Author Topic: NBA Off-Season News  (Read 81016 times)

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Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #525 on: September 16, 2023, 07:12:40 PM »

Offline gouki88

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“And is he the best? I think that Dražen, Dino, Divac, and Sabonis have done things that he hasn’t touched yet, although I believe he will. But, realistically, if Sabonis was now in the NBA at the age of 24, or Dražen, or Dino, or me… My people, if we used to watch the NBA on TV, we would certainly be much better than then. But comparisons are unnecessary, in my opinion, especially of different generations. To conclude, Jokić’s quality and size are not at all questionable,” Toni added.
Source: reddit

I love my man Dino, and Drazen and Divac were great players, but what have they done that Jokic hasn't accomplished?

The only guy I can't realistically compare Jokic to is Prime Sabonis.  Was he a top-5 center of all-time?  It's so hard to project.

The question of "how good could they have been if they'd grown up in a culture that embraced basketball as fully as today" is an interesting one.
Literally what is he talking about? The only one who could have the discussion is Arvydas, and that is half because of the unknown as to what he could have been - which, theoretically, was anything. But Jokic is miles ahead of all the others he mentioned

Drazen career was entering his prime before his untimely death. The 2 years prior showed he was maybe the best shooter in the league. It is a shame to think what a few more years of seeing prime Drazen would have been like.

And Drazen at his peak was still behind Jordan, Drexler, Reggie, Richmond and Dumars at his position in those two years.

Good argument he could've been better under today's style of play & rules though. His shooting threat would be enhanced. And teams couldn't be as physical with him allowing him to create more off the bounce.
In 93, Drazen was 3rd Team All NBA, behind only Jordan and Dumars and that was Dumars best year.  Joe D got worse every year after that till he retired.  Drazen was better than Reggie that year. He was similar to Mitch who missed half the games.  Drexler was past 30 and on the downslope of his career. There is a decent chance, Drazen would have peaked as the 2nd best SG in the league behind only Jordan during the Bulls 2nd 3-peat years.
Not a decent chance IMO, given Richmond's best was still to come & Houston-era Drexler was still better than him.
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #526 on: September 16, 2023, 07:58:42 PM »

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“And is he the best? I think that Dražen, Dino, Divac, and Sabonis have done things that he hasn’t touched yet, although I believe he will. But, realistically, if Sabonis was now in the NBA at the age of 24, or Dražen, or Dino, or me… My people, if we used to watch the NBA on TV, we would certainly be much better than then. But comparisons are unnecessary, in my opinion, especially of different generations. To conclude, Jokić’s quality and size are not at all questionable,” Toni added.
Source: reddit

I love my man Dino, and Drazen and Divac were great players, but what have they done that Jokic hasn't accomplished?

The only guy I can't realistically compare Jokic to is Prime Sabonis.  Was he a top-5 center of all-time?  It's so hard to project.

The question of "how good could they have been if they'd grown up in a culture that embraced basketball as fully as today" is an interesting one.
Literally what is he talking about? The only one who could have the discussion is Arvydas, and that is half because of the unknown as to what he could have been - which, theoretically, was anything. But Jokic is miles ahead of all the others he mentioned

Drazen career was entering his prime before his untimely death. The 2 years prior showed he was maybe the best shooter in the league. It is a shame to think what a few more years of seeing prime Drazen would have been like.

And Drazen at his peak was still behind Jordan, Drexler, Reggie, Richmond and Dumars at his position in those two years.

Good argument he could've been better under today's style of play & rules though. His shooting threat would be enhanced. And teams couldn't be as physical with him allowing him to create more off the bounce.
In 93, Drazen was 3rd Team All NBA, behind only Jordan and Dumars and that was Dumars best year.  Joe D got worse every year after that till he retired.  Drazen was better than Reggie that year. He was similar to Mitch who missed half the games.  Drexler was past 30 and on the downslope of his career. There is a decent chance, Drazen would have peaked as the 2nd best SG in the league behind only Jordan during the Bulls 2nd 3-peat years.
Not a decent chance IMO, given Richmond's best was still to come & Houston-era Drexler was still better than him.

Yeah, I don't see it.

Drazen was far and away the worst defender of the group. A well below average defender. Reggie was next worst but he was solidly middle of the pack defensively.

Drazen was a bad rebounder. He was an okay passer & ball-handler but nothing special. Drazen was a good ball-handler in Europe but not in the NBA. He wasn't quick enough. He didn't create enough Reggie was the only other guy comparable to him as a passer & ball-handler.

