overcoming failure

[Never Nervous Pervis]

Maybe I'm dating myself here, but I remember the days when teams had to persevere through multiple playoff disappointments before finding the mental toughness to go all the way.

In the 80s, you had the Bad Boy Pistons who were eliminated 5 consecutive years from 83-87 before finally winning back-to-back championships.

And then you had the Jordan Bulls, who had 6 consecutive playoff disappointments (including 3 straight losses in the first round) before 3-peating.

In each case, their superstars spent long summers licking their wounds, and they always came back with new wrinkles to their games and a new psychological edge that eventually took them to the promised land.

This year's Celtics were a major disappointment, and there's a lot of blame to go around, but people act like we should just cancel our all-star guard (without getting assets in return!) because he didn't live up to the high expectations we had.

Maybe Kyrie will never be a true superstar, and maybe he is this strange, mercurial guy incapable of happiness, but I personally think he's going to do some real soul-searching this summer and come back with a new edge.

I'd love to see him, Gordon, Tatum and Brown spend some time talking with KG and Bill Russell, even if it's just for a couple hours, and just hear their stories and absorb their wisdom. It's really a mental thing now, and all four guys are young and cerebral enough to make the necessary mental adjustments. At least I hope so.

[tenn_smoothie]

Then you had the 80's Celtics and Lakers whose stars were real leaders - Magic gets the Lakers a title his rookie season and Bird leads the Celtics to a title his second season. Kyrie is no Larry Bird or Magic johnson. He is not even Isaiah Thomas or Michael Jordan. He does not have a champion's heart. It wasn't just that he didn't live up to expectations - Irving was actively destructive towards team success, on and off the court.

[Never Nervous Pervis]

Then you had the 80's Celtics and Lakers whose stars were real leaders - Magic gets the Lakers a title his rookie season and Bird leads the Celtics to a title his second season. Kyrie is no Larry Bird or Magic johnson. He is not even Isaiah Thomas or Michael Jordan. He does not have a champion's heart. It wasn't just that he didn't live up to expectations - Irving was actively destructive towards team success, on and off the court.

That's not true. Bird and Magic had plenty of disappointing playoff losses. Here's but one example.   http://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5297142

Magic Johnson on Game 7 loss to Boston in 1984: "I failed and I just didn't want to see anybody that summer."

[mr. dee]

Then you had the 80's Celtics and Lakers whose stars were real leaders - Magic gets the Lakers a title his rookie season and Bird leads the Celtics to a title his second season. Kyrie is no Larry Bird or Magic johnson. He is not even Isaiah Thomas or Michael Jordan. He does not have a champion's heart. It wasn't just that he didn't live up to expectations - Irving was actively destructive towards team success, on and off the court.

That's not true. Bird and Magic had plenty of disappointing playoff losses. Here's but one example.   http://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5297142

Magic Johnson on Game 7 loss to Boston in 1984: "I failed and I just didn't want to see anybody that summer."

You clearly misunderstood Magic. Did he failed? Sure, but it was clear that he was frustrated. That's a sign of competitive fire that indicates that he will work harder to make sure he improve next year.

Meanwhile, I don't see any emotions or sincerity about Kyrie:

"Who cares?"
"I should have taken 30 shots"
"No time to be disappointed"

Are not something a person reflecting on his shortcomings would say.

Those players you mentioned played hard in defeat.

- Jordan scoring 60 plus on a sweep against Boston
- Larry Bird still post an efficient statline and effort despite the embarrassing sweep against the Bucks
- Kobe playing elite defense, grab rebounds and pass(yes, sometimes) when his shots are not falling

It's not that people hated Kyrie because he fell short. It's because he played like he didn't care. He's not running back on defense, nor he pass to his teammates when doubled and shoots ill advised heat checks before even the offense can get set.

IT, for all his shortcomings play hard. He's a liability on defense but he's trying. He sacrificed his hip just to get his team to the next round. I haven't seen that type of commitment from Kyrie.

[Never Nervous Pervis]

Then you had the 80's Celtics and Lakers whose stars were real leaders - Magic gets the Lakers a title his rookie season and Bird leads the Celtics to a title his second season. Kyrie is no Larry Bird or Magic johnson. He is not even Isaiah Thomas or Michael Jordan. He does not have a champion's heart. It wasn't just that he didn't live up to expectations - Irving was actively destructive towards team success, on and off the court.

That's not true. Bird and Magic had plenty of disappointing playoff losses. Here's but one example.   http://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5297142

Magic Johnson on Game 7 loss to Boston in 1984: "I failed and I just didn't want to see anybody that summer."

You clearly misunderstood Magic. Did he failed? Sure, but it was clear that he was frustrated. That's a sign of competitive fire that indicates that he will work harder to make sure he improve next year.

Meanwhile, I don't see any emotions or sincerity about Kyrie:

"Who cares?"
"I should have taken 30 shots"
"No time to be disappointed"

Are not something a person reflecting on his shortcomings would say.

Those players you mentioned played hard in defeat.

