Words from Jaylen's Off-Season Trainer

[BDeCosta26]

Thanks for the explanation, Lar.  Your tenacity and obstinacy are just starting to make my head spin now.  It was fun for a while, but I'm not sure I can take any more.

I think we've come to a point where what you are arguing isn't really "wrong," per se, it's just more or less completely irrelevant.

So, fine; yes, you're right, Jaylen Brown could end up being a bust like Anthony Bennett.  Well done.

Agreed. It is an attempt to derail more reasonable comparisons by talking the loudest and longest on an irrelevant point.

Cheers to whoever made me the devil of tommy points. Weird to see that.

If it seems like it's Me vs Huey, Dewey and Louie - with minimal people logging into show support for my accurate statement, it's because the people who would be posting here in defense of my accurate comp are all on depression-related hiatus after being disgusted with the Jaylen Brown selection.   A large chunk of Celtic fans are taking the Summer off after what they perceived as a gut-punch of an NBA draft - hence the angry tirades on this forum immediately following the pick and the chorus of boos the pick received from Boston fans.   



Luckily, my Celtic fandom is unwavering so I can speak on behalf of the masses of Celtic fans we can only presume are currently at the bottom of a bottle trying to numb their draft-related pain.   In that sense, you might want to refer to me as LoraxBrd33 until they return.



Truth be told, I sympathize with their reaction (I was admittedly pretty disgrunted about trading for Ray Allen back in 2007 until the other shoe dropped - so I know how it feels), though I don't particularly agree with them.  Unlike them, I've been on board with the selection since draft night.  I trust Ainge.  I trust Brad.  I trust our ability to develop this Bennett-esque pure athlete with minimal NBA skill.  Hopefully after the season starts up, Jaylen shows some quick progress and we can all celebrate in unison together.  I look forward to seeing those members return to the forum so we can have some alternate viewpoints.

Ugh comeon.. You might have some valid points, but posting Bill Simmons and draft day fans doesnt prove your point, it actually makes them weaker. Remember Simmons liked the Young pick and these fans are the same kind as those who didnt like the Porzingis selection for the Knicks.

To be clear, I only point out the draft-day reaction to explain why few were coming to my defense in this thread.  The large chunk of Celtic fans unhappy with the Jaylen selection are too depressed to visit this forum.  They'll come back after the season starts progressing and the pain dissipates.  Until then, It's mostly koolaid drinkers here... so when I make a wholely accurate statement that Jaylen is a comparable-level prospect to Anthony Bennett 3 years ago, were both "swing for the fences" picks made without any better options available, and both had significant bust potential... you're only seeing a bunch of koolaid drinkers freaking out about the comment instead of the other half of Celtic fans nodding their head in agreement (the folks in that image, for example).   Nonetheless, a few in this thread have admitted I'm right.  But as Celtics18 keenly points out, it's irrelevant.  I agree.  It's not a very interesting discussion.  Who cares if Bennett and Jaylen are even at stage 1 - Brown has a far better opportunity to improve thanks to this excellent system he's lucked into. 

I'm not even really sure why this became a big deal.  Boredom, mostly.  Nobody has anything better to talk about right now.

There's some big differences between Brown and Bennett LB.

Namely, Bennett never had an obviously translatable, elite level skill he could rely on at the next level. He was pretty good at a few things in college, solid athlete, but nothing that could be his "bread and butter" at the next level.

Jaylen has that with his elite level first step, ability to draw contact, and his high level defensive acumen. Those things will keep him on the court, where Bennett didn't have a skill good enough to keep himself on the court. Jaylen is building from a foundation where Bennett was building from a blank slab. VERY different situations

To compare the two so closely is just a way to incite reaction.

[footey]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Yes this is the proverbial moving the goalposts by lb. nice to see so few falling for it. Tps around. Let's drink the good stuff tonight fellas.
Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

And while he's at it I'd like to see him respond to a Paul George comparison too.

