Ray says he wouldn't mind coming off bench

[esel1000]

people always tend to look at the bench as a punishment of sorts... if anything its the contrary, just look at what the sixers have done. a strong bench is a necessity.

Truth is, Bradley cant find a rhythm coming off the bench, especially when hes playing point. Truth is Rondo sets him up nicely and utilizes Bradley's skills to the max. The bench isnt finding him on a cut like Rondo is. He thrives with Rondo its the perfect match, its why hes putting up his best numbers: first time all season hes played with him.

I think Ray would still be a scoring threat off the bench and a legitimately perfect 6 man, coming in and knocking down threes. A rich man's Mo Williams. If the bench can find him open looks, Ray would easily score 10-15 off the bench a night and jump-start it.

[colincb]

Per Basketball-reference.com

Allen's Offensive and defensive ratings this year are are 111 and 102.  Bradley's are 97 and 103.

Bradley's improving, but Ray's the better player. Lots of Bradleyinsanity here. Bradley is an undersized 2 who has no PG distribution skills.  He hasn't gotten much defensive attention yet given his early offensive struggles. He's not going to continue to get easy baskets cutting to the hoop once teams wise up to the fact that he's got a shot now. Sort of like people not forcing Lin to go left for the first few weeks when he started.

- I'm not sure why anyone would think Ray going to the bench for more offense isn't the best reason to make the switch.  I don't have a problem with that, but I don't want Bradley on the floor during crunch time.

-  I don't get the sentiment to trade Ray before the deadline for a bag of peanuts.  There was some poster on these talking about trading Allen for a second rounder at one point.  Why anyone thinks this is a good idea is beyond me. Too many people playing fantasy BBall on this forum.  Rebuilding is a pain in the ass and slow.

- Actually, Ray (and every one) else benefits from Rondo being on the floor. The Big 3 shoot about 2% better than before they played with him.  So when the haters say the Big 3 make him better, you can say Rondo makes the Big 3 better.

[Eja117]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.


Good for Ray though. At least he's saying all the right things. Very professional.

Finally, I wonder why Rondo gets so mad at "things" sometimes?

Ray played fine without Rondo this year. Doc says stuff hoping we either don't notice or will just believe him

[snively]

It's a tough dilemma.  We are tremendously dependent on Rondo and Pierce to generate shots for the rest of the team.  Take any of our players (other than maybe KG) away from those two, and they will struggle to score. 

This goes for all of our 2-guard options: Ray, Pietrus, Bradley and Dooling. 

So the key is measuring how much you lose offensively/gain defensively by putting one of those 2-guard options in the cozy spot between Rondo and Pierce.

With Bradley there, we get our best defensive option against teams that like to play quick combo guards at the starting 2-spot.  But we lose a 3-point shooter offensively (a great one in Ray, a good one in Pietrus), and we become extra vulnerable to 2-guards with size (I am very interested to see how Bradley does against Wade, though - if he does well in that match-up, it might be worth starting him when we play Miami).  Nor do we gain any rebounding as Bradley's a poor rebounder.

Pietrus is the guy you want starting over Ray.  He's a better wing defender than Ray or Bradley.  He keeps a 3-point shooter on the floor.  He can rebound at a good rate for a 2-guard. 

Unfortunately, with Pietrus sidelined for the interim, our best option is off the table for now.

I am hoping that Bradley can start to take and make more of those corner 3s.  If he can start making those @ 35%, he becomes a lot more appealing as a starter.

[Chief]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.


Good for Ray though. At least he's saying all the right things. Very professional.

Finally, I wonder why Rondo gets so mad at "things" sometimes?

Ray played fine without Rondo this year. Doc says stuff hoping we either don't notice or will just believe him

Or he believes we are just ignorant. Like his comment about Austin not having made his decision about going pro. Nobody believed that garbage. At least I hope you didn't.

[snively]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.


Good for Ray though. At least he's saying all the right things. Very professional.

Finally, I wonder why Rondo gets so mad at "things" sometimes?

Ray played fine without Rondo this year. Doc says stuff hoping we either don't notice or will just believe him

Ray can't create high-quality looks for himself off the dribble any more.  If he's not playing with a guy who can draw an extra defender and make the pass (like Rondo), his looks are going to be limited to the ones he gets running off 10 screens and whatever he can generate in the pick and roll (which any defensive team worth its salt can shut down with a hard trap given Ray's diminished speed).

When Ray has a big scoring night, it's typically because Rondo and Pierce are creating for him. 

[rayallen1934]

I wouldnt mind ray coming off the bench

but thinking this team can win with bradley playing starter minutes is hilarious

they beat minny, utah, and washington

give me a break

[pearljammer10]

I think Ray should start. Rondo creates so many open looks for him. Ray does still have the ability to get to the basket and finishes very well but only when he is so wide open for three that his man lunges out at him and he has a wide open lane to start with. Ray would get defending pretty hard in our second unit and with the way he has passed the ball this year (not well IMO most games with boneheaded plays when he panics) I dont know if the second unit is the best idea for him...

