Author Topic: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?  (Read 13899 times)

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Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2019, 07:56:07 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I was on the site two days looking at designing a S&T scenario of KD to the C's. Wasn't sure as to if KD's out going number (if he had a 20% pay raise and going to a team over the cap) was still only counting as his last year's cap number? I do understand a third team would be needed to absorb cap part.
I believe the bigger problem is Boston being over the apron at the time of the deal. It's not the money involved. And Boston would not be affected by BYC problems or any of that, that's GSW's problem, if that actually applies here. If it does, it's just another reason why GSW wouldn't do a sign and trade of Durant.
I definitely know there are four teams that would be suitable third parties and C's have all those first round picks to entice a team to assit. I do think BYC would apply in this case and C's can get under the apron but I don't see either as a big hurtle if the right third team comes in. Biggest issue is I really don't feel KD would leave GS for Boston though. Warriors are the best shot and continued winning. NYK is a maybe as he may feel he can grow his brand there.
If BYC applies, and if Durant gets a max contract it appears it does apply, then it would be up to GSW to figure out how to make it work since their outgoing salary wouldn't be matching their incoming and only they know how they would want to handle it.

There would most likely have to be teams involved willing to send GSW salary to make up the difference. Those teams would need to be under the cap and there most likely would need to be a bunch of picks moving between the teams involved.

It's all really complicated and complex and I really see no reason for GSW to do it.

Then you have the Celtics apron problem. They are over it currently and would need to do a bunch of stuff to be under it after the trade and then would be hardcapped.

Don't see Ainge wanting to be hardcapped and give up other players or right to re-sign players to make the deal work.

So Boston doesn't look like they would do the trade and I don't see a very intelligent Warriors front office jumping through hoops to get the best or 2nd best player in the league to a team that could be perfectly positioned to end the Warriors title run after they get Durant.

The whole "get Durant to Boston" is pretty much a Boston fan's dream but it really has no chance of ever happening in real life.

You can go ahead and do all the research and actually create a scenario in which this trade is possible. But it will be all for nothing because how you run a business has to come into effect and neither Ainge nor the GSW front office would do this.
It's not as bad as that makes it out to be. If you are the Warriors you don't want to accept the full salary back. They have to pay Thompson and then Green. Being BYC helps them as they move him and don't need to accept all that salary back. As for the C's you have all those picks for a reason they are chips. Better if used to get under the apron and then get a third team in to help.

But I am in agreement on its a C's fan dream and not worth going through all the matches and debating people about a trade that likely won't happen. But I don't see it as a business issue it's a KD wanting to be here issue.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2019, 08:03:51 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I was on the site two days looking at designing a S&T scenario of KD to the C's. Wasn't sure as to if KD's out going number (if he had a 20% pay raise and going to a team over the cap) was still only counting as his last year's cap number? I do understand a third team would be needed to absorb cap part.
I believe the bigger problem is Boston being over the apron at the time of the deal. It's not the money involved. And Boston would not be affected by BYC problems or any of that, that's GSW's problem, if that actually applies here. If it does, it's just another reason why GSW wouldn't do a sign and trade of Durant.
I definitely know there are four teams that would be suitable third parties and C's have all those first round picks to entice a team to assit. I do think BYC would apply in this case and C's can get under the apron but I don't see either as a big hurtle if the right third team comes in. Biggest issue is I really don't feel KD would leave GS for Boston though. Warriors are the best shot and continued winning. NYK is a maybe as he may feel he can grow his brand there.
If BYC applies, and if Durant gets a max contract it appears it does apply, then it would be up to GSW to figure out how to make it work since their outgoing salary wouldn't be matching their incoming and only they know how they would want to handle it.

There would most likely have to be teams involved willing to send GSW salary to make up the difference. Those teams would need to be under the cap and there most likely would need to be a bunch of picks moving between the teams involved.

It's all really complicated and complex and I really see no reason for GSW to do it.

Then you have the Celtics apron problem. They are over it currently and would need to do a bunch of stuff to be under it after the trade and then would be hardcapped.