Chad Ford-
George is the upside pick of the draft and a bit of a risk for the Pacers. He has all the physical tools to be a Tracy McGrady-like player in the pros, but he hasn't produced anything like T-Mac. In two years at Fresno State he never really dominated. The Pacers are swinging for the fences with this one. If he develops, it's a great pick for Indiana. But he also has the potential to be a Brandon Rush-type of disappointment too.

Nice.  Was he tier three, as well?

Once again, another terrible example.  Paul George was drafted behind 9 other players included Wesley johnson, Ekpe Udoh and Al-Faroug Aminu (all of which wasn't Chad Ford's fault).  We're talking about players who were considered a "reach" at the top of a weak draft class.   Bennett went #1 despite being raw, because of his "potential".   Brown went 3rd (in a two player draft) despite being raw, because of his "potential".   That's a perfect comparison.

Another decent example would be Nik Stauskas.  He was a Tier 3 prospect who was taken at the top of his crop (considered by many a reach) based on perceived potential.  But at least in Stauskas' case he was believed to have NBA-ready shooting.  It's not a perfect comp, because unlike Bennett/Brown, Stauskas wasn't a raw prospect being drafted primarily for his perceived potential... he was selected, because they thought he could make an impact shooting immediately.   Bennett remains the best comp.

Before it was all about the tiers?  Now it's all about where the player was drafted?

So, in your game Jaylen Brown can only be compared to other players who were in Chard Ford's third tier yet were drafted higher than most mock drafts had them ranked?

In my game we are allowed to compare him to other players who play the same position, were considered good, raw athletic talents out of college, but were risks due to needing considerable refinements to their game,  like Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.  T-Mac back in the day, springs to mind as well.  I don't know if Chad Ford was doing his tiers back then, though.

Exactly. Classic LB.

First of all, I spent half a month trying to explain to Clay that Marcus Smart was seen as a greater level prospect than Jaylen Brown when he first entered the draft.   Two years of disappointing play doesn't change the fact that expectations were higher than Smart.  A frequent rebuttal I saw was that Jaylen was drafted #3 and Smart was drafted #6... a ridiculous argument considering each draft is different and 2014 was seen as having a much greater crop of top-tier prospects towards the top.   So on that note, I'm merely saying that SOME would argue Bennett is a greater prospect based on the fact he went #1 to Jaylen's #3.  Clearly, my stance on that has been pretty well-documented.   I don't care where either was drafted.   Consult "The Tiers™" and you'll see that Anthony Bennett, Jaylen Brown, Nik Stauskas were all considered comparable prospects at their time of entering the draft, and who would go 1st over them would depend on which team was on the clock.   I stand by my statement that Anthony Bennett (#1 in a garbage draft) and Jaylen Brown (#3 in a garbage draft that also had two potential stars above the rest) were comparable prospects and were taken higher than expected for similar reasons.   I stand by my belief Jaylen could flourish where Bennett failed primarily because of motivation, mentality, and the environment he's being drafted into.   I remain confident in Jaylen's ability to surpass expectations and become a great player some day.   I agree with folks like GoCanada who have said that optimism for Jaylen's career wouldn't be the same if he was being drafted by a team like the Kings at #8 as widely expected.

Sorry buddy you didn't fool anyone on this one. Leonard was a tier 3 is that is what we are using and is way more similar to brown in every way. Let it go.

