Author Topic: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?  (Read 13900 times)

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Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2019, 09:40:17 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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I found an article that clearly states players like Jaylen Brown and Damontas Sabonis, who signed rookie scale extensions, can be traded this season after signing their rookie scale extensions.

Here:
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2019/10/21/what-domantas-sabonis-contract-extension-means-indiana-pacers/4057420002/

Can Sabonis still be traded?
Yes, once Dec. 15 comes, but the Poison Pill provision takes effect because of the extension. Sabonis is making $3.5 million this season with an average salary around $20 million when his extension takes effect in 2020-21. The Pacers would be sending out just $3.5 million (and that's the level of player they'd get in return for the slot). Sabonis' salary for the team he'd go to would be an average of his four extension seasons plus $3.5 million this year. That's in the neighborhood of $18 million against the cap for a receiving team. Such a deal like this is incredibly difficult to pull off and offers little benefit for the Pacers. Could it happen this season? Yes. Is it likely? No.

That source is not some blog, it's a legit media outlet.

If Sabonis can be traded then Jaylen can also be traded because they both signed the same PPP contracts.

But I'm not saying the Celts should trade Jaylen Brown, all I'm saying is it's not true that Jaylen can't be traded this season.

Why did you feel the need to essentially copy and paste your posts from a few weeks ago about this, with zero prompting?
EDIT

Some here said Larry Coon is the final authority when it comes to salary cap matters.

So I produced the material that clearly stated that PPPs can be traded.
Unlike designated veteran extensions, Jaylen and all the players that signed rookie scale extensions can be traded this season.


It's not a poison pill issue that's keeping Jaylen from being traded this season, it's that he can't be traded for 6 months after signing his extension, which is after the trade deadline.

If he had signed his extension July 1, he could be traded this season, because the 6 month wait would expire in January. But he signed his extension in October.

Dispute the 6 month part that came from Larry Coon.

This is from Larry Coon himself.

Here:
https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/10/12/17971806/justise-winslows-new-deal-makes-him-eligible-for-extend-and-trade-jimmy-butler-sacramento-kings

The extension also gives Winslow a significant raise from his rookie-scale contract. While not official lingo of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, this is often referred to as a “poison pill” contract — meaning that if traded, Winslow’s salary will be treated as the average of his remaining years for cap balancing purposes.

Coon explains it as follows:

The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick’s rookie scale contract and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect. When this happens, the player’s trade value for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the rookie scale contract and each year of the extension. The sending team uses the player’s actual salary when calculating their total outgoing salary, and uses the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

The key phrase is "then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect".

Between the extension is signed and the date it takes effect.
I don't think that's very hard to understand.

Jaylen and other rookies signed similar extensions in October 2019.
The new contract takes effect, July 2020.
So why is Coon saying the team then trades the player between the contract extension signing and the date it takes effect, October 2019 to July 2020?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 09:55:17 PM by nickagneta »

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2019, 09:56:38 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I found an article that clearly states players like Jaylen Brown and Damontas Sabonis, who signed rookie scale extensions, can be traded this season after signing their rookie scale extensions.

Here:
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2019/10/21/what-domantas-sabonis-contract-extension-means-indiana-pacers/4057420002/

Can Sabonis still be traded?
Yes, once Dec. 15 comes, but the Poison Pill provision takes effect because of the extension. Sabonis is making $3.5 million this season with an average salary around $20 million when his extension takes effect in 2020-21. The Pacers would be sending out just $3.5 million (and that's the level of player they'd get in return for the slot). Sabonis' salary for the team he'd go to would be an average of his four extension seasons plus $3.5 million this year. That's in the neighborhood of $18 million against the cap for a receiving team. Such a deal like this is incredibly difficult to pull off and offers little benefit for the Pacers. Could it happen this season? Yes. Is it likely? No.

That source is not some blog, it's a legit media outlet.

If Sabonis can be traded then Jaylen can also be traded because they both signed the same PPP contracts.

But I'm not saying the Celts should trade Jaylen Brown, all I'm saying is it's not true that Jaylen can't be traded this season.

Why did you feel the need to essentially copy and paste your posts from a few weeks ago about this, with zero prompting?

EDIT

Some here said Larry Coon is the final authority when it comes to salary cap matters.

So I produced the material that clearly stated that PPPs can be traded.
Unlike designated veteran extensions, Jaylen and all the players that signed rookie scale extensions can be traded this season.


