Rondo.....WOW. I want to watch this in games that mean something

[Yogi]

   Glaring weakness? SMH.  The guy can only make half his free-throws.  That costs us about 1 or 2 points a game. Is that what's referred to as a "glaring weakness" these days?  Jason Kidd, Tony Parker, Gary Payton and Avery Johnson all had/have great careers despite their free-throw shooting. 
   His jump-shot is not the prettiest looking or the most reliable but the guy shoots near 50% from the field over the last 3 years.  That's better than Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose and Russel Westbrook the four point guards ranked higher than him.  He also gets more assists than them, defends better than them, rebounds better than them, has much higher basketball IQ than them, has one more ring than them and doesn't back down from anyone be it Kobe or Lebron.
   If he shoots the same percent from the field, and his shot attempts go up, he'll actually score MORE than Rose, Paul, Westbrook, and Williams.  But he doesn't have to because he has even more efficient teammates.  Personally, I wouldn't trade Rondo for Chris Paul, Rose or Williams straight up. 
1) None of them represent Celtic culture like Rondo.
2) None of them are as fun to watch as a fan.
3) You play with one arm for my team, and step up and average a triple double in a play-off series against the "best player in the world,"  you've earned my support for the rest of your career.
4) He has a higher ceiling than any other point guard in the league.  Physically only Westbrook, Rose and Wall have some advantage while in terms of IQ he's pretty much unmatched.  He can run an offense like Nash, run a defense like KG, he can lead a veteran team because he commands the respect of hall-of-famers.  If he can learn to shoot well, who can argue he'll be the best point guard in the league?

[ms.ball]

   Glaring weakness? SMH.  The guy can only make half his free-throws.  That costs us about 1 or 2 points a game. Is that what's referred to as a "glaring weakness" these days?  Jason Kidd, Tony Parker, Gary Payton and Avery Johnson all had/have great careers despite their free-throw shooting. 
   His jump-shot is not the prettiest looking or the most reliable but the guy shoots near 50% from the field over the last 3 years.  That's better than Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose and Russel Westbrook the four point guards ranked higher than him.  He also gets more assists than them, defends better than them, rebounds better than them, has much higher basketball IQ than them, has one more ring than them and doesn't back down from anyone be it Kobe or Lebron.
   If he shoots the same percent from the field, and his shot attempts go up, he'll actually score MORE than Rose, Paul, Westbrook, and Williams.  But he doesn't have to because he has even more efficient teammates.  Personally, I wouldn't trade Rondo for Chris Paul, Rose or Williams straight up. 
1) None of them represent Celtic culture like Rondo.
2) None of them are as fun to watch as a fan.
3) You play with one arm for my team, and step up and average a triple double in a play-off series against the "best player in the world,"  you've earned my support for the rest of your career.
4) He has a higher ceiling than any other point guard in the league.  Physically only Westbrook, Rose and Wall have some advantage while in terms of IQ he's pretty much unmatched.  He can run an offense like Nash, run a defense like KG, he can lead a veteran team because he commands the respect of hall-of-famers.  If he can learn to shoot well, who can argue he'll be the best point guard in the league?

WOW! This is so true, Well said!
TP

[dtrader]

It isn't about the $. I have yet to hear anyone say that Rondo isnt a bargain.  I have yet to hear anyone say he isn't very good.  The issue is that what you usually hear is related to him being "the best there is at..", "best in the league at..", etc.  It's not really negativity as much as it is tempering the hype.

  It's not hype. Among point guards he's the best or arguably the best at running an offense, passing, rebounding and defending. Those might not be as noticeable as scoring but the all help win games.

Plus he is an exceptional player.  It's rare to see a player capable of being so dominant with such obvious deficiencys.  Its not like theres just holes in his game...Like you said, every player has holes...Lebrons shot is iffy, D12 has limited post moves, until recently Dirk wasnt a good rebounder.  The difference, is that no other player given the "elite" tag has such blatant shortcomings.  It's sort of like Shaq with free throws...theres no question that he's great...but imagine if he could just hit a free throw lol.

  Rondo's clearly a unique player. But what matters isn't whether a player has a blatant shortcoming, but their overall impact on a game. Dirk makes your elite list without being known as a really good rebounder, passer or defender. If great at one thing and average at three can be elite, why can't great at 3 things and below average at one?

Dirks game doesnt have a glaring weakness...thats why he makes my elite list.  I mentioned the holes in other elite players, to show that no players are perfect. Still...none of their weaknesses can be called glaring.  D12 has limited post moves (and isnt good at free throws), but those weaknesses aren't so severe, that other teams can readily exploit them to foil his entire team.  The same can be said for lebrons jumper.  Rondo is a GREAT point guard.  My point isnt to contest that.  My point, is that a lot of what appears to be negativity towards him only comes up when he is discussed as being somehow the "best".  If the only negativity a player with obvious shortcomings receives, occurs when he is talked about as being the best, I dont think that really qualifies as hate.