Sorry but Leonard went 15th and is irrelevant to this discussion.   You can't just cheery pick any rando picked mid-to-late 1st as your comp for Jaylen.  We're talking about equal-level prospects with similar expectations.  If Jaylen was picked in the middle of the 1st, we'd have a comparison here.  if Leonard had gone at the top of his draft, we'd have a comparison here.   If we're talking about comparable level prospects who were reached for way higher than expected, Bennett = Brown.  I suggest you step outside this bubble, and visit a forum not blinded by Celtic green.   Expections for Jaylen are minimal.  The reaction to his selection was comparable to the reaction the Bennett selection got.  In both instances, the reaction was more or less, "Wow, that's higher than I would have taken him, there were better players available, but I get that the Cavs/Celts are gambling on his perceived potential so maybe it will work out."   How you feel about Bennett today is irrelevant to how you felt about him in 2013.   I'm sorry if you guys have tunnel vision or poor memories.  Let me remind you that Anthony Bennett went #1 in a draft... the Cavs clearly were high on him... they didn't just take him as a gag.   Clearly, Boston has higher expectations for Brown than others did.  It's an identical situation.  That doesn't mean it will work out in an identical way.  They both had sky high boom/bust potential.  Bennett so far looks like a bust.  I hope Jaylen booms.   I suggest you Let it go.

Bennett and Brown are similar in that they are both + athletes who were picked high in their respective drafts largely due to a lack of truly elite talent.

Brown and Leonard have way more in common. Leonard is a way better comp.

The Bennett comp is a cautionary tale, only slightly more relevant than any other bust in the last 20-25 years of basketball. You only brought it up because you knew people would see the Bennett-Brown comp and freak out. Lets move on now.

I agree with statement #1 - they are similar in that they are both + athletes picked high mainly because those drafts didn't have obvious options available.   That's my whole point here... im glad someone gets it.  Bennett was a blank slate.  Brown is a blank slate.   They fit firmly in the "Superior Athlete who Isn't NBA Ready, but if he ever figures it out - look out" category. 

#2 - I'd agree with the Leonard/Brown comp if Brown had gone 15th.   Leonard and Gerald Green compare well for that reason.   Wing players who were very raw, but were taken in the middle of the draft due to "flashes" of talent, but expectations were inherently low as 14+ other teams passed on them.   Leonard went 15th.  Green went 18th.  If we're comparing two guys as they entered the draft, that's a fair comp.   If Jaylen too had slipped a couple spots and went in the 15-18 range, It would be fair to compare him to Green and Leonard.  But that isn't what we're talking about here.

#3 - I fully agree with you that Bennett is a cautionary tale.  To be clear, I'm far from the first person to compare Bennett and Brown.  That thread on nbadraft.net made that comparison months ago in describing how much of a reach Brown was at #3.  I'm certainly not denying that Bennett is a cautionary tale - in fact it's crucial to my overall point.  Had Bennett ended up in a better situation, perhaps he would have lived up to his perceived potential.   Had Brown been selected 8th by the Kings, I don't think anyone here would be starting threads praising his star potential, because we assume the Kings would botch his potential similarly to how the Cavs botched Bennett's.   Because Brown is (barring a trade) going to be playing for the Celtics this year, we are right to have high expectations for his development.   I've discussed this in detail in other threads...  he has a chance to surpass expectations and prove the masses wrong primarily because he's ending up in what we expect is an ideal developmental situation. 

TP for getting that this isn't a black or white discussion.  There's some grey here that's a little too subtle for some of the folks here. 

ANd for the record, I brought up the accurate Bennett/Brown comp, because someone claimed they didn't trust when trainers praise players.   Bennett's trainers have praised him two summers in a row.  The real irony of this is that if you re-read the original post in this thread, Jaylen's trainer isn't even praising him - just saying he needs work.

LOL, weren't you the guy who wanted us to make a trade to get Bennett after he already was a bust?  Now you are using him as a cautionary tale?  You're credibility left the station two years ago, LB.

[Ilikesports17]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Yes this is the proverbial moving the goalposts by lb. nice to see so few falling for it. Tps around. Let's drink the good stuff tonight fellas.
Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

And while he's at it I'd like to see him respond to a Paul George comparison too.

Chad Ford-
George is the upside pick of the draft and a bit of a risk for the Pacers. He has all the physical tools to be a Tracy McGrady-like player in the pros, but he hasn't produced anything like T-Mac. In two years at Fresno State he never really dominated. The Pacers are swinging for the fences with this one. If he develops, it's a great pick for Indiana. But he also has the potential to be a Brandon Rush-type of disappointment too.

