The ridiculous pessimism regarding Jaylen Brown

[footey]

Just for some fun, I found the thread early last season discussing Brown and comparing him to Jeff Green.  I've updated the numbers below to include year 3.  They are per 36.

Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)

Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)

Year 3
18.1 p, 5.9 r, 1.9 a, 1.3 s, 0.6 b, 1.9 t, 3.5 f - 52.9 2PT, 34.4 3PT, 65.8 FT (54.7 TS)
14.7 p, 5.8 r, 1.6 a, 1.2 s, 0.9 b, 1.6 t, 2.6 f - 50.3 2PT, 33.3 3PT, 74.0 FT (53.0 TS)

Brown's reduced role helped with his per 36 totals and he has started to separate a bit more from Green overall, but also looking at the numbers you can see a general lack of real growth from Brown from year 2 to year 3 which is concerning as many players take a pretty decent jump from year 2 to year 3.  That said, not all do and get their big jump from year 3 to year 4.  So hopefully Brown takes that latter path and reaches that next level.

I think most of us will agree that extenuating circumstances (injury, too many wings, Kyrie Irving/Anthony Davis drama) in year 3 can't be dismissed; almost a wasted year in terms of his development.  I hope he has a great year 4, and actually expect he will. The key to Brown's numbers escalating is the pace of our offense. If we can unleash more transitional offense, his scoring numbers should go up a lot.  The new personnel should help us trend in that direction.  Stevens certainly wants to promote it.

[Th3M2n]

Unless he shows much greater consistency and growth this year he is ABSOLUTELY not worth a max.  He has shown flashes of superstar ability, but has yet to consistently put it all together.  Throwing $ at JUST potential is how you burn down a franchise for years.

He’s worth resigning and resigning him for big bucks...but not MAX big bucks based on his production so far

[gpap]

I've recently noticed that people have soured on Jaylen Brown a lot after this season, with most labelling him as an average 3 and D role player with a ceiling of being a wing who's not elite at anything, while Tatum and Hayward still receive unlimited backing and love from Celtics fans as a future star or a star waiting to bounce back. While I do not intend to turn this thread into one that compares Brown with the two, I would like to point out that Brown is a top tier young wing who is underrated by his own fans, who believe that he is a complementary player with no shot at NBA stardom.

1. Underrated offensive potential
Even after a turbulent season for Jaylen Brown, which included him completely ****ting the bed to start off the season as well as only limited to playing around 20 MPG when he was hitting his stride to close out the season (Stevens would refuse to play him more than 20-22 minutes per game at the end of the season unless he set the court on fire from the get go), he still managed to lead our main rotation players in points per touch, a statistic that shows how many points a player scores on average every time he touches the ball. It also hasn't been due to a decrease in usage rate, as Brown managed to be among the leaders in this category ever since his rookie season (that season was his lowest, ranked 5th overall if you count Demetrius Jackson's measly sample size of 3.4 MPG), and managed to maintain that type of efficiency in his playoff run last season (best points per touch by far on that playoff squad, leading second placed Jayson Tatum 0.402 to 0.346 on 24% usage). People love to harp on how he is unable to score as a main option, but keep on ignoring the stats that point out his ability to score efficiently, even on increased usage.
Link for reference: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&dir=1&sort=PTS_PER_TOUCH

2. Ignorance of the circumstances surrounding him this season
It wasn't a very good season for Brown this year, but people often forget that his stats were very likely muted due to the difficulties he faced this season. It's one thing to play bad in the first half of the season and have it affect your stats, but it's another thing when you don't get the playing time you deserve and get stuck in a bench role, not to mention having little to no plays run for you to make plays when you're getting your act together affecting your stats. Brown has shown flashes of last year's playoff run when he was given a longer leash by Brad Stevens in the second half of the season, such as the loss against Charlotte that was ruined due to the team refusing to go back to Brown, who was tearing it up that game. When you look past such circumstances, you'll likely see a young wing who has improved every season and still has a lot of room to grow as a player, instead of a stagnating youngster who has a lack of desire and ability to develop into a star.

