The ridiculous pessimism regarding Jaylen Brown

[wiley]

If you're not one of the top 5-8 player in the league, be prepared to be savaged by certain members of Celticsstrong who only have kind words for the Superstars....

Jaylen is one of the two big beacons of hope for the Celtics, along with Tatum. 

Trade Jaylen for Sabonis...  yeesh...terrible terrible idea. 

[Vermont Green]

I would rather have Brown than Brogdan, just for example.  Other comparables are Middleton, Harris, guys like that.  These guys are all getting big money although on their second round of FA not their first for Middleton and Harris.  I think Brown could easily be better than all of these guys.

I remain very high on Jaylen Brown.

[playdream]

Work ethic, attitude, passion for the game

He just has too many question marks written all over him

[greg683x]

The only thing that concerns me with Brown, is the report in the Jackie McMullen article about that road trip in Miami where the Celtics had a back to back and Kyrie was upset that some of the young players wanted to go out bar hopping after a long late flight and a game the next day.  This right before Jaylens indirect comments towards Kyrie in the media

Follow that up with these random, sometimes immature, posts on Jaylens Instagram/Twitter lately that are being posted at 2 and 3am.

It makes me wonder how focused he is sometimes, or at the very least, lacks common sense on occasion.

I just read his Instagram and Twitter pages. I have no idea what you are talking about. They are classy, thoughtful and inspirational.

So perhaps I need to run back my comment

I could have sworn there’s been a few tweets talked about recently on here made by brown, all that came around 2-3 in the morning.  But it looks like I’m mistaken.

The only one that kinda falls into this category is the Instagram comment Jaylen made gawking at an Instagram model, where he immediately ripped a fan a new one for making of him.  Not the most mature response but not a big deal mistakes happen.

As for the going out bar hopping part, yeah there’s no proof that it was jaylen.  To be honest, that whole incident reeks of terry rozier, but this whole incident was right before jaylen and kyrie we’re taking jabs at each other, so it could have been jaylen sticking up for himself or just sticking up for the other guys.  Or it couldn’t have been related at all

[jpotter33]

I wouldnt offer a max contract to him..what u see is what u going to get from him

Jaylen is definitely getting a max offer sheet from someone. The problem is not that he doesn’t deserve it ... the problem is no one knows whether he deserves it or not

Is he?  Not many teams will have cap space next summer and I'm not sure he is better than someone like Brogdon who didn't get anywhere near a max contract in the much better market that was this summer.

I must have missed the part where Brogdon was in trade talks for Kawhi Leonard.

OP’s point is real. Just the other day I stumbled upon this gem
https://www.nbadraft.net/forum/2016-lottery-redraft

Anyone who puts Caris LeVert over Brown should get a CT of the head. Talk about the most overrated garbage time hero in the NBA. He wouldn’t make the standard rotation on last years Celtics team.

Bucks were in the trade discussion for Leonard, but they didn't want to give up Middleton who was needed as the main salary part of the trade similar to DeRozan or Smart.  Without Middleton a deal was never going to happen, but Brogdon absolutely would have been a treasured component of any trade and frankly might have killed the deal as the Bucks were unlikely going to want to give up both Middleton and Brogdon. 

I think Brogdon and Brown are very similar players. Brogdon has continued to take massive strides forward, but he is much older than Brown which puts them on a very similar level from a value standpoint.  They've both been in the league 3 years as well (Brogdon was a 2nd round pick which is why he was a free agent this summer as opposed to next summer).  The market this summer was filled with teams with a lot of cap space and yet Brogdon still couldn't get anywhere near a max contract.  If Brown has a similar year next year, I don't think he gets a max contract.  Probably something like a 4 year, 100 million dollar contract.  That is better than Brogdon (4 year, 85 million), but not a max.  Hopefully Brown takes a massive leap and earns himself a 5 year max from the C's.

Lol I guess were just going to gloss over the fact that Brogdon is dang near four full years older than Brown?! That’s a significant difference in age and likely part of the reason that Brogdon didn’t get more. Brown absolutely will get max offers from some team - likely Boston included - given his age, high ceiling, and next year’s weak free agent class.

Similar to the Siakam/Tatum comparison, people regularly overlook this fact when it is a crucial consideration when considering players.