Don't see Ainge wanting to be hardcapped and give up other players or right to re-sign players to make the deal work.

So Boston doesn't look like they would do the trade and I don't see a very intelligent Warriors front office jumping through hoops to get the best or 2nd best player in the league to a team that could be perfectly positioned to end the Warriors title run after they get Durant.

The whole "get Durant to Boston" is pretty much a Boston fan's dream but it really has no chance of ever happening in real life.

You can go ahead and do all the research and actually create a scenario in which this trade is possible. But it will be all for nothing because how you run a business has to come into effect and neither Ainge nor the GSW front office would do this.
It's not as bad as that makes it out to be. If you are the Warriors you don't want to accept the full salary back. They have to pay Thompson and then Green. Being BYC helps them as they move him and don't need to accept all that salary back. As for the C's you have all those picks for a reason they are chips. Better if used to get under the apron and then get a third team in to help.

But I am in agreement on its a C's fan dream and not worth going through all the matches and debating people about a trade that likely won't happen. But I don't see it as a business issue it's a KD wanting to be here issue.
If the Warriors are trading Durant at $38.15 million they still have to take back the requisite salary. BYC or not. BYC makes it more difficult for the Warriors to do that.

Since this is a salary cap thread that needs to be said so people don't get the wrong idea from what you said, but otherwise, yeah, this trade can be discussed elsewhere.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2019, 08:17:02 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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I was on the site two days looking at designing a S&T scenario of KD to the C's. Wasn't sure as to if KD's out going number (if he had a 20% pay raise and going to a team over the cap) was still only counting as his last year's cap number? I do understand a third team would be needed to absorb cap part.
I believe the bigger problem is Boston being over the apron at the time of the deal. It's not the money involved. And Boston would not be affected by BYC problems or any of that, that's GSW's problem, if that actually applies here. If it does, it's just another reason why GSW wouldn't do a sign and trade of Durant.
I definitely know there are four teams that would be suitable third parties and C's have all those first round picks to entice a team to assit. I do think BYC would apply in this case and C's can get under the apron but I don't see either as a big hurtle if the right third team comes in. Biggest issue is I really don't feel KD would leave GS for Boston though. Warriors are the best shot and continued winning. NYK is a maybe as he may feel he can grow his brand there.
If BYC applies, and if Durant gets a max contract it appears it does apply, then it would be up to GSW to figure out how to make it work since their outgoing salary wouldn't be matching their incoming and only they know how they would want to handle it.

There would most likely have to be teams involved willing to send GSW salary to make up the difference. Those teams would need to be under the cap and there most likely would need to be a bunch of picks moving between the teams involved.

It's all really complicated and complex and I really see no reason for GSW to do it.

Then you have the Celtics apron problem. They are over it currently and would need to do a bunch of stuff to be under it after the trade and then would be hardcapped.

Don't see Ainge wanting to be hardcapped and give up other players or right to re-sign players to make the deal work.

So Boston doesn't look like they would do the trade and I don't see a very intelligent Warriors front office jumping through hoops to get the best or 2nd best player in the league to a team that could be perfectly positioned to end the Warriors title run after they get Durant.

The whole "get Durant to Boston" is pretty much a Boston fan's dream but it really has no chance of ever happening in real life.

You can go ahead and do all the research and actually create a scenario in which this trade is possible. But it will be all for nothing because how you run a business has to come into effect and neither Ainge nor the GSW front office would do this.
It's not as bad as that makes it out to be. If you are the Warriors you don't want to accept the full salary back. They have to pay Thompson and then Green. Being BYC helps them as they move him and don't need to accept all that salary back. As for the C's you have all those picks for a reason they are chips. Better if used to get under the apron and then get a third team in to help.

But I am in agreement on its a C's fan dream and not worth going through all the matches and debating people about a trade that likely won't happen. But I don't see it as a business issue it's a KD wanting to be here issue.
If the Warriors are trading Durant at $38.15 million they still have to take back the requisite salary. BYC or not. BYC makes it more difficult for the Warriors to do that.