Nice.  Was he tier three, as well?

Once again, another terrible example.  Paul George was drafted behind 9 other players included Wesley johnson, Ekpe Udoh and Al-Faroug Aminu (all of which wasn't Chad Ford's fault).  We're talking about players who were considered a "reach" at the top of a weak draft class.   Bennett went #1 despite being raw, because of his "potential".   Brown went 3rd (in a two player draft) despite being raw, because of his "potential".   That's a perfect comparison.

Another decent example would be Nik Stauskas.  He was a Tier 3 prospect who was taken at the top of his crop (considered by many a reach) based on perceived potential.  But at least in Stauskas' case he was believed to have NBA-ready shooting.  It's not a perfect comp, because unlike Bennett/Brown, Stauskas wasn't a raw prospect being drafted primarily for his perceived potential... he was selected, because they thought he could make an impact shooting immediately.   Bennett remains the best comp.

Before it was all about the tiers?  Now it's all about where the player was drafted?

So, in your game Jaylen Brown can only be compared to other players who were in Chard Ford's third tier yet were drafted higher than most mock drafts had them ranked?

In my game we are allowed to compare him to other players who play the same position, were considered good, raw athletic talents out of college, but were risks due to needing considerable refinements to their game,  like Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.  T-Mac back in the day, springs to mind as well.  I don't know if Chad Ford was doing his tiers back then, though.

Exactly. Classic LB.

First of all, I spent half a month trying to explain to Clay that Marcus Smart was seen as a greater level prospect than Jaylen Brown when he first entered the draft.   Two years of disappointing play doesn't change the fact that expectations were higher than Smart.  A frequent rebuttal I saw was that Jaylen was drafted #3 and Smart was drafted #6... a ridiculous argument considering each draft is different and 2014 was seen as having a much greater crop of top-tier prospects towards the top.   So on that note, I'm merely saying that SOME would argue Bennett is a greater prospect based on the fact he went #1 to Jaylen's #3.  Clearly, my stance on that has been pretty well-documented.   I don't care where either was drafted.   Consult "The Tiers™" and you'll see that Anthony Bennett, Jaylen Brown, Nik Stauskas were all considered comparable prospects at their time of entering the draft, and who would go 1st over them would depend on which team was on the clock.   I stand by my statement that Anthony Bennett (#1 in a garbage draft) and Jaylen Brown (#3 in a garbage draft that also had two potential stars above the rest) were comparable prospects and were taken higher than expected for similar reasons.   I stand by my belief Jaylen could flourish where Bennett failed primarily because of motivation, mentality, and the environment he's being drafted into.   I remain confident in Jaylen's ability to surpass expectations and become a great player some day.   I agree with folks like GoCanada who have said that optimism for Jaylen's career wouldn't be the same if he was being drafted by a team like the Kings at #8 as widely expected.

Sorry buddy you didn't fool anyone on this one. Leonard was a tier 3 is that is what we are using and is way more similar to brown in every way. Let it go.

Sorry but Leonard went 15th and is irrelevant to this discussion.   You can't just cheery pick any rando picked mid-to-late 1st as your comp for Jaylen.  We're talking about equal-level prospects with similar expectations.  If Jaylen was picked in the middle of the 1st, we'd have a comparison here.  if Leonard had gone at the top of his draft, we'd have a comparison here.   If we're talking about comparable level prospects who were reached for way higher than expected, Bennett = Brown.  I suggest you step outside this bubble, and visit a forum not blinded by Celtic green.   Expections for Jaylen are minimal.  The reaction to his selection was comparable to the reaction the Bennett selection got.  In both instances, the reaction was more or less, "Wow, that's higher than I would have taken him, there were better players available, but I get that the Cavs/Celts are gambling on his perceived potential so maybe it will work out."   How you feel about Bennett today is irrelevant to how you felt about him in 2013.   I'm sorry if you guys have tunnel vision or poor memories.  Let me remind you that Anthony Bennett went #1 in a draft... the Cavs clearly were high on him... they didn't just take him as a gag.   Clearly, Boston has higher expectations for Brown than others did.  It's an identical situation.  That doesn't mean it will work out in an identical way.  They both had sky high boom/bust potential.  Bennett so far looks like a bust.  I hope Jaylen booms.   I suggest you Let it go.