[18isGREATERthan72]

I dunno about anybody else, but I've personally seen nothing but improvement from Jaylen each year so far.  You can point to windows where he underperformed for sure, but that can be said for most players under the age of 24.  I think Jaylen takes a big step forward this year... From the outside looking in, Jaylen is a gym rat and appears to put a ton of work in each off season.  Sure he also enjoys himself traveling and such, but I'll never hold that against someone.

[Moranis]

I wouldnt offer a max contract to him..what u see is what u going to get from him

Jaylen is definitely getting a max offer sheet from someone. The problem is not that he doesn’t deserve it ... the problem is no one knows whether he deserves it or not

Is he?  Not many teams will have cap space next summer and I'm not sure he is better than someone like Brogdon who didn't get anywhere near a max contract in the much better market that was this summer.

I must have missed the part where Brogdon was in trade talks for Kawhi Leonard.

OP’s point is real. Just the other day I stumbled upon this gem
https://www.nbadraft.net/forum/2016-lottery-redraft

Anyone who puts Caris LeVert over Brown should get a CT of the head. Talk about the most overrated garbage time hero in the NBA. He wouldn’t make the standard rotation on last years Celtics team.

Bucks were in the trade discussion for Leonard, but they didn't want to give up Middleton who was needed as the main salary part of the trade similar to DeRozan or Smart.  Without Middleton a deal was never going to happen, but Brogdon absolutely would have been a treasured component of any trade and frankly might have killed the deal as the Bucks were unlikely going to want to give up both Middleton and Brogdon. 

I think Brogdon and Brown are very similar players. Brogdon has continued to take massive strides forward, but he is much older than Brown which puts them on a very similar level from a value standpoint.  They've both been in the league 3 years as well (Brogdon was a 2nd round pick which is why he was a free agent this summer as opposed to next summer).  The market this summer was filled with teams with a lot of cap space and yet Brogdon still couldn't get anywhere near a max contract.  If Brown has a similar year next year, I don't think he gets a max contract.  Probably something like a 4 year, 100 million dollar contract.  That is better than Brogdon (4 year, 85 million), but not a max.  Hopefully Brown takes a massive leap and earns himself a 5 year max from the C's.

Lol I guess were just going to gloss over the fact that Brogdon is dang near four full years older than Brown?! That’s a significant difference in age and likely part of the reason that Brogdon didn’t get more. Brown absolutely will get max offers from some team - likely Boston included - given his age, high ceiling, and next year’s weak free agent class.

Similar to the Siakam/Tatum comparison, people regularly overlook this fact when it is a crucial consideration when considering players.

I mentioned the age, but Brogdon outperformed Brown last year.  Brogdon made significant improvements basically across the board from year 2 to year 3.  Brown did not (slightly improved some areas, but also saw several areas regress).  They were both in their 3rd year and experience is often far more important than actual age, especially when you see progression from one person and little to no progression from another.   

[footey]

I wouldnt offer a max contract to him..what u see is what u going to get from him

Jaylen is definitely getting a max offer sheet from someone. The problem is not that he doesn’t deserve it ... the problem is no one knows whether he deserves it or not

Is he?  Not many teams will have cap space next summer and I'm not sure he is better than someone like Brogdon who didn't get anywhere near a max contract in the much better market that was this summer.

I must have missed the part where Brogdon was in trade talks for Kawhi Leonard.

OP’s point is real. Just the other day I stumbled upon this gem
https://www.nbadraft.net/forum/2016-lottery-redraft

Anyone who puts Caris LeVert over Brown should get a CT of the head. Talk about the most overrated garbage time hero in the NBA. He wouldn’t make the standard rotation on last years Celtics team.

Bucks were in the trade discussion for Leonard, but they didn't want to give up Middleton who was needed as the main salary part of the trade similar to DeRozan or Smart.  Without Middleton a deal was never going to happen, but Brogdon absolutely would have been a treasured component of any trade and frankly might have killed the deal as the Bucks were unlikely going to want to give up both Middleton and Brogdon. 