Since this is a salary cap thread that needs to be said so people don't get the wrong idea from what you said, but otherwise, yeah, this trade can be discussed elsewhere.

Teams do not need to take back any salary in a trade; anything is legal as long as they don't take back MORE than is allowed. If the salary out is much higher than the salary in, it usually generates a trade exception based on the salary difference

If a third team is involved (especially if they're absorbing salary into cap space), you could theoretically have GSW taking back no salary, with compensation coming in the form of picks. As long as the other 2 teams don't take on more salary than the rules allow, there's nothing wrong with such a deal

With that said, though, I think there's a ~0% chance of such a deal happening. I can't see GSW trading Durant to a team that could challenge them. They'll let him go to a bad team, keep the cap space to pay Klay and Draymond later, and sign an MLE and some vet mins to fill out the team

Edit: also, for anyone confused by the whole discussion, BYC is Base Year Compensation, which makes sign-and-trades very tricky when a player gets a raise of more than 20%. It also applies to Rozier S&T ideas, as he counts for different salary going out than he does coming in. It's addressed in question 93 of the FAQs
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 08:22:26 PM by BitterJim »
I'm bitter.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2019, 08:27:29 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I was on the site two days looking at designing a S&T scenario of KD to the C's. Wasn't sure as to if KD's out going number (if he had a 20% pay raise and going to a team over the cap) was still only counting as his last year's cap number? I do understand a third team would be needed to absorb cap part.
I believe the bigger problem is Boston being over the apron at the time of the deal. It's not the money involved. And Boston would not be affected by BYC problems or any of that, that's GSW's problem, if that actually applies here. If it does, it's just another reason why GSW wouldn't do a sign and trade of Durant.
I definitely know there are four teams that would be suitable third parties and C's have all those first round picks to entice a team to assit. I do think BYC would apply in this case and C's can get under the apron but I don't see either as a big hurtle if the right third team comes in. Biggest issue is I really don't feel KD would leave GS for Boston though. Warriors are the best shot and continued winning. NYK is a maybe as he may feel he can grow his brand there.
If BYC applies, and if Durant gets a max contract it appears it does apply, then it would be up to GSW to figure out how to make it work since their outgoing salary wouldn't be matching their incoming and only they know how they would want to handle it.

There would most likely have to be teams involved willing to send GSW salary to make up the difference. Those teams would need to be under the cap and there most likely would need to be a bunch of picks moving between the teams involved.

It's all really complicated and complex and I really see no reason for GSW to do it.

Then you have the Celtics apron problem. They are over it currently and would need to do a bunch of stuff to be under it after the trade and then would be hardcapped.

Don't see Ainge wanting to be hardcapped and give up other players or right to re-sign players to make the deal work.

So Boston doesn't look like they would do the trade and I don't see a very intelligent Warriors front office jumping through hoops to get the best or 2nd best player in the league to a team that could be perfectly positioned to end the Warriors title run after they get Durant.

The whole "get Durant to Boston" is pretty much a Boston fan's dream but it really has no chance of ever happening in real life.

You can go ahead and do all the research and actually create a scenario in which this trade is possible. But it will be all for nothing because how you run a business has to come into effect and neither Ainge nor the GSW front office would do this.
It's not as bad as that makes it out to be. If you are the Warriors you don't want to accept the full salary back. They have to pay Thompson and then Green. Being BYC helps them as they move him and don't need to accept all that salary back. As for the C's you have all those picks for a reason they are chips. Better if used to get under the apron and then get a third team in to help.

But I am in agreement on its a C's fan dream and not worth going through all the matches and debating people about a trade that likely won't happen. But I don't see it as a business issue it's a KD wanting to be here issue.
If the Warriors are trading Durant at $38.15 million they still have to take back the requisite salary. BYC or not. BYC makes it more difficult for the Warriors to do that.

Since this is a salary cap thread that needs to be said so people don't get the wrong idea from what you said, but otherwise, yeah, this trade can be discussed elsewhere.

