Ray says he wouldn't mind coming off bench

[Jon]

Some guy who knew a bit about basketball once figured out that the 6th man role was a smart tactic to maximize your chances of winning - hold off one of your best players then bring him in when the other team is starting to get gassed or is playing less talented bench players. Have him light it up against them and help push the leads your starters created...

Red something? Smoked a lot of cigars...

Ray is the better player, which is maybe the reason he should come off the bench.

But keep in mind the success that Doc has had with taking KG out at the 5 minute mark and then bringing him back at the end of the first quarter when the opposition is bringing in the bench.  This is accomplishes the same thing a 6th man does.  

I think a nice compromise would be to do the same with Ray.  As I said above, taking him and KG out at the 7 minute mark and the bring them back at the 2 minute mark.  We then get two stars coming back in to get us over the late first quarter, early second quarter drought that often occurs.  

  The problem with that IMO is you are starting out games and quarters with too many old legs on the court at the same time and therefore not maximizing your best player(Rondo).  What has been working lately IMO is we have a better blending of experienced veterans and young athletic legs then we have had at any other point this season.

  Doc has been doing that with KG all season.  It only really started working once he  was forced to move KG to the 5 and starting Bass at the 4(making us more athletic at both spots).

But that's not really true.  We're not starting out games and quarters like that, we're starting out games with what I proposed.  After that, anything goes.  

And if you follow the progression I have above, it actually only has the old legs together on the court for really the first 5 minutes of the game.  After that, it's intermixed.  

[cman88]

I like the idea of Ray on the bench, because you start out the game in a more defensive mode getting stops and getting the score up.

when KG leaves the game at the 5minute mark, you lose his offense...now if you bring in a fresh Ray allen at that time it could keep the offense rolling.

the problem is, you Have to keep Rondo out there because Ray relies alot on his passing to score

[CelticsFanNC]

Some guy who knew a bit about basketball once figured out that the 6th man role was a smart tactic to maximize your chances of winning - hold off one of your best players then bring him in when the other team is starting to get gassed or is playing less talented bench players. Have him light it up against them and help push the leads your starters created...

Red something? Smoked a lot of cigars...

Ray is the better player, which is maybe the reason he should come off the bench.

But keep in mind the success that Doc has had with taking KG out at the 5 minute mark and then bringing him back at the end of the first quarter when the opposition is bringing in the bench.  This is accomplishes the same thing a 6th man does.  

I think a nice compromise would be to do the same with Ray.  As I said above, taking him and KG out at the 7 minute mark and the bring them back at the 2 minute mark.  We then get two stars coming back in to get us over the late first quarter, early second quarter drought that often occurs.  

  The problem with that IMO is you are starting out games and quarters with too many old legs on the court at the same time and therefore not maximizing your best player(Rondo).  What has been working lately IMO is we have a better blending of experienced veterans and young athletic legs then we have had at any other point this season.

  Doc has been doing that with KG all season.  It only really started working once he  was forced to move KG to the 5 and starting Bass at the 4(making us more athletic at both spots).

But that's not really true.  We're not starting out games and quarters like that, we're starting out games with what I proposed.  After that, anything goes.  

And if you follow the progression I have above, it actually only has the old legs together on the court for really the first 5 minutes of the game.  After that, it's intermixed.  

  We'd be starting out the game and the 3rd quarter that way.  Besides the last five minutes those are the 10 most important minutes of every game.

  I think you should to start with your best defensive team(Bradley) and the team with the best opportunity to get into the open court which gets your best player(Rondo)going right away in both halves.

  It's nothing against Ray.  I love Ray and have all the respect in the world for him.  He's a better offensive player then Bradley.  Bradley is a whole lot better defender.  With Ray we waste the first 10+ seconds of the shot clock waiting to see if he can clear himself for a shot.  We don't run plays for Bradley which means more touches for PP and KG.

  This season we're 10-1 in games where Ray doesn't play and 20-21 with Ray in the line up.  As much as we all love and respect Ray Allen that is looking less like a fluke and more like a trend.

[Tai]

FWIW, I feel like guys need to be careful in getting too caught up in that play where Ray runs around trying to get open. It's just a way to get the offense started, cause usually, Ray gets doubled and from there finds the open guy, and then it's hot potato as the open guy is suddenly under the net for an easy lay-up or dunk.

I saw the Heat do it a bit this game, actually, and I don't think it's as uncommon as people are trying to make it out to be. I know it's not the only reason people want Bradley starting over Ray, but it's something to consider. No matter how you spin it, it doesn't have the same effect with Bradley cause of course he's not the same shooter.

And at the end of the day, I think people are overstating Ray's age a bit, and with that understating his defense.  I've seen people make these topics where KG or Pierce should come off the bench too, so I know this theme's not new for CB at-large.  It's easy to do all this when people want a young guy to establish himself in the lineup, but it's really not due diligence for Ray.