* Reggie was far more efficient as a scorer. A better defender. A comparable rebounder, ball-handler & passer.

* Mitch was a legit two way guy. An above average defender. A solid but unexceptional ball-handler & passer.

* Dumars, like Richmond, was a legit two way guy. He was a top notch shooter like Petrovic was. He was a high level defender. He was a strong scorer comparable to Petrovic. Dumars was a far superior ball-handler & passer with the skills to play PG. No comparison.

* Drexler was an elite rebounder, elite passer, high level ball-handler. He was still an above average defensive player in 1993. He was a far superior all-round player. A comparable scorer albeit an inferior shooter.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #527 on: September 16, 2023, 08:04:53 PM »

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It is not like Petrovic did not have any talented teammates around him. He had Mookie Blaylock and a young effective Derrick Coleman and then Kenny Anderson & Derrick Coleman. Those are pretty solid Big 3s and still New Jersey was nothing more than a .500 team. And still finished .500 the year after he died.

Petrovic didn't move the needle that much. He just wasn't well rounded enough. Too bad defensively. Not much passing or handles. Not much rebounding. Not that efficient as a scorer despite his lethal shooting ability due to his limited ability to create easy baskets.



I do see a good case for him being better in today's league because he would be encouraged and would shoot a load more 3s which would make him both a more dangerous & more efficient scorer.

The decline in defense combined with the increased threat of Petro's three ball would make driving easier for Petrovic than it was in the early 90s. So that should open up more opportunities for Petro as a ball-handler, shot creator and playmaker as well.

So I could see him becoming one of the top offensive threats in the NBA today. But not in the 1990s. He wasn't good enough relative to the demands of what the league was then.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #528 on: September 25, 2023, 09:54:05 AM »

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MacMahon mentions the Jazz will be players in the trade market, and it makes sense. Utah has so many rotation-level players that it doesn’t make sense to leave them on the bench all season. When you consider how many picks they’ll be making, over the next 10 years, they have to be active to continue upgrading at each position. If they don’t make trades and their draft picks supplant their starters, they’ll lose assets for nothing. That’s not something I could ever see Danny Ainge doing – via James Hansen @ SLC Dunk
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Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #529 on: September 25, 2023, 10:26:22 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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MacMahon mentions the Jazz will be players in the trade market, and it makes sense. Utah has so many rotation-level players that it doesn’t make sense to leave them on the bench all season. When you consider how many picks they’ll be making, over the next 10 years, they have to be active to continue upgrading at each position. If they don’t make trades and their draft picks supplant their starters, they’ll lose assets for nothing. That’s not something I could ever see Danny Ainge doing – via James Hansen @ SLC Dunk

More along this same line of thinking:

Quote
At this juncture, Toronto and Chicago have been the two possible destinations for Lillard discussed most by league figures. While a collection of NBA personnel expect Portland to engage Miami before finalizing something with another suitor, the Heat have not factored primarily in the Blazers’ recent dialogue surrounding Lillard, league sources said. Additionally, the Phoenix Suns and Utah Jazz have materialized as peripheral teams that could factor into larger deals that help facilitate Lillard’s departure from the Blazers. 3 days ago – via Jake Fischer @ Yahoo! Sports

Utah does seem to have players and picks that a team like POR would be interested in but what would UTA be looking for?  Tyler Herro?  Also, right now, UTA has both Markkanen and Collins, to me, both are natural PFs.  I would not want either playing as a wing (assuming Kessler is their long term starting Center).  If I was POR, I would like to get Markkanen but can't see UTA giving him up.  Maybe something with a starting structure:

Markkanen to POR (plus other MIA young players and picks)
Herro to UTA
Lillard to MIA

For this to work, UTA would have to value Herro equal or more than Markkanen.  I would far rather have Markkanen but UTA does have Collins.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #530 on: September 25, 2023, 12:39:21 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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MacMahon mentions the Jazz will be players in the trade market, and it makes sense. Utah has so many rotation-level players that it doesn’t make sense to leave them on the bench all season. When you consider how many picks they’ll be making, over the next 10 years, they have to be active to continue upgrading at each position. If they don’t make trades and their draft picks supplant their starters, they’ll lose assets for nothing. That’s not something I could ever see Danny Ainge doing – via James Hansen @ SLC Dunk

More along this same line of thinking:

Quote
At this juncture, Toronto and Chicago have been the two possible destinations for Lillard discussed most by league figures. While a collection of NBA personnel expect Portland to engage Miami before finalizing something with another suitor, the Heat have not factored primarily in the Blazers’ recent dialogue surrounding Lillard, league sources said. Additionally, the Phoenix Suns and Utah Jazz have materialized as peripheral teams that could factor into larger deals that help facilitate Lillard’s departure from the Blazers. 3 days ago – via Jake Fischer @ Yahoo! Sports

Utah does seem to have players and picks that a team like POR would be interested in but what would UTA be looking for?  Tyler Herro?  Also, right now, UTA has both Markkanen and Collins, to me, both are natural PFs.  I would not want either playing as a wing (assuming Kessler is their long term starting Center).  If I was POR, I would like to get Markkanen but can't see UTA giving him up.  Maybe something with a starting structure:

Markkanen to POR (plus other MIA young players and picks)
Herro to UTA
Lillard to MIA

For this to work, UTA would have to value Herro equal or more than Markkanen.  I would far rather have Markkanen but UTA does have Collins.

If Portland is going full rebuild, I’m not sure Markkanen fits in with that timeline. He’s going to be 27 next Spring.
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At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #531 on: September 25, 2023, 02:53:02 PM »

Online BitterJim

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MacMahon mentions the Jazz will be players in the trade market, and it makes sense. Utah has so many rotation-level players that it doesn’t make sense to leave them on the bench all season. When you consider how many picks they’ll be making, over the next 10 years, they have to be active to continue upgrading at each position. If they don’t make trades and their draft picks supplant their starters, they’ll lose assets for nothing. That’s not something I could ever see Danny Ainge doing – via James Hansen @ SLC Dunk

More along this same line of thinking:

Quote
At this juncture, Toronto and Chicago have been the two possible destinations for Lillard discussed most by league figures. While a collection of NBA personnel expect Portland to engage Miami before finalizing something with another suitor, the Heat have not factored primarily in the Blazers’ recent dialogue surrounding Lillard, league sources said. Additionally, the Phoenix Suns and Utah Jazz have materialized as peripheral teams that could factor into larger deals that help facilitate Lillard’s departure from the Blazers. 3 days ago – via Jake Fischer @ Yahoo! Sports

Utah does seem to have players and picks that a team like POR would be interested in but what would UTA be looking for?  Tyler Herro?  Also, right now, UTA has both Markkanen and Collins, to me, both are natural PFs.  I would not want either playing as a wing (assuming Kessler is their long term starting Center).  If I was POR, I would like to get Markkanen but can't see UTA giving him up.  Maybe something with a starting structure:

Markkanen to POR (plus other MIA young players and picks)
Herro to UTA
Lillard to MIA

For this to work, UTA would have to value Herro equal or more than Markkanen.  I would far rather have Markkanen but UTA does have Collins.

If Portland is going full rebuild, I’m not sure Markkanen fits in with that timeline. He’s going to be 27 next Spring.

Agreed. I think they'd be much more useful as a 3rd team in a trade for Harden, where Philly might want multiple rotation players in return instead of picks/prospects
I'm bitter.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #532 on: September 25, 2023, 09:18:22 PM »

Online Moranis

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Portland - Trent, KO, THT, 2025 CLE, 2025 MIN, 2025 UTA, 2026 TOR, 2028 TOR, 2030 TOR (lotto)
Utah - Anunoby, Boucher
Toronto - Lillard, Agbaji

That seems like a reasonable enough trade for all 3 teams.  Utah gives up its 3 2025 1st's to add OG to the core (and Boucher for depth) while giving up some expiring contracts and their rookie Agbaji.  Toronto lands Lillard and Agbaji for OG, Trent, Boucher and 3 1st's.  Portland gets 3 expiring contracts (that may have value) and picks up 6 1st round picks. 

Lillard, Barnes, Siakam, Poeltl is an excellent top 4 and they have solid depth with Schroder, Barton, Young, Porter, Achiuwa. 

Utah balances out their core better with OG adding to Markkanen, Collins, Kessler, Sexton and they still have a bunch of 1st's and a bit of redundancy in Collins and Markkanen for future trades.

Portland gets 6 1st round picks and a bunch of expiring contracts.  If you are entering a rebuild there isn't really a better start than that.  And they still have other players they can move for additional assets or salary relief.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #533 on: September 25, 2023, 10:12:38 PM »

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Lillard, at 33, is worth all that ?  6 first rounders is a lot.
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Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #534 on: September 25, 2023, 11:17:32 PM »

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Lillard, at 33, is worth all that ?  6 first rounders is a lot.
Most certainly not. 