Teams do not need to take back any salary in a trade; anything is legal as long as they don't take back MORE than is allowed. If the salary out is much higher than the salary in, it usually generates a trade exception based on the salary difference

If a third team is involved (especially if they're absorbing salary into cap space), you could theoretically have GSW taking back no salary, with compensation coming in the form of picks. As long as the other 2 teams don't take on more salary than the rules allow, there's nothing wrong with such a deal

With that said, though, I think there's a ~0% chance of such a deal happening. I can't see GSW trading Durant to a team that could challenge them. They'll let him go to a bad team, keep the cap space to pay Klay and Draymond later, and sign an MLE and some vet mins to fill out the team
Very true, my bad, I should have been more explicit. But, the trade exception is still counted as salary in calculating the salary in the trade. It also counts against the cap until it expires in a year or is renounced.

Also, what I was trying to communicate is CsFan's assertion that the BYC helps them in taking back less salary. It doesn't. It makes it more difficult. GSW is only sending out half Durant's salary but they still need to take back 125% +/-  of the $38.15 million he signs for, whether with salary, trade exceptions or a combination of both.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2019, 08:53:23 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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I was on the site two days looking at designing a S&T scenario of KD to the C's. Wasn't sure as to if KD's out going number (if he had a 20% pay raise and going to a team over the cap) was still only counting as his last year's cap number? I do understand a third team would be needed to absorb cap part.
I believe the bigger problem is Boston being over the apron at the time of the deal. It's not the money involved. And Boston would not be affected by BYC problems or any of that, that's GSW's problem, if that actually applies here. If it does, it's just another reason why GSW wouldn't do a sign and trade of Durant.
I definitely know there are four teams that would be suitable third parties and C's have all those first round picks to entice a team to assit. I do think BYC would apply in this case and C's can get under the apron but I don't see either as a big hurtle if the right third team comes in. Biggest issue is I really don't feel KD would leave GS for Boston though. Warriors are the best shot and continued winning. NYK is a maybe as he may feel he can grow his brand there.
If BYC applies, and if Durant gets a max contract it appears it does apply, then it would be up to GSW to figure out how to make it work since their outgoing salary wouldn't be matching their incoming and only they know how they would want to handle it.

There would most likely have to be teams involved willing to send GSW salary to make up the difference. Those teams would need to be under the cap and there most likely would need to be a bunch of picks moving between the teams involved.

It's all really complicated and complex and I really see no reason for GSW to do it.

Then you have the Celtics apron problem. They are over it currently and would need to do a bunch of stuff to be under it after the trade and then would be hardcapped.

Don't see Ainge wanting to be hardcapped and give up other players or right to re-sign players to make the deal work.

So Boston doesn't look like they would do the trade and I don't see a very intelligent Warriors front office jumping through hoops to get the best or 2nd best player in the league to a team that could be perfectly positioned to end the Warriors title run after they get Durant.

The whole "get Durant to Boston" is pretty much a Boston fan's dream but it really has no chance of ever happening in real life.

You can go ahead and do all the research and actually create a scenario in which this trade is possible. But it will be all for nothing because how you run a business has to come into effect and neither Ainge nor the GSW front office would do this.
It's not as bad as that makes it out to be. If you are the Warriors you don't want to accept the full salary back. They have to pay Thompson and then Green. Being BYC helps them as they move him and don't need to accept all that salary back. As for the C's you have all those picks for a reason they are chips. Better if used to get under the apron and then get a third team in to help.

But I am in agreement on its a C's fan dream and not worth going through all the matches and debating people about a trade that likely won't happen. But I don't see it as a business issue it's a KD wanting to be here issue.
If the Warriors are trading Durant at $38.15 million they still have to take back the requisite salary. BYC or not. BYC makes it more difficult for the Warriors to do that.

Since this is a salary cap thread that needs to be said so people don't get the wrong idea from what you said, but otherwise, yeah, this trade can be discussed elsewhere.