I think Brogdon and Brown are very similar players. Brogdon has continued to take massive strides forward, but he is much older than Brown which puts them on a very similar level from a value standpoint.  They've both been in the league 3 years as well (Brogdon was a 2nd round pick which is why he was a free agent this summer as opposed to next summer).  The market this summer was filled with teams with a lot of cap space and yet Brogdon still couldn't get anywhere near a max contract.  If Brown has a similar year next year, I don't think he gets a max contract.  Probably something like a 4 year, 100 million dollar contract.  That is better than Brogdon (4 year, 85 million), but not a max.  Hopefully Brown takes a massive leap and earns himself a 5 year max from the C's.

Lol I guess were just going to gloss over the fact that Brogdon is dang near four full years older than Brown?! That’s a significant difference in age and likely part of the reason that Brogdon didn’t get more. Brown absolutely will get max offers from some team - likely Boston included - given his age, high ceiling, and next year’s weak free agent class.

Similar to the Siakam/Tatum comparison, people regularly overlook this fact when it is a crucial consideration when considering players.

Brogdon injury history in college and pros also diminishes his market value a bit. 

But not here to bash Brogdon, extremely efficient player. One of the things I like the most about him is how he finishes a lot of back door cuts; seems to be a lost art in today's 3 point shot NBA. He is  fundamentally very sound.

[bdm860]

Brown has a lot of Kyrie in him with the psedudo intellectual talks, vague social media quotes and the love of attention.

Can't question his work ethic or desire to get better. By all accounts he's a gym rat.

I think we'll learn about him this season.

There is nothing pseudo-intellectual about Jaylen Brown. The dude is true an intellectual as he continues to further his education and understanding of the world. Don't you remember this classic game of, "Who said it? Kyrie Irving or Jaden Smith." The two shouldn't really be compared in any way, shape, or form.

Personally, Brown has always come off as kind of pseudo-intellectual to me.  Here's an except from a Zack Lowe/Jackie MacMullan podcast back in December:

JM: “...a renaissance man, if you will. He’s probably not quite as much of that as he thinks he is- and I think sometimes that causes issues in their locker room. And I don’t think they dislike him Zach, but I think they’re like “what’s with this dude?”

ZL: On that last part, and I want to choose my words carefully here...there is some thought that he’s not that much of what he thinks he is. There’s some “there goes Jaylen again talking about whatever - yoga.” And there’s some smirking in the locker room”

And I wrote a longish post about it then if anybody cares to read it.  He has always come off as trying to be appear intelligent rather than actually being intelligent to me.

[Walker Wiggle]

From all accounts he works his butt off and has unlimited physical potential, besides perhaps his relatively small hands.

A lot of people casually bring up the first half of last year, when he struggled, without acknowledging that he was injured.

[wiley]

Brown has spurts where he is clearly the best player on the floor for the C's.  People are unhappy because he hasn't turned into Kawhi yet.  Well, wait a few years.   He may not reach that level (extremely few will), but he should be an awesome player for years to come. 

I don't want to see Hayward start over Brown.  Starting together, okay. 

[Mr October]

Last summer I had Tatum ranked as the better prospect over Brown. This summer it has flipped until Tatum proves he is better than his regression year.

Brown showed a lot of maturity by embracing his role and becoming very efficient on both ends by mid season. He is only 22 years old. He still is going to have a lot of maturity mistakes in him. But Brown has done something each summer to expand / improve his game. He is a plus player on both ends of the court. I would be sad if he left the Celtics.

I still have faith in Tatum. But he needs to drive to the hole and stop being a black hole on offense. I believe his defense has been improving though. I think Tatum will be less of a black hole when the team goes back to nice ball movement. He wont need to shoot just to get shots up.

I cant wait to see what these guys do next season! Go Celtics!

[Moranis]

Just for some fun, I found the thread early last season discussing Brown and comparing him to Jeff Green.  I've updated the numbers below to include year 3.  They are per 36.

Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)

Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)

Year 3
18.1 p, 5.9 r, 1.9 a, 1.3 s, 0.6 b, 1.9 t, 3.5 f - 52.9 2PT, 34.4 3PT, 65.8 FT (54.7 TS)
14.7 p, 5.8 r, 1.6 a, 1.2 s, 0.9 b, 1.6 t, 2.6 f - 50.3 2PT, 33.3 3PT, 74.0 FT (53.0 TS)

Brown's reduced role helped with his per 36 totals and he has started to separate a bit more from Green overall, but also looking at the numbers you can see a general lack of real growth from Brown from year 2 to year 3 which is concerning as many players take a pretty decent jump from year 2 to year 3.  That said, not all do and get their big jump from year 3 to year 4.  So hopefully Brown takes that latter path and reaches that next level.   