  I don't really agree with the thought that being average at many things is better than being great at dome and poor at one. Also, one could easily argue that the fact that DH isn't a reliable late game scorer is the reason the Magic haven't accomplished more, or point out that the Mavs foiled LeBron's entire team by exploiting his weaknesses on offense.

I never said that being average at many things is better than being great at some and poor at one.  All of the players I've mentioned are well above average (to the best at their position) at many things. What differentiates them, is that their weakpoints arent as severe. 

You could argue that D12 isnt agreat late game scorer, but there are so many variables going into that, that it's difficult to say if that is a result of his abilities, or his teams inefficiencies.  The only clear weakness to D12s game, are his free throws and limited post moves like I said, and it's extremely hard for any team to capitalize off of either of those to the point that it effects his entire team. 

Beyond his sometimes iffy jumpshot, I dont really see any weaknesses in lebrons offensive game.  I think he's an extremely well rounded offensive player.  He has great vision, handle, passing, rebounding, driving, and posting up.  I think most of lebrons trouble finding team success is related to the systems he's played in, and the people he's played with.

Anyway...My point about Rondo, is that we dont hate the guy. We (the Rondo critics) love having him, and appreciate the value he brings.  He's just such an awkward combination of skills for his position, that it's hard to stop looking at him and wondering why the things that come easy to most guards seem so impossible for him, when the things that most other guards would find impossible are childs play for him. 

[Celtics4ever]

What he lacks is skill and discipline.  He isn't the best shooter.  We all know he gambles a lot on D.


What he has is natural ability.  Speed and athleticism in spades.   Huge hands that give him ball control beyond belief.  Basketball IQ that makes him a good passer.

The former can always improve all time.   The latter not so much.   You can only improve your natural talents a small amount.   Bulking and stength up is the one area where you can improve them the most.   But speed can only be improved so much.  People can develop understanding of the game but high basketball IQ is something your either born with or not.   Skills on the other hand can be improved with hard work to a much larger degree.

[Greenbean]

   Glaring weakness? SMH.  The guy can only make half his free-throws.  That costs us about 1 or 2 points a game. Is that what's referred to as a "glaring weakness" these days?  Jason Kidd, Tony Parker, Gary Payton and Avery Johnson all had/have great careers despite their free-throw shooting. 
   His jump-shot is not the prettiest looking or the most reliable but the guy shoots near 50% from the field over the last 3 years.  That's better than Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose and Russel Westbrook the four point guards ranked higher than him.  He also gets more assists than them, defends better than them, rebounds better than them, has much higher basketball IQ than them, has one more ring than them and doesn't back down from anyone be it Kobe or Lebron.
   If he shoots the same percent from the field, and his shot attempts go up, he'll actually score MORE than Rose, Paul, Westbrook, and Williams.  But he doesn't have to because he has even more efficient teammates.  Personally, I wouldn't trade Rondo for Chris Paul, Rose or Williams straight up. 
1) None of them represent Celtic culture like Rondo.
2) None of them are as fun to watch as a fan.
3) You play with one arm for my team, and step up and average a triple double in a play-off series against the "best player in the world,"  you've earned my support for the rest of your career.
4) He has a higher ceiling than any other point guard in the league.  Physically only Westbrook, Rose and Wall have some advantage while in terms of IQ he's pretty much unmatched.  He can run an offense like Nash, run a defense like KG, he can lead a veteran team because he commands the respect of hall-of-famers.  If he can learn to shoot well, who can argue he'll be the best point guard in the league?

Rondo has zero confidence at the line.He doesnt drive for contact for quarters, games and sometimes weeks if he is ina funk. Rondo might shoot 50% but that is an average of shooting 75% for 2 weeks, then shooting 25% for the next two weeks. The guy isw a headcase at the line which is crazy when you think of how confident he is in almost every other facet of the game.

When Rondo is in attack mode, he is unstoppable. When he is afraid to go to the line because he missed his last 8 attempts, he is a completely different player. By the way, Tony Parker and Jason Kidd are good free throw shooters. And even when they were below average for a couple of seasons each, they still attacked.

I cant believe this but OI actually miss these Rondo debates.

[Celtics4ever]

He needs to realize that even if he can't shoot FT that fouls can still put out the other team's guys on the pine.  Again, FT are a skill not something that is an ability.

[BballTim]

It isn't about the $. I have yet to hear anyone say that Rondo isnt a bargain.  I have yet to hear anyone say he isn't very good.  The issue is that what you usually hear is related to him being "the best there is at..", "best in the league at..", etc.  It's not really negativity as much as it is tempering the hype.

  It's not hype. Among point guards he's the best or arguably the best at running an offense, passing, rebounding and defending. Those might not be as noticeable as scoring but the all help win games.

Plus he is an exceptional player.  It's rare to see a player capable of being so dominant with such obvious deficiencys.  Its not like theres just holes in his game...Like you said, every player has holes...Lebrons shot is iffy, D12 has limited post moves, until recently Dirk wasnt a good rebounder.  The difference, is that no other player given the "elite" tag has such blatant shortcomings.  It's sort of like Shaq with free throws...theres no question that he's great...but imagine if he could just hit a free throw lol.