It's not a poison pill issue that's keeping Jaylen from being traded this season, it's that he can't be traded for 6 months after signing his extension, which is after the trade deadline.

If he had signed his extension July 1, he could be traded this season, because the 6 month wait would expire in January. But he signed his extension in October.

Dispute the 6 month part that came from Larry Coon.

This is from Larry Coon himself.

Here:
https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/10/12/17971806/justise-winslows-new-deal-makes-him-eligible-for-extend-and-trade-jimmy-butler-sacramento-kings

The extension also gives Winslow a significant raise from his rookie-scale contract. While not official lingo of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, this is often referred to as a “poison pill” contract — meaning that if traded, Winslow’s salary will be treated as the average of his remaining years for cap balancing purposes.

Coon explains it as follows:

The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick’s rookie scale contract and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect. When this happens, the player’s trade value for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the rookie scale contract and each year of the extension. The sending team uses the player’s actual salary when calculating their total outgoing salary, and uses the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

The key phrase is "then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect".

Between the extension is signed and the date it takes effect.
I don't think that's very hard to understand.

Jaylen and other rookies signed similar extensions in October 2019.
The new contract takes effect, July 2020.
So why is Coon saying the team then trades the player between the contract extension signing and the date it takes effect, October 2019 to July 2020?

Dude read the article. The specific circumstance it outlines is an "extend and trade." It specifically states a player may be traded immediately if the contract signed is a three year deal. The obvious context being he cannot be traded otherwise. Jaylen signed a four year deal, and was not immediately traded and henceforth is untradeable for 6 months.  In other words this article supports the exact opposite of the point you are trying to make.

To answer your question the PPP is outlined for circumstance in which a newly signed rookie could be traded, ie in the extend and trade scenario or in the case he signs early enough in the summer to be tradeable by the trade deadline. Neither of those cases applies to jaylen.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 10:03:01 PM by nickagneta »

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2019, 10:06:58 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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I found an article that clearly states players like Jaylen Brown and Damontas Sabonis, who signed rookie scale extensions, can be traded this season after signing their rookie scale extensions.

Here:
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2019/10/21/what-domantas-sabonis-contract-extension-means-indiana-pacers/4057420002/

Can Sabonis still be traded?
Yes, once Dec. 15 comes, but the Poison Pill provision takes effect because of the extension. Sabonis is making $3.5 million this season with an average salary around $20 million when his extension takes effect in 2020-21. The Pacers would be sending out just $3.5 million (and that's the level of player they'd get in return for the slot). Sabonis' salary for the team he'd go to would be an average of his four extension seasons plus $3.5 million this year. That's in the neighborhood of $18 million against the cap for a receiving team. Such a deal like this is incredibly difficult to pull off and offers little benefit for the Pacers. Could it happen this season? Yes. Is it likely? No.

That source is not some blog, it's a legit media outlet.

If Sabonis can be traded then Jaylen can also be traded because they both signed the same PPP contracts.

But I'm not saying the Celts should trade Jaylen Brown, all I'm saying is it's not true that Jaylen can't be traded this season.

Why did you feel the need to essentially copy and paste your posts from a few weeks ago about this, with zero prompting?

EDIT

Some here said Larry Coon is the final authority when it comes to salary cap matters.

So I produced the material that clearly stated that PPPs can be traded.
Unlike designated veteran extensions, Jaylen and all the players that signed rookie scale extensions can be traded this season.


It's not a poison pill issue that's keeping Jaylen from being traded this season, it's that he can't be traded for 6 months after signing his extension, which is after the trade deadline.

If he had signed his extension July 1, he could be traded this season, because the 6 month wait would expire in January. But he signed his extension in October.

Dispute the 6 month part that came from Larry Coon.

This is from Larry Coon himself.

Here:
https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/10/12/17971806/justise-winslows-new-deal-makes-him-eligible-for-extend-and-trade-jimmy-butler-sacramento-kings

The extension also gives Winslow a significant raise from his rookie-scale contract. While not official lingo of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, this is often referred to as a “poison pill” contract — meaning that if traded, Winslow’s salary will be treated as the average of his remaining years for cap balancing purposes.

Coon explains it as follows:

The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick’s rookie scale contract and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect. When this happens, the player’s trade value for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the rookie scale contract and each year of the extension. The sending team uses the player’s actual salary when calculating their total outgoing salary, and uses the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

The key phrase is "then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect".