[cman88]

Ray actually has been really solid defensively this year...not sure what the current stat is, but a month ago he was holding opposing SG's to 33% shooting

[xmuscularghandix]

Ray actually has been really solid defensively this year...not sure what the current stat is, but a month ago he was holding opposing SG's to 33% shooting

A lot of that is the team defense, but he does do a pretty good job. Ray's real problem is actually on offense, guy doesn't make the best decisions with the ball (outside of when he decides to let it fly).

Ray could seriously be a valuable asset coming off the bench. Kudos to Jesus for coming out and saying this.

2nd quarter lineup tonight was:

 Bradley, Dooling, Pavlovic, KG, Stiemsma

You replace any of those first three guys with Ray Allen... those 2nd quarter offensive droughts will disappear a bit.

I'm serious about this though... Avery Bradley NEEDS to stay in the starting lineup. Him and Rondo are a nightmare defensively and the offense can run more effective sets with Avery's ability to cut and finish around the basket.

[Tai]

Ray actually has been really solid defensively this year...not sure what the current stat is, but a month ago he was holding opposing SG's to 33% shooting

A lot of that is the team defense, but he does do a pretty good job. Ray's real problem is actually on offense, guy doesn't make the best decisions with the ball (outside of when he decides to let it fly).

And how does all this change if Ray's off the bench? He is who he is, Pierce is just as prone to these mistakes offensively.

Doc's definitely not bringing Ray off the bench based off that.

[Galeto]

FWIW, I feel like guys need to be careful in getting too caught up in that play where Ray runs around trying to get open. It's just a way to get the offense started, cause usually, Ray gets doubled and from there finds the open guy, and then it's hot potato as the open guy is suddenly under the net for an easy lay-up or dunk.

Oh come on.  It happens time after time.  When Ray finally catches the ball on the wing, beyond the three point line, there is usually 8 seconds left on the shot clock.  It's uncanny how it's almost always 8 seconds.  At that point, Ray's basically in an iso-situation, which means the Celtics are screwed. 

If it was to get the offense started, it wouldn't chew up so much time before it eventually ends up in Ray's hands.

I could see Ray running around being a disguise if it ends up in someone else getting free for an open shot but that rarely if ever happens. 

When big guys lose their athleticism and leaping ability, teams stop throwing alley-oops for them. For instance, our own KG. Another instance, Shaq of last year. Unless they're WIDE-OPEN, the alley-oop is put away.  Now Ray's loss of speed isn't as visible as the loss of lift but it's tangible and real yet the same sets are run for him.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way. Ray is versatile enough to get involved in other ways on offense, like pulling up off the dribble off screens or shooting threes in transition or posting up from time to time or simply spot up shooting.  Just put the endless running away because it doesn't help Ray and it doesn't help the Celtics.

[j804]

I like the idea of Ray on the bench, because you start out the game in a more defensive mode getting stops and getting the score up.

when KG leaves the game at the 5minute mark, you lose his offense...now if you bring in a fresh Ray allen at that time it could keep the offense rolling.

the problem is, you Have to keep Rondo out there because Ray relies alot on his passing to score

Not the way we been sharing the ball and setting screens Ray can still get his with the second unit, plus he will still share time with Rondo on the floor.

[Galeto]

I don't buy the argument that Ray is so independent on Rondo to score.  When Rondo was out, Ray did just fine.  And it wasn't just scoring either, he was dishing out about five assists a game.  Without Rondo out there, he just ran around screens less and it benefited him.  

I'm not really sure that Rondo helps Ray all that much.  Do people think that Rondo drives and kicks like crazy?  Well, in a sense he does but that's mostly for long-2s to KG and Bass.  Think of Pierce setting a screen for Rondo who drives and kicks it to Bass or KG on the baseline.  They run that a lot and Ray never gets a shot there. Another of Rondo's favorite sets in the pick and pop with the bigs.  Ray's not involved there either.

It's freaking Ray Allen.  Defenders don't drift off him unless they're undisciplined.  Ray is used as a decoy a lot of the time.  Sometimes he goes eons without getting a shot.

Ray would be better with someone like Chris Paul, not because Paul is necessarily a better playmaker than Rondo because he's not but because Paul creates a ton of three point shots for his teammates.  He emphasizes that. Rondo creating so many long-2s leaves Ray idle a lot.  

[Capricious]

Ray would be better with someone like Chris Paul, not because Paul is necessarily a better playmaker than Rondo because he's not but because Paul creates a ton of three point shots for his teammates.  He emphasizes that. Rondo creating so many long-2s leaves Ray idle a lot.  

Paul averages 2.4 3pt assists per game compared to Rondo's 2.2.  That's not that big of a difference. Rondo averages 3.5ast/gm on long-twos compared to Paul's 1.9.  This can be attributed to Garnett/Bass (and others) love of the long two.

And, in case you were wondering, its 4.1 to 3.4 at the rim in favor of Rondo.

I like AB starting and having Ray come in after 5/7min to finish the quarter out with Rondo.  Ray should play near 30 minutes a game, but he should start the 1st and 3rd on the bench.