Bennett and Brown are similar in that they are both + athletes who were picked high in their respective drafts largely due to a lack of truly elite talent.

Brown and Leonard have way more in common. Leonard is a way better comp.

The Bennett comp is a cautionary tale, only slightly more relevant than any other bust in the last 20-25 years of basketball. You only brought it up because you knew people would see the Bennett-Brown comp and freak out. Lets move on now.

I agree with statement #1 - they are similar in that they are both + athletes picked high mainly because those drafts didn't have obvious options available.   That's my whole point here... im glad someone gets it.  Bennett was a blank slate.  Brown is a blank slate.   They fit firmly in the "Superior Athlete who Isn't NBA Ready, but if he ever figures it out - look out" category. 

#2 - I'd agree with the Leonard/Brown comp if Brown had gone 15th.   Leonard and Gerald Green compare well for that reason.   Wing players who were very raw, but were taken in the middle of the draft due to "flashes" of talent, but expectations were inherently low as 14+ other teams passed on them.   Leonard went 15th.  Green went 18th.  If we're comparing two guys as they entered the draft, that's a fair comp.   If Jaylen too had slipped a couple spots and went in the 15-18 range, It would be fair to compare him to Green and Leonard.  But that isn't what we're talking about here.

#3 - I fully agree with you that Bennett is a cautionary tale.  To be clear, I'm far from the first person to compare Bennett and Brown.  That thread on nbadraft.net made that comparison months ago in describing how much of a reach Brown was at #3.  I'm certainly not denying that Bennett is a cautionary tale - in fact it's crucial to my overall point.  Had Bennett ended up in a better situation, perhaps he would have lived up to his perceived potential.   Had Brown been selected 8th by the Kings, I don't think anyone here would be starting threads praising his star potential, because we assume the Kings would botch his potential similarly to how the Cavs botched Bennett's.   Because Brown is (barring a trade) going to be playing for the Celtics this year, we are right to have high expectations for his development.   I've discussed this in detail in other threads...  he has a chance to surpass expectations and prove the masses wrong primarily because he's ending up in what we expect is an ideal developmental situation. 

TP for getting that this isn't a black or white discussion.  There's some grey here that's a little too subtle for some of the folks here. 

ANd for the record, I brought up the accurate Bennett/Brown comp, because someone claimed they didn't trust when trainers praise players.   Bennett's trainers have praised him two summers in a row.  The real irony of this is that if you re-read the original post in this thread, Jaylen's trainer isn't even praising him - just saying he needs work.

LOL, weren't you the guy who wanted us to make a trade to get Bennett after he already was a bust?  Now you are using him as a cautionary tale?  You're credibility left the station two years ago, LB.

I'm not sure if you think you just made a good point by you didn't.

[LarBrd33]

I floated the idea of buying dirt low on Bennett last summer.  I wasn't really pushing for it just was curious if anyone thought it was a good idea.  It would have been interesting to see what the Celtics could do with him.   It will be interesting to see what the nets do with him this year.  When it comes to these super raw prospects like Jaylen and Bennett, you have to be really confident in your ability to develop the player.  There was another thread a couple weeks ago comparing Jaylen to Darius miles.  Another decent comp because miles was another really raw athlete who presumably could have developed into more.  Like Bennett, Miles went to a disaster of a team that botched his development.  Hopefully Boston develops jaylen well.   He looks like he will need a few years.