Teams do not need to take back any salary in a trade; anything is legal as long as they don't take back MORE than is allowed. If the salary out is much higher than the salary in, it usually generates a trade exception based on the salary difference

If a third team is involved (especially if they're absorbing salary into cap space), you could theoretically have GSW taking back no salary, with compensation coming in the form of picks. As long as the other 2 teams don't take on more salary than the rules allow, there's nothing wrong with such a deal

With that said, though, I think there's a ~0% chance of such a deal happening. I can't see GSW trading Durant to a team that could challenge them. They'll let him go to a bad team, keep the cap space to pay Klay and Draymond later, and sign an MLE and some vet mins to fill out the team
Very true, my bad, I should have been more explicit. But, the trade exception is still counted as salary in calculating the salary in the trade. It also counts against the cap until it expires in a year or is renounced.

Also, what I was trying to communicate is CsFan's assertion that the BYC helps them in taking back less salary. It doesn't. It makes it more difficult. GSW is only sending out half Durant's salary but they still need to take back 125% +/-  of the $38.15 million he signs for, whether with salary, trade exceptions or a combination of both.

The trade exceptions count against the cap (which only matters if they drop below the cap, which they won't), but they don't affect luxury tax or anything like that. In a two team trade, things get tricky due to salary matching rules and BYC, but if a third team is involved to absorb excess salary (this third team would need to be under the cap by a significant amount) the I don't see what the problem would be

A two team trade would be pretty much impossible due to BYC, but if a third team is involved it is possible (just unwieldy and overwhelmingly unlikely)
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Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2019, 10:30:13 AM »

Offline Silky

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OK, So here it goes, to the best of my understanding.

Salary cap 2019-2020 109 million.

Current Celtics total for next season assuming al QO are offered and accepted, all non guaranteed contracts accepted, all Player options accepted is 132.9 million.

We can safely assume that Kyrie does not accept, so lets also(for the sake of seeing max capspace available) assume he signs elsewhere removing any caphold. (21.3 mill)

Lets assume Rozier signs elsewhere removing his caphold (4.2 mill salary, 9.1+ mill caphold)

Most expect that Al will opt out and resign at a lower/but longer contract. So lets say 3 year 66 million (starting at 20 mill year 1)


Team would then be witting at, BEFORE signing any rookies, 97.1 million in Capspace.

Not enough for any real signings of value.

So team really NEEDS to keep Kyrie, unless they plan do also dropping Hayward in a capsaving move.


« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 01:56:07 PM by Silky »

Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2019, 10:51:22 AM »

Offline __ramonezy__

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but sign and trades for Kyrie should still be on the table given the fact that we have his Bird rights... we may still be able to get a decent package back.

Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2019, 11:47:18 AM »

Offline otherdave

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Silky thanks for the outline - sorry to be nit picky - and the following would not change your NET figures, but I believe Terry Rozier has a 4.2 qualifying offer but a 9,151,170 cap hold (300% of current salary Q37)

Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2019, 11:57:00 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but sign and trades for Kyrie should still be on the table given the fact that we have his Bird rights... we may still be able to get a decent package back.

Highly unlikely... Kyrie not only loses money doing S&T, but it has to be agreed upon both teams, and he has to be willing to go a team that would not only lose assets/players.

Dangercart or Ryan Bernardoni has laid out a perfect assessment of our cap/AD potential deal.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2019/05/21/salary-cap-rules-potential-anthony-davis-trade/

Silky thanks for the outline - sorry to be nit picky - and the following would not change your NET figures, but I believe Terry Rozier has a 4.2 qualifying offer but a 9,151,170 cap hold (300% of current salary Q37)

You are correct.
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Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2019, 12:16:53 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Disclaimer:

In order for us to clear enough cap space to even tender any max to any one that is a 7 year vet would require a lot of obstacles.

We would need to lose Irving, Horford, and renounce all free agents along with either getting rid of our draft picks or getting someone to absorb Yabusele + Baynes.

In short, it's just not worth it. And we would be left with a team that is not only inexperienced, but definitely not good enough to be anything more than a 6th seed at best.
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Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
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Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2019, 12:27:56 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but sign and trades for Kyrie should still be on the table given the fact that we have his Bird rights... we may still be able to get a decent package back.

Highly unlikely... Kyrie not only loses money doing S&T, but it has to be agreed upon both teams, and he has to be willing to go a team that would not only lose assets/players.