  Rondo's clearly a unique player. But what matters isn't whether a player has a blatant shortcoming, but their overall impact on a game. Dirk makes your elite list without being known as a really good rebounder, passer or defender. If great at one thing and average at three can be elite, why can't great at 3 things and below average at one?

Dirks game doesnt have a glaring weakness...thats why he makes my elite list.  I mentioned the holes in other elite players, to show that no players are perfect. Still...none of their weaknesses can be called glaring.  D12 has limited post moves (and isnt good at free throws), but those weaknesses aren't so severe, that other teams can readily exploit them to foil his entire team.  The same can be said for lebrons jumper.  Rondo is a GREAT point guard.  My point isnt to contest that.  My point, is that a lot of what appears to be negativity towards him only comes up when he is discussed as being somehow the "best".  If the only negativity a player with obvious shortcomings receives, occurs when he is talked about as being the best, I dont think that really qualifies as hate.

  I don't really agree with the thought that being average at many things is better than being great at dome and poor at one. Also, one could easily argue that the fact that DH isn't a reliable late game scorer is the reason the Magic haven't accomplished more, or point out that the Mavs foiled LeBron's entire team by exploiting his weaknesses on offense.

I never said that being average at many things is better than being great at some and poor at one.  All of the players I've mentioned are well above average (to the best at their position) at many things. What differentiates them, is that their weakpoints arent as severe. 

  Again, aside from shooting/scoring, what does Dirk do that's well above average? It doesn't seem to be passing, rebounding or defending.

You could argue that D12 isnt agreat late game scorer, but there are so many variables going into that, that it's difficult to say if that is a result of his abilities, or his teams inefficiencies.  The only clear weakness to D12s game, are his free throws and limited post moves like I said, and it's extremely hard for any team to capitalize off of either of those to the point that it effects his entire team. 

  Just to put it in context, they have the last four years of clutch scoring on 82games.com. Rondo beat out Dwight Howard in 2 of the last 4 years. Rondo's scoring went down last year and Howard's went up, almost to the point where he cracked the top 60 for the league. How could teams not capitalize off of that?

Beyond his sometimes iffy jumpshot, I dont really see any weaknesses in lebrons offensive game.  I think he's an extremely well rounded offensive player.  He has great vision, handle, passing, rebounding, driving, and posting up.  I think most of lebrons trouble finding team success is related to the systems he's played in, and the people he's played with.

  LeBron's arguably the best player of his generation. But he's on a team where there are two other players capable of averaging 20+ points a game. In Cleveland he was on a team of good three point shooters who spread the floor and gave him room to operate. Exactly what kind of system does he need to play in to find success?

Anyway...My point about Rondo, is that we dont hate the guy. We (the Rondo critics) love having him, and appreciate the value he brings.  He's just such an awkward combination of skills for his position, that it's hard to stop looking at him and wondering why the things that come easy to most guards seem so impossible for him, when the things that most other guards would find impossible are childs play for him. 

  The Rondo critics range from you to people who think he's a mediocre pg who's (limited) success comes from playing with future HOFers. Aside from his ft/outside shooting, his skills aren't awkward for his position, they're exactly what are needed.

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron's arguably the best player of his generation. But he's on a team where there are two other players capable of averaging 20+ points a game. In Cleveland he was on a team of good three point shooters who spread the floor and gave him room to operate. Exactly what kind of system does he need to play in to find success?

Must be the same guys who liked Dominique.  LeBron is productive but with his propensity to choke I'd never call him the best player of his generation.

I think Rondo would be better in a running game with fast breaks.   There is not as much need for shooting and maximizes his strengths.  We just don't have the horses right now.

[CelticsFanNC]

LeBron's arguably the best player of his generation. But he's on a team where there are two other players capable of averaging 20+ points a game. In Cleveland he was on a team of good three point shooters who spread the floor and gave him room to operate. Exactly what kind of system does he need to play in to find success?

Must be the same guys who liked Dominique.  LeBron is productive but with his propensity to choke I'd never call him the best player of his generation.

I think Rondo would be better in a running game with fast breaks.   There is not as much need for shooting and maximizes his strengths.  We just don't have the horses right now.

  I completely agree with this.  Rondo does quite well considering this team isn't anywhere close to being built to maximize his strengths.  Truthfully it is built in a way the kind for puts a spot light on his weaknesses because the guys playing most of the minutes with him excel in the half court rather then the open court.

   Now he surely has benefited from playing with elite talent but for the past two seasons he has done as much to help them by getting them easy shots as they help him.

  I just have to wonder how well some of these other elite PG's would do if they were playing in systems that don't maximize their strengths as Rondo has done since the Big Three were put together.

  Put Rondo on a team with elite athletes that can consistently get out into the open court, which would maximize his strengths and people might look at him quite a bit differently.  As it is now he is excelling in-spite of being a square peg in a round hole.