All in all, I don't see why is the board so down on a 23 year old wing who has shown that he can perform on the biggest stage of the game and has shown that run was not a fluke whenever the team gives him the opportunity to shine. He does have concerns, but his strengths are often overlooked and ignored, and I feel that we should be more optimistic on him if we are going to believe that Tatum is a future superstar and Hayward will bounce back to Utah Hayward next season. I'm all in for giving him and Tatum the reins of the team in the future.

Man, no offense but take a chill pill.

We all know you're a HUGE Jaylen Brown fan. I noticed it in every single game thread last season.

If you're a fan of the guy, great!! But there's no need to write a novel trying to convince everyone that he's as good as you think he is.

Personally, I think he's extremely overrated.

But, that's just my opinion.

We all have differing views on different players.

[gpap]

I love brown amd firmly believe that he and tatum are the both the path forward.

They are to be placed above everyone else until they consistantly prove otherwise.

Why are they to be placed above everyone else?

What have they accomplished to be placed on a pedestal?

I don't think they should be placed above or below anyone

Is there a solar eclipse today?

[gpap]

I think it is silly, I guess now that Rozier is gone that people want to hate on Brown as a new target.   The dude played well last year and adjusted.

Lol, I don't think we have to worry about any hate towards Brown on this site.

[nickagneta]

I have never understood the tremendously pessimistic views on Jaylen, but I might be this site's biggest Jaylen Brown shill. Still many across the board, and even in this thread, have made claims that Jaylen has just proven wrong time and again.

People, even those in this thread, complained over and over that Brown has a low BBIQ. Well, Jaylen has proven that silly. He has gotten better every year. His growth is across multiple aspects in his game. And you don't see that with low BBIQ players. Perfect example of this is being basketball self aware enough to reduce the most efficient shot in his arsenal, the mid range 16-22 foot, 2 point jumper. The shot slowly disapeared from his game to the point in 9 playoff games, he didn't take one. That is pure proof his basketball IQ is not close to being low.

Then there was the complaints about his handle. Well, he has improved it immensely. He has a eurostep he uses on fast breaks and is making the right passes much more often on drives to the basket without losing the ball. His turnover percentage has dropped from 12.5% his first year to 10% last year. His handle might be better than Tatum's at this point.

Then there is the claim about being a faux intellectual. He is 22 years old and was voted in as an executive VP of the NBPA. You don't get that high up in the NBA Players Association by faking your intelligence or intellect. He has been named a Director Fellowship at an MIT Media Lab. The dude is for real extremely intelligent and works on that part of his person as hard as he does his body and NBA game.

A newer complaint seems to be coming about his attitude and work ethic. This is just more Jaylen Brown pessimism that holds little basis in reality. Brown stood up to a poor leader that was causing dissention on the team and told Kyrie to also look in the mirror if he wants to see what is wrong with the team. That isn't attitude. That is leadership. That is sticking up for his teammates. That is a positive response to a crap criticism from a divisive person that didn't even want to be here.

And from all reports, Brown works his ass off. Just because he also has other off season interests and, you know, a real life, people suddenly think he doesn't work hard or enough on his game. That is patently ridiculous. The kid comes back every September in the best shape on the team with better skills and at least one new move that really expands his offensive repertoire.

And, despite all the crap drama on this team last year, the coaches and management singled out Jaylen's excellent acceptance of a new, more reduced role and how he thrived in it.

I think Jaylen still has ridiculous upside and will once more show those who make up some of these inaccurate, and sometimes far fetched claims, just how wrong they are. I still think Brown ends up the better player between Tatum and Brown.

[jambr380]

Brown has a lot of Kyrie in him with the psedudo intellectual talks, vague social media quotes and the love of attention.

Can't question his work ethic or desire to get better. By all accounts he's a gym rat.

I think we'll learn about him this season.

There is nothing pseudo-intellectual about Jaylen Brown. The dude is true an intellectual as he continues to further his education and understanding of the world. Don't you remember this classic game of, "Who said it? Kyrie Irving or Jaden Smith." The two shouldn't really be compared in any way, shape, or form.

Personally, Brown has always come off as kind of pseudo-intellectual to me.  Here's an except from a Zack Lowe/Jackie MacMullan podcast back in December:

JM: “...a renaissance man, if you will. He’s probably not quite as much of that as he thinks he is- and I think sometimes that causes issues in their locker room. And I don’t think they dislike him Zach, but I think they’re like “what’s with this dude?”