Between the extension is signed and the date it takes effect.
I don't think that's very hard to understand.

Jaylen and other rookies signed similar extensions in October 2019.
The new contract takes effect, July 2020.
So why is Coon saying the team then trades the player between the contract extension signing and the date it takes effect, October 2019 to July 2020?

Dude read the article. The specific circumstance it outlines is an "extend and trade." It specifically states a player may be traded immediately if the contract signed is a three year deal. The obvious context being he cannot be traded otherwise. Jaylen signed a four year deal, and was not immediately traded and henceforth is untradeable for 6 months.  In other words this article supports the exact opposite of the point you are trying to make.

To answer your question the PPP is outlined for circumstance in which a newly signed rookie could be traded, ie in the extend and trade scenario or in the case he signs early enough in the summer to be tradeable by the trade deadline. Neither of those cases applies to jaylen.

I already posted numerous articles like players who cannot be traded this season.

Jaylen or all the rookies who signed similar extensions are not on the list of players that cannot be traded this season.

There are also numerous articles I can provide you that says rookie scale extensions can be traded, unlike designated veteran extensions.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2019, 10:11:43 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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I found an article that clearly states players like Jaylen Brown and Damontas Sabonis, who signed rookie scale extensions, can be traded this season after signing their rookie scale extensions.

Here:
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2019/10/21/what-domantas-sabonis-contract-extension-means-indiana-pacers/4057420002/

Can Sabonis still be traded?
Yes, once Dec. 15 comes, but the Poison Pill provision takes effect because of the extension. Sabonis is making $3.5 million this season with an average salary around $20 million when his extension takes effect in 2020-21. The Pacers would be sending out just $3.5 million (and that's the level of player they'd get in return for the slot). Sabonis' salary for the team he'd go to would be an average of his four extension seasons plus $3.5 million this year. That's in the neighborhood of $18 million against the cap for a receiving team. Such a deal like this is incredibly difficult to pull off and offers little benefit for the Pacers. Could it happen this season? Yes. Is it likely? No.

That source is not some blog, it's a legit media outlet.

If Sabonis can be traded then Jaylen can also be traded because they both signed the same PPP contracts.

But I'm not saying the Celts should trade Jaylen Brown, all I'm saying is it's not true that Jaylen can't be traded this season.

Why did you feel the need to essentially copy and paste your posts from a few weeks ago about this, with zero prompting?

EDIT

Some here said Larry Coon is the final authority when it comes to salary cap matters.

So I produced the material that clearly stated that PPPs can be traded.
Unlike designated veteran extensions, Jaylen and all the players that signed rookie scale extensions can be traded this season.


It's not a poison pill issue that's keeping Jaylen from being traded this season, it's that he can't be traded for 6 months after signing his extension, which is after the trade deadline.

If he had signed his extension July 1, he could be traded this season, because the 6 month wait would expire in January. But he signed his extension in October.

Dispute the 6 month part that came from Larry Coon.

This is from Larry Coon himself.

Here:
https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/10/12/17971806/justise-winslows-new-deal-makes-him-eligible-for-extend-and-trade-jimmy-butler-sacramento-kings

The extension also gives Winslow a significant raise from his rookie-scale contract. While not official lingo of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, this is often referred to as a “poison pill” contract — meaning that if traded, Winslow’s salary will be treated as the average of his remaining years for cap balancing purposes.

Coon explains it as follows:

The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick’s rookie scale contract and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect. When this happens, the player’s trade value for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the rookie scale contract and each year of the extension. The sending team uses the player’s actual salary when calculating their total outgoing salary, and uses the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

The key phrase is "then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect".

Between the extension is signed and the date it takes effect.
I don't think that's very hard to understand.

Jaylen and other rookies signed similar extensions in October 2019.
The new contract takes effect, July 2020.
So why is Coon saying the team then trades the player between the contract extension signing and the date it takes effect, October 2019 to July 2020?

Dude read the article. The specific circumstance it outlines is an "extend and trade." It specifically states a player may be traded immediately if the contract signed is a three year deal. The obvious context being he cannot be traded otherwise. Jaylen signed a four year deal, and was not immediately traded and henceforth is untradeable for 6 months.  In other words this article supports the exact opposite of the point you are trying to make.