Dangercart or Ryan Bernardoni has laid out a perfect assessment of our cap/AD potential deal.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2019/05/21/salary-cap-rules-potential-anthony-davis-trade/

Silky thanks for the outline - sorry to be nit picky - and the following would not change your NET figures, but I believe Terry Rozier has a 4.2 qualifying offer but a 9,151,170 cap hold (300% of current salary Q37)

You are correct.
good article.  TP

Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2019, 01:03:07 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but sign and trades for Kyrie should still be on the table given the fact that we have his Bird rights... we may still be able to get a decent package back.

Highly unlikely... Kyrie not only loses money doing S&T, but it has to be agreed upon both teams, and he has to be willing to go a team that would not only lose assets/players.

Dangercart or Ryan Bernardoni has laid out a perfect assessment of our cap/AD potential deal.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2019/05/21/salary-cap-rules-potential-anthony-davis-trade/

Silky thanks for the outline - sorry to be nit picky - and the following would not change your NET figures, but I believe Terry Rozier has a 4.2 qualifying offer but a 9,151,170 cap hold (300% of current salary Q37)

You are correct.
good article.  TP

Thanks. But all credit goes to Dangercart, hes Reddit and Twitters verison of our saltlover.

Very knowledgable, informative, and well experienced as hes written a few times BSJ.
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Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

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It's based on your perspective, quite simply
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Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2019, 01:05:42 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Edit: also, for anyone confused by the whole discussion, BYC is Base Year Compensation, which makes sign-and-trades very tricky when a player gets a raise of more than 20%. It also applies to Rozier S&T ideas, as he counts for different salary going out than he does coming in. It's addressed in question 93 of the FAQs

I remember having no idea what BYC was so this is helpful information.

It has been mentioned a number of times that a team trading a s&t player only counts for half of the money going out for the outgoing team, but for the full amount coming in for the receiving team. I think people generally have a handle on this idea - especially as it pertains to a Rozier s&t to the Pels.

However, there is another piece of BYC that many people seem to have overlooked (including myself recently) and this one has to do with Kyrie. For example, say Kyrie decided he wanted to sign with the Knicks, but didn't want to leave us with nothing. He could agree to a s&t with them, but since the Knicks are well below the cap, we could receive a nice TPE. Let's assume this is enough for Ainge as incoming players would just lower that TPE.

Now, everybody may assume that we would be receiving a TPE in the amount of the first year of Kyrie's contract, but that is not the case. Because of BYC rules, we would actually only be receiving a TPE in the amount of $20.1M - the amount Kyrie is making this season. This was put in place to prevent teams from circumventing the cap...(which makes no sense to me; if the league was going to allow a team to sign a player to that new contract, but the player wants to leave, they are essentially letting that team get screwed over).

Anyway, that $20.1M TPE is certainly nice, but it would not be enough to take in a player like Conley. We would have to lower our expectations on what type of player we could trade for using picks as compensation.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 02:03:40 PM by jambr380 »

Re: Celtics Salary Cap Breakdown for 2019-2020
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2019, 01:55:39 PM »

Offline Silky

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Silky thanks for the outline - sorry to be nit picky - and the following would not change your NET figures, but I believe Terry Rozier has a 4.2 qualifying offer but a 9,151,170 cap hold (300% of current salary Q37)

absolutely correct.

Sign and Trade
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2019, 12:43:45 PM »

Offline Diggles

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Hi,

Do some teams do sign and trades when the player could just sign as a free agent?   

In the case with Kyrie,  he would get a max deal and we would get some kind of asset.   But the team acquiring would be reluctant wouldn't they?   


In the case of Terry  we can match any deal then trade him to that team right?   So we would have a little more leverage. 

I'm wondering if Danny is comfortable taking a chance on Kyrie, with a back up plan of Terry.   Can't wait for June 30th.


Last question.  Can we sign and trade a player with another player on our team?   So sign and Trade a guy like Terry and Tatum for like Booker and TJ Warren?  (Not saying I'd do it, but it would be interesting)   

Diggles