ZL: On that last part, and I want to choose my words carefully here...there is some thought that he’s not that much of what he thinks he is. There’s some “there goes Jaylen again talking about whatever - yoga.” And there’s some smirking in the locker room”

And I wrote a longish post about it then if anybody cares to read it.  He has always come off as trying to be appear intelligent rather than actually being intelligent to me.

I read your post - I guess your definition of intelligence is slightly different than the one I am referring to. I think Jaylen's 'intelligence' is one of trying to understand the world better by educating himself and experiencing it. I realize it doesn't necessarily mean he is locked in a room for years studying advanced mathematics or quantum mechanics. In a way, he is a 'renaissance man' in that his mix of acquiring knowledge varies across many spectrums and he always seems eager for the next adventure.

I just don't think 'pseudo-intellectual' is a term that fits him. He may be annoying to actual intellectuals who grind night and day looking for answers to the universe's infinite problems, I just wouldn't compare him to someone like Kyrie; a dude who seems to read a couple of articles and assumes everybody cares about his new twisted view on reality. The only thing consistent about Kyrie's opinions is that they are inconsistent...and they are opinions, where I believe Jaylen is in search of more concrete factual information.

If Jaylen weren't a basketball player, I imagine he would be pushing for a doctorate and continuing to make himself a better person. In contrast, Kyrie might be yelling at strangers on the street (okay, maybe I'm being a little harsh  ). They both have platforms, I just think Jaylen has more substance to his.

[Moranis]

Just for some fun, I found the thread early last season discussing Brown and comparing him to Jeff Green.  I've updated the numbers below to include year 3.  They are per 36.

Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)

Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)

Year 3
18.1 p, 5.9 r, 1.9 a, 1.3 s, 0.6 b, 1.9 t, 3.5 f - 52.9 2PT, 34.4 3PT, 65.8 FT (54.7 TS)
14.7 p, 5.8 r, 1.6 a, 1.2 s, 0.9 b, 1.6 t, 2.6 f - 50.3 2PT, 33.3 3PT, 74.0 FT (53.0 TS)

Brown's reduced role helped with his per 36 totals and he has started to separate a bit more from Green overall, but also looking at the numbers you can see a general lack of real growth from Brown from year 2 to year 3 which is concerning as many players take a pretty decent jump from year 2 to year 3.  That said, not all do and get their big jump from year 3 to year 4.  So hopefully Brown takes that latter path and reaches that next level.

Again, you can't take these kinds of comparisons without context. Brown was thrown into a completely different role this past year, which had him underperforming in the first part of the year. However, by the middle of the season or so he found his rhythm and was much, much better. So of course his numbers from year 2 to year 3 were not great, as his role was completely different.

Jeff Green also had a lot of roster turmoil and was playing out of position at PF.  Now Green was still starting and getting big minutes, but those were at PF, a position he never should have been playing.  Again, I hope Brown doesn't follow a similar path, but I do think he is better at SF and better with the ball in his hand more, neither of which are all that likely in Boston.  At some point when you play guys out of position they just stopped growing like they should.

[wiley]

A comparison of Jaylen Brown to Jeff Green is a useless exercise.  Maybe in 3-4 years we can look at their numbers and try to conclude something.

JB is the opposite of a pseudo intellectual.  Look up "pseudo".
(And see eloquent post above on that by Jambr380)

Neither Al Horford nor Terry Rozier are considered intellectuals.  Jaylen called Al the smartest guy on the team and Terry the funniest.  Humor is a form of intelligence, and clearly Jaylen looked up to both Al and Terry.  If he were a pseudo intellectual, he'd have put himself above them.  Instead, he appreciates them for their strengths. 

[jambr380]

A comparison of Jaylen Brown to Jeff Green is a useless exercise.  Maybe in 3-4 years we can look at their numbers and try to conclude something.

JB is the opposite of a pseudo intellectual.  Look up "pseudo".
(And see eloquent post above on that by Jambr380)

Neither Al Horford nor Terry Rozier are considered intellectuals.  Jaylen called Al the smartest guy on the team and Terry the funniest.  Humor is a form of intelligence, and clearly Jaylen looked up to both Al and Terry.  If he were a pseudo intellectual, he'd have put himself above them.  Instead, he appreciates them for their strengths.