To answer your question the PPP is outlined for circumstance in which a newly signed rookie could be traded, ie in the extend and trade scenario or in the case he signs early enough in the summer to be tradeable by the trade deadline. Neither of those cases applies to jaylen.

Not true.

Here's an article that says otherwise.
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2019/10/21/what-domantas-sabonis-contract-extension-means-indiana-pacers/4057420002/

Can Sabonis still be traded?
Yes, once Dec. 15 comes, but the Poison Pill provision takes effect because of the extension. Sabonis is making $3.5 million this season with an average salary around $20 million when his extension takes effect in 2020-21. The Pacers would be sending out just $3.5 million (and that's the level of player they'd get in return for the slot). Sabonis' salary for the team he'd go to would be an average of his four extension seasons plus $3.5 million this year. That's in the neighborhood of $18 million against the cap for a receiving team. Such a deal like this is incredibly difficult to pull off and offers little benefit for the Pacers. Could it happen this season? Yes. Is it likely? No.

Sabonis signed his contract the same time as Jaylen.

Here's a more clearer explanation.
https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/8/2/16080436/report-andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-offer-wolves-glen-taylor

However, Wiggins could receive an extension and still be traded. Veteran extensions prohibit the new signee from being traded for six months following the date of the signing but rookie scale extensions have no such provision. The newly extended Wiggins contract would be immediately tradable but it would be “poison pilled.”
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 10:18:24 PM by Fierce1 »

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2019, 10:48:22 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.


Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2019, 10:55:17 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Guess the only way to settle this once and for all is to ask Larry Coon himself.

Here's also a list of players who can't be traded this season.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)
Iman Shumpert (Nets)
Carmelo Anthony (Trail Blazers)
Juwan Morgan (Jazz)

Jaylen or the other rookies who signed rookie scale extensions are not on that list.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2019, 10:57:40 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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nick

Here's an article specifically for Jaylen Brown, after he signed his extension.
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/10/jaylen-brown-contract-extension-5-ways-this-impacts-the-boston-celtics.html

3. Brown isn’t going to be traded… at least probably not this season

This contract now falls under what’s called the “poison pill provision.”

So what that means is if Brown was to be traded between now and when the extension kicks in, his value for the receiving team is the average of this, the final year of his rookie deal, and the value of his extension. That’s number is about $24.3 million.

However, the Celtics would use his current year’s salary, about $6.5 million.

That makes matching salaries extraordinarily difficult. It’s not impossible, but, basically, forget it.

That’s not to say he can’t be traded down the road. Bradley Beal has been a popular name as far as trade targets go but he can’t can’t be traded this season by virtue of his own contract extension. Their salaries do match up well next season, though.

That’s another story (potentially) for another day. For now there are too many restrictions to really consider Brown to be anywhere but Boston for the near term.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2019, 11:02:48 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Guess the only way to settle this once and for all is to ask Larry Coon himself.

Here's also a list of players who can't be traded this season.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)
Iman Shumpert (Nets)
Carmelo Anthony (Trail Blazers)
Juwan Morgan (Jazz)

Jaylen or the other rookies who signed rookie scale extensions are not on that list.

Keep in mind, this season doesn’t technically end until June 30.  I don’t think that nick is saying Jaylen, etc., can’t be traded this season. Rather, he’s saying JB can’t be traded for six months from the date of his extension.
Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2019, 11:07:23 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Guess the only way to settle this once and for all is to ask Larry Coon himself.

Here's also a list of players who can't be traded this season.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)
Iman Shumpert (Nets)
Carmelo Anthony (Trail Blazers)
Juwan Morgan (Jazz)

Jaylen or the other rookies who signed rookie scale extensions are not on that list.

Keep in mind, this season doesn’t technically end until June 30.  I don’t think that nick is saying Jaylen, etc., can’t be traded this season. Rather, he’s saying JB can’t be traded for six months from the date of his extension.

I don't think so, Roy.

Check the article above, about Jaylen's new contract and how it's "poisoned pilled".

The receiving team would be getting a 24.3m cap hit while the Celts' cap hit is only 6.5m.

And it clearly states that Brown can immediately be traded after signing the extension.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2019, 11:07:36 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Reading through the FAQ, it's actually unclear.  It specifically mentions that there are no limits on the extension terms after a rookie scale player is traded (normally you need to wait 6 months to exceed the extend-and-trade limits), and gives the James Harden deal as an example, but it is not clear on whether the 6 month trade exclusion exists after a rookie-scale extension is signed (and there are no examples for this because no one trades the young player that they just extended, and even if they wanted to the PPP makes things very difficult). It seems like it would be a huge oversight by the NBAPA to allow a team to extend a player and then trade them, but it's an unlikely deal in any case

Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Guess the only way to settle this once and for all is to ask Larry Coon himself.