[jpotter33]

I wouldnt offer a max contract to him..what u see is what u going to get from him

Jaylen is definitely getting a max offer sheet from someone. The problem is not that he doesn’t deserve it ... the problem is no one knows whether he deserves it or not

Is he?  Not many teams will have cap space next summer and I'm not sure he is better than someone like Brogdon who didn't get anywhere near a max contract in the much better market that was this summer.

I must have missed the part where Brogdon was in trade talks for Kawhi Leonard.

OP’s point is real. Just the other day I stumbled upon this gem
https://www.nbadraft.net/forum/2016-lottery-redraft

Anyone who puts Caris LeVert over Brown should get a CT of the head. Talk about the most overrated garbage time hero in the NBA. He wouldn’t make the standard rotation on last years Celtics team.

Bucks were in the trade discussion for Leonard, but they didn't want to give up Middleton who was needed as the main salary part of the trade similar to DeRozan or Smart.  Without Middleton a deal was never going to happen, but Brogdon absolutely would have been a treasured component of any trade and frankly might have killed the deal as the Bucks were unlikely going to want to give up both Middleton and Brogdon. 

I think Brogdon and Brown are very similar players. Brogdon has continued to take massive strides forward, but he is much older than Brown which puts them on a very similar level from a value standpoint.  They've both been in the league 3 years as well (Brogdon was a 2nd round pick which is why he was a free agent this summer as opposed to next summer).  The market this summer was filled with teams with a lot of cap space and yet Brogdon still couldn't get anywhere near a max contract.  If Brown has a similar year next year, I don't think he gets a max contract.  Probably something like a 4 year, 100 million dollar contract.  That is better than Brogdon (4 year, 85 million), but not a max.  Hopefully Brown takes a massive leap and earns himself a 5 year max from the C's.

Lol I guess were just going to gloss over the fact that Brogdon is dang near four full years older than Brown?! That’s a significant difference in age and likely part of the reason that Brogdon didn’t get more. Brown absolutely will get max offers from some team - likely Boston included - given his age, high ceiling, and next year’s weak free agent class.

Similar to the Siakam/Tatum comparison, people regularly overlook this fact when it is a crucial consideration when considering players.

I mentioned the age, but Brogdon outperformed Brown last year.  Brogdon made significant improvements basically across the board from year 2 to year 3.  Brown did not (slightly improved some areas, but also saw several areas regress).  They were both in their 3rd year and experience is often far more important than actual age, especially when you see progression from one person and little to no progression from another.

Brogdon also had a stable role last year, where Brown had a completely different role than the year before. Brown proved to be at least as good if not better by the middle of the year once he adjusted to his new role.

Given the vastly different ages and contexts, just don't think this is a good comparison. Unless Brown comes out and vastly underperforms or gets injured this year, I think he's set for a max contract.

[jpotter33]

Just for some fun, I found the thread early last season discussing Brown and comparing him to Jeff Green.  I've updated the numbers below to include year 3.  They are per 36.

Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)

Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)

Year 3
18.1 p, 5.9 r, 1.9 a, 1.3 s, 0.6 b, 1.9 t, 3.5 f - 52.9 2PT, 34.4 3PT, 65.8 FT (54.7 TS)
14.7 p, 5.8 r, 1.6 a, 1.2 s, 0.9 b, 1.6 t, 2.6 f - 50.3 2PT, 33.3 3PT, 74.0 FT (53.0 TS)

Brown's reduced role helped with his per 36 totals and he has started to separate a bit more from Green overall, but also looking at the numbers you can see a general lack of real growth from Brown from year 2 to year 3 which is concerning as many players take a pretty decent jump from year 2 to year 3.  That said, not all do and get their big jump from year 3 to year 4.  So hopefully Brown takes that latter path and reaches that next level.

Again, you can't take these kinds of comparisons without context. Brown was thrown into a completely different role this past year, which had him underperforming in the first part of the year. However, by the middle of the season or so he found his rhythm and was much, much better. So of course his numbers from year 2 to year 3 were not great, as his role was completely different.