I agree on both points!

The thing with Jeff Green that people seem to forget is that he missed an entire year due to a heart condition! I don't know that he ever would have been a true star - I am guessing probably not - but I have to assume that your priorities might shift a bit when you almost die. I always thought it was unfair when people questioned his passion. He still remained a productive player for years after the surgery; that is a success story in my book.

As for Jaylen's passion - just don't question it. He may not have the natural ability/smoothness that somebody like Tatum has, but if he doesn't become a star, it won't be because of lack of trying. His focus and determination are his two best attributes in my opinion. I literally laugh out loud when I see posts condemning his travel - like he is just sitting on the beach for months sipping pina coladas.

[ManUp]

I love Jaylen.

I think he is a surefire all-star, he just needs to learn his own strengths and weaknesses. I think he has Klay Thompson/Khris Middleton type potential. He will probably never be the shot creator that Tatum is or can be, but I think his catch and shoot ability and his north/south drives are the perfect formula for a high efficiency scorer. His free throws are what's really holding him back he leave way too many points at the line.

[ManUp]

I have never understood the tremendously pessimistic views on Jaylen, but I might be this site's biggest Jaylen Brown shill. Still many across the board, and even in this thread, have made claims that Jaylen has just proven wrong time and again.

People, even those in this thread, complained over and over that Brown has a low BBIQ. Well, Jaylen has proven that silly. He has gotten better every year. His growth is across multiple aspects in his game. And you don't see that with low BBIQ players. Perfect example of this is being basketball self aware enough to reduce the most efficient shot in his arsenal, the mid range 16-22 foot, 2 point jumper. The shot slowly disapeared from his game to the point in 9 playoff games, he didn't take one. That is pure proof his basketball IQ is not close to being low.

Then there was the complaints about his handle. Well, he has improved it immensely. He has a eurostep he uses on fast breaks and is making the right passes much more often on drives to the basket without losing the ball. His turnover percentage has dropped from 12.5% his first year to 10% last year. His handle might be better than Tatum's at this point.

Then there is the claim about being a faux intellectual. He is 22 years old and was voted in as an executive VP of the NBPA. You don't get that high up in the NBA Players Association by faking your intelligence or intellect. He has been named a Director Fellowship at an MIT Media Lab. The dude is for real extremely intelligent and works on that part of his person as hard as he does his body and NBA game.

A newer complaint seems to be coming about his attitude and work ethic. This is just more Jaylen Brown pessimism that holds little basis in reality. Brown stood up to a poor leader that was causing dissention on the team and told Kyrie to also look in the mirror if he wants to see what is wrong with the team. That isn't attitude. That is leadership. That is sticking up for his teammates. That is a positive response to a crap criticism from a divisive person that didn't even want to be here.

And from all reports, Brown works his ass off. Just because he also has other off season interests and, you know, a real life, people suddenly think he doesn't work hard or enough on his game. That is patently ridiculous. The kid comes back every September in the best shape on the team with better skills and at least one new move that really expands his offensive repertoire.

And, despite all the crap drama on this team last year, the coaches and management singled out Jaylen's excellent acceptance of a new, more reduced role and how he thrived in it.

I think Jaylen still has ridiculous upside and will once more show those who make up some of these inaccurate, and sometimes far fetched claims, just how wrong they are. I still think Brown ends up the better player between Tatum and Brown.

Yes, to all of this TP.

[bdm860]

It's summer, it's Friday, there's nothing else going on, so I'm going to nitpick.

Don't get anything below twisted though, I like Jaylen Brown, he just comes off like somebody who wants to be intellectual, rather than actually being intellectual.

He is 22 years old and was voted in as an executive VP of the NBPA. You don't get that high up in the NBA Players Association by faking your intelligence or intellect.

You get that high up simply by volunteering.  There's like 450 people in the NBPA, how many you think ran for that position?  My guess is less than 30, and but either way it's really more of a popularity contest.  You think there's an intelligent test to get in there?  There's zero correlation between being intelligent and being voted into a role.  Especially when there's likely only a very small pool of applicants to begin with.  What kind of annoys me with all this is how people laud his intellect, but I never see anybody laud the intellect of the other 8 guys on the NBPA, or any of the past NBPA members (including Carmelo Anthony, Patrick Ewing, LeBron James, our own Tommy Heinsohn, etc.).