Here's also a list of players who can't be traded this season.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)
Iman Shumpert (Nets)
Carmelo Anthony (Trail Blazers)
Juwan Morgan (Jazz)

Jaylen or the other rookies who signed rookie scale extensions are not on that list.

You're in luck!  Questions 122 and 123 go into how to contact him:
Quote from: Larry Coon
122. What if this FAQ is wrong? How authoritative is this FAQ?
This FAQ has been fact-checked against the actual CBA, and I'm pretty confident about its accuracy. Still, this FAQ isn't necessarily 100% accurate. If you find any errors, please contact me at lmcoon@cox.net (please include the source of your information, if possible). You may also contact me if there are additional questions you would like to see added to this FAQ, or if you find any of the answers confusing and in need of clarification.

The author of this FAQ is not employed by the NBA, any of its teams or the NBA players association.

123. Can I e-mail you with other CBA-related questions?
Yes! But while I try to answer questions to the best of my ability, the number of questions I receive often overwhelms the amount of time I have for answering them. In addition some responses have to wait until I can verify facts with others, or get batched together so I can respond to a set of related messages all at once. Unfortunately, questions that are longer and involve a lot of thought, research and/or detail on my part tend to get answered less frequently than simple ones that I can answer off the top of my head.

If you have a question, my first recommendation is that you make a reasonable effort to ensure the information you're looking for isn't already covered in the FAQ. Once you've done that, you'll probaby find that your question will get answered sooner if you post it where other CBA-knowledgeable people will seee it.

One excellent venue for questions is Twitter. Follow me at http://www.twitter.com/LarryCoon. Questions posted to Twitter are usually answered more quickly, either by me or by someone else who sees your tweet, although the Twitter format precludes lengthy, detailed answers (which usually is a good thing).

You might also try the CBA/Business discussion forum at RealGM.com: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=4, which a number of CBA-knowledgeable people frequent.

Finally, if you're really interested in exploring this in depth (along with many other aspects of working in sports), I am the General Manager of Sports Business Classroom, which is a week-long seminar held during the Las Vegas Summer League.

I also recognize that some of you (members of the media, etc.) need this information as part of your job, and not simply because you're curious. I try to give these questions higher priority. Apologies in advance to anybody who gets put on the back burner as a result.

The bottom line is that I get more questions than I have the ability to answer. Apologies to anyone who has sent me an e-mail and didn't receive a reply.
I'm bitter.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2019, 11:12:24 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Reading through the FAQ, it's actually unclear.  It specifically mentions that there are no limits on the extension terms after a rookie scale player is traded (normally you need to wait 6 months to exceed the extend-and-trade limits), and gives the James Harden deal as an example, but it is not clear on whether the 6 month trade exclusion exists after a rookie-scale extension is signed (and there are no examples for this because no one trades the young player that they just extended, and even if they wanted to the PPP makes things very difficult). It seems like it would be a huge oversight by the NBAPA to allow a team to extend a player and then trade them, but it's an unlikely deal in any case

Fierce, what you seem to not take into consideration is those articles are as wrong as you are. The CBA is a huge document with tons of details that most beat writers, heck most NBA writers, do not know all of. They have basic knowledge but that's it. Then it just takes one writer to publish wrong info because they think they know all the details, but they don't and suddenly others read that article and publish more bad info based on the first bad article. I am sure that is what is happening here.

Larry Coon is widely regarded as an absolute expert on the NBA CBA, has been for well over a decade, and his site is the pre eminent website on NBA CBA information. What exactly are the authors' credentials regarding the NBA CBA who wrote the articles you are quoting? Are they regarded as NBA CBA experts? No, they aren't.

It's real simple:

On that Larry Coon site, as has been posted multiple times, it states you can't be traded until 6 months have passed after signing an extension. There are no exceptions to that rule written anywhere.

The Poison Pill Provision takes place after the 6 months have passed after signing the extension and is in place until that player starts his new contract. If Jaylen had signed his extension in July then in could have been eligible to be traded in January. Because he signed it in October he can't be traded because his six months expire after the trade deadline.

