30 / 30 in the 60s is the same as David Lee averaging 20 / 12, I'm not sure that I'd agree.

Wilt averaged roughly his career average in terms of PPG against Russ, and exceeded his career RPG.  Isn't the natural extension of your argument (or that article's argument) that Wilt's career equates roughly to David Lee in 2010?  Because I don't buy that at all.

Yeah you've misunderstood. What I said is that Russell slowed Wilt down to a scoring profile akin to prime David Lee. You could read the link to see for yourself instead of dismissing it tbh.

I read it.  I don't believe it.  And, I suspect you can't explain it, because it doesn't make sense.

Wilt averaged essentially 30 points and 28 rebounds against Russell.  That's not the equivalent of David Lee.  However, let's assume for discussion that it is. 

If 30 points / 28 rebounds = David Lee, then what do you make of Wilt's 30 points / 23 rebounds career averages?  That makes him a poor man's David Lee, right?  Similar offense, worse rebounding?

Gotta say I'm chuckling at Wilt = poor man's David Lee.

Lee is going to be the steal of the draft.

Lol that made me laugh. TPs to both of you.

[Somebody]

After 6 rounds, here's the 2019 Celticsstrong Historical Draft Detroit Pistons.

                     

                                       

It doesn't have the flashiest of superstars, but I'm happy I was able to build a starting five to my liking, and the identity that I want. A tenacious defensive group, and a well balanced team on offense. An unselfish team that fits well together and does not take away the strengths from the other.

Now it's time to shore up the bench.

I'm quite satisfied as to where I'm at. Although it's quite slim pickings for me as far as who I want as a bench unit. Here's hoping I land the guys I have on my board. But for now, I think that's a legitimate starting 5.

Hope you guys don't mind, but I would like to bump this and see what you guys think. I'm trying to gauge where we stand as a team, what we might need as far as depth, and where we are in the race. I have a few ideas in mind, of course barring the guys I like getting picked before I do, but I could use some feedback from other minds as well.

Thanks.

I'd try to find a guy who can take the ball out of Hayes' hands and score more efficiently tbh. I'm not hot on the idea of letting Hayes chuck a ton of shots-he's a high volume, low efficiency scorer, which is one of the worst combinations you can have for a #1 option. But there aren't many players left who can really do that, so what I'd try to do is draft BPA with every pick-get the highest valued guy even if he doesn't fit your team, and then try to trade for a guy who can give Kawhi enough shots to thrive and take the ball out of Hayes' hands as much as possible, then trade for some glue guys to make the fit work. I'd consider trading away Dikembe-Hayes' best defensive stretch was when he was a C, and Mutombo's offense is a boat anchor for your team that's already lacking in scoring and creation.

[Somebody]

Would also like to ask you guys about your thoughts on my team. What are my team's strengths and weaknesses, and how do I remedy the latter? An analysis of where I currently stand among the 12 is also welcome.

PG: Stephen Curry/Steve Nash
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Julius Erving
PF: Kevin Garnett/Draymond Green
C: Dave Cowens

[RPGenerate]

Would also like to ask you guys about your thoughts on my team. What are my team's strengths and weaknesses, and how do I remedy the latter? An analysis of where I currently stand among the 12 is also welcome.

PG: Stephen Curry/Steve Nash
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Julius Erving
PF: Kevin Garnett/Draymond Green
C: Dave Cowens

Really good team, but if I had one thing you could improve on, maybe your guard defense? T-Mac was never the best defensively, and Curry/Nash are definitely susceptible to being picked on by talented guards. Perhaps a combo guard that can raise hell on D? A guy you can sub in if Curry or T-Mac are struggling defensively?