He has been named a Director Fellowship at an MIT Media Lab.

 
This is an honorary, celebrity role.  Exactly the kind of thing you can get by being a celebrity and faking intellect.  Again, do you think there was some kind of admissions test Jaylen took?  Do you think he'd have that role if he wasn't a multi-million dollar Boston athlete?  It would be different if he got accepted to MIT as an undergrad or something.  It's like saying somebody's intelligent because they have an honorary doctorate.

It's like Kanye West, because he has a doctorate degree (honorary) and has spoken at Harvard and Oxford, that means he's intelligent right?  Successful yes.  Musical genius, sure. Kyrie-like intellect, probably. Real intellect, not from where I'm sitting.

Kyrie Irving (who I think we all agree on the pseudo-intellect part) is/was enrolled at Harvard. So he's really intelligent too?

Everything you just mentioned to prove his intelligence, none of it comes off as actually proving intelligence to me.  Same way it was when he came into the NBA, oh he likes chess, tried to teach himself guitar and Spanish, oh that makes him intelligent.  No it doesn't. It just shows you maybe have some unique interests compared to the regular young NBA star.  My worry is he's one of those people that thinks, "intelligent people like the opera, and I want to be intelligent, so I'll watch the opera." That's kind of how he's always come off to me.

Not saying this to bash Jaylen, I like him.  Happy he's on the C's.  It's more of me getting annoyed at the "oh, he's so intelligent" laurels.  Those interests don't make him intelligent, but they're definitely cool to have.

[jambr380]

I always appreciate the effort you put into your posts, bdm - you are certainly a well-respected member of this community - but I think you are getting rubbed the wrong way with this JB thing.

There are a lot of loser high IQ people out there. They take a test, tell everyone about their 150 IQ score, and act superior to those around them. I know several that don't even work - they think if they are going to do something, it had better be worth their time...because their time is so much more valuable than the 'average' person. It can be a nauseating experience being around them.

I don't know what Jaylen's IQ score is - and I don't really care. I can tell that he is incredibly motivated to live a well-rounded fulfilling life. People like Jaylen don't necessarily score the highest on tests, but they continually go outside of their comfort zone to better themselves. I don't know that Jaylen doesn't respect those around him, I believe he just needs a reason to. I believe Jaylen truly marches to his own drummer and has immense confidence in his ability to learn and lead. And this probably can come off as obnoxious to those around him, especially given his age.

You seem to insinuate that he does these things only to show other people how smart and interesting he is, I tend to think that while he may enjoy the praise, most of his motivation is intrinsically based. I do not think he is all fluff and no substance.

[nickagneta]

Unintelligent people do not take graduate courses at Cal when they are freshmen. Unintelligent people don't learn how to speak Spanish and Arabic just because.

Unintelligent people do not receive leadership positions in the NBPA at 22 years old. Look at the leadership. Chris Paul, Andre guodala, Pau Gasol, Lebron, and others. All older by 3-4 years, some by over a decade. And all well spoken, engaged and proactive people, like Brown. Those traits are because of intelligence.

Unintelligent people don't diversify their interests into chess, playing instruments, learning languages, learning the NBA CBA, going to financial investment seminars, throw welcoming parties to just drafted players to guide them through the 1st year of their professional life, and they aren't given Fellowships at MIT.

Sure you can look at each individual thing and say, well yeah sometimes unintelligent people do those things. But unintelligent  don't do all those things, all before reaching the age of 23. If Brown just did one or two of these things, sure, then maybe the word that he is very intelligent can be questioned. But when you take in the totality of what he is doing and has accomplished, you see only people of high intelligence do all those different things.

Brown is well spoken, always seeking to learn more, very well rounded, and extremely self aware. Those are not traits of unintelligent people. Heck, those are not the traits of just average people. When you look at the total picture of Brown, take into consideration all the praise he gets for being intelligent from people who know him best, it's difficult for me to see him as anything but a very intelligent, motivated, always looking to learn and improve individual.