Guess the only way to settle this once and for all is to ask Larry Coon himself.

Here's also a list of players who can't be traded this season.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)
Iman Shumpert (Nets)
Carmelo Anthony (Trail Blazers)
Juwan Morgan (Jazz)

Jaylen or the other rookies who signed rookie scale extensions are not on that list.

You're in luck!  Questions 122 and 123 go into how to contact him:
Quote from: Larry Coon
122. What if this FAQ is wrong? How authoritative is this FAQ?
This FAQ has been fact-checked against the actual CBA, and I'm pretty confident about its accuracy. Still, this FAQ isn't necessarily 100% accurate. If you find any errors, please contact me at lmcoon@cox.net (please include the source of your information, if possible). You may also contact me if there are additional questions you would like to see added to this FAQ, or if you find any of the answers confusing and in need of clarification.

The author of this FAQ is not employed by the NBA, any of its teams or the NBA players association.

123. Can I e-mail you with other CBA-related questions?
Yes! But while I try to answer questions to the best of my ability, the number of questions I receive often overwhelms the amount of time I have for answering them. In addition some responses have to wait until I can verify facts with others, or get batched together so I can respond to a set of related messages all at once. Unfortunately, questions that are longer and involve a lot of thought, research and/or detail on my part tend to get answered less frequently than simple ones that I can answer off the top of my head.

If you have a question, my first recommendation is that you make a reasonable effort to ensure the information you're looking for isn't already covered in the FAQ. Once you've done that, you'll probaby find that your question will get answered sooner if you post it where other CBA-knowledgeable people will seee it.

One excellent venue for questions is Twitter. Follow me at http://www.twitter.com/LarryCoon. Questions posted to Twitter are usually answered more quickly, either by me or by someone else who sees your tweet, although the Twitter format precludes lengthy, detailed answers (which usually is a good thing).

You might also try the CBA/Business discussion forum at RealGM.com: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=4, which a number of CBA-knowledgeable people frequent.

Finally, if you're really interested in exploring this in depth (along with many other aspects of working in sports), I am the General Manager of Sports Business Classroom, which is a week-long seminar held during the Las Vegas Summer League.

I also recognize that some of you (members of the media, etc.) need this information as part of your job, and not simply because you're curious. I try to give these questions higher priority. Apologies in advance to anybody who gets put on the back burner as a result.

The bottom line is that I get more questions than I have the ability to answer. Apologies to anyone who has sent me an e-mail and didn't receive a reply.

I agree.

There's no point in trying to trade a contract like Jaylen's now because it's just too complicated.

Also, if rookie scale contracts can't be traded then the CBA faq would just have stated that rookie scale extensions can't be traded.

Right now only designated veteran extensions can't be traded for 6 months.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2019, 11:23:34 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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From #123 of Coon's CBA faq, it referenced RealGM.com as a source of CBA discussions.

And from what I saw in one of their threads, they came to the conclusion below.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1652291

Post#20 » by DBoys » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:41 pm

Edited - will make my summary again and leave it at that, so we can move on.

Re a rookie scale extension, relating to a trade:

The 1st round player on rookie scale deal who is entering his 4th year can be
A - traded before a rookie extension, and then still be extended after,
b - traded as part of an extension (ie, extend-and-trade), or
c - be extended first and then traded traded (subject to special cap rules).

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2019, 11:27:58 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I just read the relevant part of the CBA.  Only “7(a)” extensions — Veteran extensions — are subject to the six month rule. “7(b)” Rookie Scale extensions are treated under separate rules.

See pages 220 - 230, specifically page 229:

https://cosmic-s3.imgix.net/3c7a0a50-8e11-11e9-875d-3d44e94ae33f-2017-NBA-NBPA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement.pdf



Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat. CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012.

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2019, 11:39:13 PM »

Offline Fierce1

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I just read the relevant part of the CBA.  Only “7(a)” extensions — Veteran extensions — are subject to the six month rule. “7(b)” Rookie Scale extensions are treated under separate rules.

See pages 220 - 230, specifically page 229:

https://cosmic-s3.imgix.net/3c7a0a50-8e11-11e9-875d-3d44e94ae33f-2017-NBA-NBPA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement.pdf

There you go.

Thanks for the find, Roy.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 11:45:42 PM by Fierce1 »

Re: How do the NBA salary cap rules really work?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2019, 07:57:47 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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My apologies. Guess Coon is wrong, as well as myself.