Honestly, Every other NBA team sucks

[Roy H.]

Wait, is hitting big shots the number one factor in determining a player?  Since when?  I'll gladly take the Charles Barkleys and John Stocktons of the world over the Robert Horrys and Steve Kerrs.

I love Ray, and I doubt I've said a negative word about him on here.  However, he's simply not as good as Kobe.  Ray is a better shooter -- which is probably why he's also a better clutch shooter -- but Kobe trumps him almost everywhere else.

I'm not using that to say Ray is better. I'm saying the fact that Kobe is not as clutch and not a great leader puts him way out of the top 20 of all time. How can you be considered on the greats if don't even have those attributes?

Okay, if the clutchness doesn't make Ray better, what does?

Ray is the better overall player.

Kobe is a better defender, a better passer, a better penetrator, a better rebounder, and is a more prolific scorer.  Ray is a better shooter.

If your entire argument doesn't hinge on your version of "clutchness", then how exactly isn't Kobe better overall?

-Kobe is a better passer
-Rebounding is about the same
-As far as penetrating, its about equal. I think people seem to forget Ray as a Buck or Sonic. He drove almost everytime he had the ball and took people off the dribble. He was actually a penetrator first and improved his shooting after his 3rd season
-As far as defense, its his awards that make Kobe overhyped. All of those 1st team all-defensive selections he got in the past should have gone to Bruce Bowen, Artest, and Shane Battier who were head over heels better defenders

I didn't argue that Kobe was a better defender than Bowen, Artest, or Battier.  Clearly, though, he's been much better than Ray over the course of their careers; Ray never really played much D before coming to Boston.

Also, Kobe's rebounding has been significantly better.

Anyway, that's enough out of me.  Rather than bang my head against the wall arguing against a position that we all know isn't true, I'm going to bow out.

[Edgar]

For all the people attacking me lol
Just because I may have different views then maybe 95% of the fans, doesn't mean I am a troll.

Can't I have my own opinion?

I dont think people is "attacking you"
just by pointing they have "their " own opinion


Did anyone call you troll?

[Roy H.]

Did anyone call you troll?

One guy did, yeah, and that's not acceptable.

[Donoghus]

For all the people attacking me lol
Just because I may have different views then maybe 95% of the fans, doesn't mean I am a troll.

Can't I have my own opinion?

Sure you can.

I'm just looking for any sort statistic analysis that backs up your claims regarding Ray Allen being an "overall better player" than Kobe Bryant.  So far, all I seem to be hearing is a bunch of subjective opinion. 

[Bynum4MVP]

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

I often see this 82games.com thing referenced.

It's the stupidest made up article in the world that for some reason people just buy into.

The author openly acknowledges he is BS'ing.

"Obviously though this definition means a shot may not actually be a game winner -- it may only tie a game (if down two points) or it may allow enough time for the opponents to get a game winning shot of their own. Still it seems a reasonable compromise."

The author is stupid, he tried to fool you all by trying to call it "game winning shots" but they aren't.

Lol, this idiot author tried to push 17 Lebron "game winners" down our throat, the reality is:

Kobe 35 game winners
Jordan 28 game winners
Lebron 9 game winners
Wade 9 game winners

It's not even close.  I can post a list of all 35 Kobe game winners if you guys want but it's really long.

And if you want to look at the Heat's 2011 "Clutchness"; behold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudEYEVZJQ&feature=player_embedded#at=11

Wade's Game Winners
Dec. 14, 2003: Heat 90 - Raptors 89 (jumper w/ 28 secs and key block)
Apr. 18, 2004: Heat 81 – Hornets 79 (PO, 7 ft. jumper w/ 1.3 seconds)
Nov. 19, 2004: Heat 107 – Jazz 105 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Raja Bell)
Mar. 15, 2005: Heat 98 – Knicks 96 (buzz-beater, 22 ft. jumper)
Feb. 12, 2006: Heat 100 – Pistons 98 (PO, 16 ft. jumper w/ 2.3 seconds)
Dec. 18, 2006: Heat 101 – Hornets 99 (fadeaway jumper w/ 1.3 seconds)
Dec. 22, 2007: Heat 104 – Jazz 102 (buzz-beater, 20 ft. jumper)
Mar. 9, 2009: Heat 130 – Bulls 127 (OT buzz-beater, running 3-pointer off a steal)
Nov. 14, 2009: Heat 81 – Nets 80 (3-pointer w/ 0.1 seconds)

Lebron's actual game winners
Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (jumper over Jumaine Jones w/ 0.9 secs)
April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper over Desmond Mason w/ 0.5 secs)
April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (PO, bank-shot over Mike Ruffin w/ 5 secs)
May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (PO, layup w/ 0.9 secs)
May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (PO, layup w/ 2.2 secs)
Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup w/ 33.6 secs)
Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup w/ 0.9 secs)
Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Ronnie Turiaf)
May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (PO buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Hedo Turkolgu)

[OsirusCeltics]

For all the people attacking me lol
Just because I may have different views then maybe 95% of the fans, doesn't mean I am a troll.

Can't I have my own opinion?

I dont think people is "attacking you"
just by pointing they have "their " own opinion


Did anyone call you troll?

Vinnie did. Idk why lol

[OsirusCeltics]

Wait, is hitting big shots the number one factor in determining a player?  Since when?  I'll gladly take the Charles Barkleys and John Stocktons of the world over the Robert Horrys and Steve Kerrs.

I love Ray, and I doubt I've said a negative word about him on here.  However, he's simply not as good as Kobe.  Ray is a better shooter -- which is probably why he's also a better clutch shooter -- but Kobe trumps him almost everywhere else.

I'm not using that to say Ray is better. I'm saying the fact that Kobe is not as clutch and not a great leader puts him way out of the top 20 of all time. How can you be considered on the greats if don't even have those attributes?

Okay, if the clutchness doesn't make Ray better, what does?

Ray is the better overall player.

Kobe is a better defender, a better passer, a better penetrator, a better rebounder, and is a more prolific scorer.  Ray is a better shooter.

If your entire argument doesn't hinge on your version of "clutchness", then how exactly isn't Kobe better overall?

-Kobe is a better passer
-Rebounding is about the same
-As far as penetrating, its about equal. I think people seem to forget Ray as a Buck or Sonic. He drove almost everytime he had the ball and took people off the dribble. He was actually a penetrator first and improved his shooting after his 3rd season
-As far as defense, its his awards that make Kobe overhyped. All of those 1st team all-defensive selections he got in the past should have gone to Bruce Bowen, Artest, and Shane Battier who were head over heels better defenders

I didn't argue that Kobe was a better defender than Bowen, Artest, or Battier.  Clearly, though, he's been much better than Ray over the course of their careers; Ray never really played much D before coming to Boston.

Also, Kobe's rebounding has been significantly better.

Anyway, that's enough out of me.  Rather than bang my head against the wall arguing against a position that we all know isn't true, I'm going to bow out.

Well didn't mean to make your head bang
I respect your opinion though