He can be a stellar third option in the starting line up. But im not so sure he can carry the duty of being the number one go to guy on the second unit at this point in his career.

[KGs Knee]

Glad Doc realizes how dependent on Rondo Ray is for his shots.

You raise a good point.  Yes, in part, Ray does depend on Rondo getting him the ball in his spots at just the right moment.

Here's the question that needs to be asked.  Which player is more dependant on Rondo's playmaking abilities, and playing with the starting unit as a whole?

In my opinion, the answer is easily Bradley.  When Bradley is in with the starters teams do not pay much attention to him.  His ability to move without the ball, and cut to the basket is significantly inhanced playing with Rondo and the rest of the starters.

I don't think it would at all be a bad idea to have Bradley start the game and play the 1st 6 minutes.  Bring Ray in at that point and he'll still be playing with Rondo anyways, but now against players that will either be more winded than him, or bench players.  How is that not beneficial?

Sometimes it isn't about who the better player is, it's about maximizing the abilities of both players and the team as a whole.  The better individual player does not always have to be the starter.

[greg_kite]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.

  Being a future HOFer isn't the same thing as playing like he's 30 years old.

You are right. That Ray Allen was scoring 25 points a game. All we need, this Ray Allen to do, is score 14 points a game. Something I am more than sure he can do from the bench.

As far as people making the point about Ray's production with Rondo. You assume just because Ray might come off the bench that he would never share floor time with Rondo. I'd bet half of Ray's minutes would be playing with Rondo. Especially the closing minutes where Ray has always been so clutch.

It's also possible Doc was saying it's easier for Rondo having Ray on the floor.  Having Ray spread the floor opens the floor up for Rondo to drive and create.

[LooseCannon]

Your ideal bench player should offer you some flexibility by being able to play more than one position, so what's better, Ray Allen as the nominal small forward in what amounts to a three-guard lineup or Avery Bradley as a point guard?

[BballTim]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.

  Being a future HOFer isn't the same thing as playing like he's 30 years old.

You are right. That Ray Allen was scoring 25 points a game. All we need, this Ray Allen to do, is score 14 points a game. Something I am more than sure he can do from the bench.

As far as people making the point about Ray's production with Rondo. You assume just because Ray might come off the bench that he would never share floor time with Rondo. I'd bet half of Ray's minutes would be playing with Rondo. Especially the closing minutes where Ray has always been so clutch.

It's also possible Doc was saying it's easier for Rondo having Ray on the floor.  Having Ray spread the floor opens the floor up for Rondo to drive and create.

  "We can move Ray, but then he’s not playing with Rondo and he doesn’t get looks. I mean, I think it’s simple until you actually do it.”

  Doesn't sound like it.

[wiley]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.

  Being a future HOFer isn't the same thing as playing like he's 30 years old.

You are right. That Ray Allen was scoring 25 points a game. All we need, this Ray Allen to do, is score 14 points a game. Something I am more than sure he can do from the bench.

As far as people making the point about Ray's production with Rondo. You assume just because Ray might come off the bench that he would never share floor time with Rondo. I'd bet half of Ray's minutes would be playing with Rondo. Especially the closing minutes where Ray has always been so clutch.

It's also possible Doc was saying it's easier for Rondo having Ray on the floor.  Having Ray spread the floor opens the floor up for Rondo to drive and create.

  "We can move Ray, but then he’s not playing with Rondo and he doesn’t get looks. I mean, I think it’s simple until you actually do it.”

  Doesn't sound like it.

Yeah, Rondo looked fine next to Tony Allen and he looks fine next to Bradley.  Wouldn't worry about Rondo, especially as it's just a starter bench issue, not a demotion or major change in minutes for Ray, unless his ankle prevents him from being effective...

[Eja117]

I'm calling it now...if we beat the Heat by 30 and Avery holds Wade to under 19 and goes for 17 himself...and then Ray comes back and we lose that night to the Bobcats or something I'm going to freak out, especially if Avery goes back to the bench in the process

[Neurotic Guy]

Doc Rivers is a fool. He makes it sound like Ray would be out of the league without Rondo. The guy is a future HOF, played many years without Rondo, I'm sure he could get his offense playing with other people.


Good for Ray though. At least he's saying all the right things. Very professional.

Finally, I wonder why Rondo gets so mad at "things" sometimes?

Reading your posts is like listening to Curt Schilling discuss Bobby Valentine.  Did Doc do something to you in your childhood?  He isn't a fool. He isn't an idiot. He doesn't suck.  He's also not perfect.  Listen to his HOF players talk about him. KG last week: "Doc is the best coach I've played for".