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #535 on: September 26, 2023, 04:26:02 AM »

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Betonline says Celtics favorites to land Damian Lillard if he's not traded to Miami.


#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown)
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Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #536 on: September 26, 2023, 06:16:32 AM »

Online Moranis

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Betonline says Celtics favorites to land Damian Lillard if he's not traded to Miami.
thst seems really strange as Boston can't trade Brown (even if they wanted to), won't trade Tatum, and shouldn't trad3 Prozingis.  Doesn't leave much left except for draft bricks, which won't be very good given the age of Tatum and Brown.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #537 on: September 26, 2023, 08:48:14 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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Betonline says Celtics favorites to land Damian Lillard if he's not traded to Miami.
that seems really strange as Boston can't trade Brown (even if they wanted to), won't trade Tatum, and shouldn't trad3 Prozingis.  Doesn't leave much left except for draft bricks, which won't be very good given the age of Tatum and Brown.

I believe there is a recently signed trade restriction on Porzingis, he can't be traded until 27 Dec 2023, so that leaves Brogdon and White.   And with Lillard's salary ($45.6M), even Brogdon and White doesn't work.  It doesn't matter where the outgoing players go, if we add Lillard, we need to send out at least $45.6M in salaries, as I understand it.

I see absolutely no way the Celtics can trade for Lillard.  They could have before the Brown extension, and Brown could have been a nice player for POR to get back, but it would have had to be Brown, Williams AND Pritchard to work.  As it stands, this is what we would need to send out:

Brogdon
White
Pritchard
Banton

We end up with a great starting 5 but absolutely no depth.  And I don't think POR would be interested in any of those players.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #538 on: September 26, 2023, 09:16:40 AM »

Offline radiohead

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Betonline says Celtics favorites to land Damian Lillard if he's not traded to Miami.
that seems really strange as Boston can't trade Brown (even if they wanted to), won't trade Tatum, and shouldn't trad3 Prozingis.  Doesn't leave much left except for draft bricks, which won't be very good given the age of Tatum and Brown.

I believe there is a recently signed trade restriction on Porzingis, he can't be traded until 27 Dec 2023, so that leaves Brogdon and White.   And with Lillard's salary ($45.6M), even Brogdon and White doesn't work.  It doesn't matter where the outgoing players go, if we add Lillard, we need to send out at least $45.6M in salaries, as I understand it.

I see absolutely no way the Celtics can trade for Lillard.  They could have before the Brown extension, and Brown could have been a nice player for POR to get back, but it would have had to be Brown, Williams AND Pritchard to work.  As it stands, this is what we would need to send out:

Brogdon
White
Pritchard
Banton

We end up with a great starting 5 but absolutely no depth.  And I don't think POR would be interested in any of those players.

I think Timelord would have to be included in any possible Portland trade. He’s still relatively young and still does have some upside.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #539 on: September 26, 2023, 09:47:31 AM »

Online Celtics2021

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Betonline says Celtics favorites to land Damian Lillard if he's not traded to Miami.
that seems really strange as Boston can't trade Brown (even if they wanted to), won't trade Tatum, and shouldn't trad3 Prozingis.  Doesn't leave much left except for draft bricks, which won't be very good given the age of Tatum and Brown.

I believe there is a recently signed trade restriction on Porzingis, he can't be traded until 27 Dec 2023, so that leaves Brogdon and White.   And with Lillard's salary ($45.6M), even Brogdon and White doesn't work.  It doesn't matter where the outgoing players go, if we add Lillard, we need to send out at least $45.6M in salaries, as I understand it.

I see absolutely no way the Celtics can trade for Lillard.  They could have before the Brown extension, and Brown could have been a nice player for POR to get back, but it would have had to be Brown, Williams AND Pritchard to work.  As it stands, this is what we would need to send out:

Brogdon
White
Pritchard
Banton

We end up with a great starting 5 but absolutely no depth.  And I don't think POR would be interested in any of those players.

I think Timelord would have to be included in any possible Portland trade. He’s still relatively young and still does have some upside.

Yep.  Brogdon, TL, and Pritchard work for salaries, technically (we didn’t use the MLE so we can go over the second apron and take back more than we sent out this year only, if my understanding is correct), and with three years left on his reasonably priced deal, maybe TL, picks, and tradeable salaries work for Portland?  But our roster would look even more like Phoenix East.

If the Celtics are actually involved in these discussions, my guess is it would be as a destination for some of the pieces coming to Portland from a third team.