- Jordan scoring 60 plus on a sweep against Boston
- Larry Bird still post an efficient statline and effort despite the embarrassing sweep against the Bucks
- Kobe playing elite defense, grab rebounds and pass(yes, sometimes) when his shots are not falling

It's not that people hated Kyrie because he fell short. It's because he played like he didn't care. He's not running back on defense, nor he pass to his teammates when doubled and shoots ill advised heat checks before even the offense can get set.

IT, for all his shortcomings play hard. He's a liability on defense but he's trying. He sacrificed his hip just to get his team to the next round. I haven't seen that type of commitment from Kyrie.

Magic's an all-time great, but don't distort history. After that 1984 Finals loss to the Celtics, he faced so much heat for his poor performance and questionable decision-making (inexplicable turnovers, missing key free throws in OT, dribbling out a possession at the end of game 2 with the score tied without getting off a shot) that fans called him "Tragic Johnson."

And don't forget Magic got Paul Westhead fired as head coach fresh off that first championship run, a move that alienated teammates and fans alike. Imagine how that would have played out in the era of social media?

I'm not comparing Kyrie to Magic, I'm saying all superstars have to overcome adversity early in their careers and perceived attitude problems, and it's too early to write off Kyrie just because of one frustrating season, especially when there's plenty of blame to go around.

And IT was routinely criticized in some circles for selfishly focusing on the Brinks truck and his next contract. People remember what they want to remember.

[Celtics4ever]

Failure has to bother you to overcome it, not sure that is the case as much with the modern NBA athlete.

[mr. dee]

Then you had the 80's Celtics and Lakers whose stars were real leaders - Magic gets the Lakers a title his rookie season and Bird leads the Celtics to a title his second season. Kyrie is no Larry Bird or Magic johnson. He is not even Isaiah Thomas or Michael Jordan. He does not have a champion's heart. It wasn't just that he didn't live up to expectations - Irving was actively destructive towards team success, on and off the court.

That's not true. Bird and Magic had plenty of disappointing playoff losses. Here's but one example.   http://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5297142

Magic Johnson on Game 7 loss to Boston in 1984: "I failed and I just didn't want to see anybody that summer."

You clearly misunderstood Magic. Did he failed? Sure, but it was clear that he was frustrated. That's a sign of competitive fire that indicates that he will work harder to make sure he improve next year.

Meanwhile, I don't see any emotions or sincerity about Kyrie:

"Who cares?"
"I should have taken 30 shots"
"No time to be disappointed"

Are not something a person reflecting on his shortcomings would say.

Those players you mentioned played hard in defeat.

- Jordan scoring 60 plus on a sweep against Boston
- Larry Bird still post an efficient statline and effort despite the embarrassing sweep against the Bucks
- Kobe playing elite defense, grab rebounds and pass(yes, sometimes) when his shots are not falling

It's not that people hated Kyrie because he fell short. It's because he played like he didn't care. He's not running back on defense, nor he pass to his teammates when doubled and shoots ill advised heat checks before even the offense can get set.

IT, for all his shortcomings play hard. He's a liability on defense but he's trying. He sacrificed his hip just to get his team to the next round. I haven't seen that type of commitment from Kyrie.

Magic's an all-time great, but don't distort history. After that 1984 Finals loss to the Celtics, he faced so much heat for his poor performance and questionable decision-making (inexplicable turnovers, missing key free throws in OT, dribbling out a possession at the end of game 2 with the score tied without getting off a shot) that fans called him "Tragic Johnson."

And don't forget Magic got Paul Westhead fired as head coach fresh off that first championship run, a move that alienated teammates and fans alike. Imagine how that would have played out in the era of social media?

I'm not comparing Kyrie to Magic, I'm saying all superstars have to overcome adversity early in their careers and perceived attitude problems, and it's too early to write off Kyrie just because of one frustrating season, especially when there's plenty of blame to go around.

And IT was routinely criticized in some circles for selfishly focusing on the Brinks truck and his next contract. People remember what they want to remember.

IT was scrutinized for his Brinks truck comments, but that's another thing. People know IT is tough as nails and is ready to die in war with you. I can't say the same with Kyrie. And judging this series, he's isn't.

The Lakers took the Celtics to 7 games and made it a tight game until the final buzzer. And Magic was averaging almost a triple double on that series (18/8/14) with a great TS% of .612, higher than Finals MVP, Larry Bird. Choke? Maybe but far from quitting. Seems like people can't differentiate the two. Who's distorting history now?

Magic got scrutinized for not winning, not for the lack of effort. Find me a publication where they imply Magic quit?

And you seem to not get my argument. It's not about having a bad series. It's about having a bad effort. Taking the Celtics into 7 games is not a bad effort, especially with the efficiency Magic had. Kyrie, on the other hand, chucked ill-advised jumpers, killing ball movement and jogs back in transition while his defensive assignment blows him by. He's playing like he doesn't care. And the worst thing is, it's not just a single game.

There's a plenty to blame around, sure. From Danny Ainge's inability to find a big man who would compliment the team. Brad Stevens for not establishing roles within the team, the young guys (particularly Tatum and Rozier) for playing selfishly and Hayward not being mentally recovered. But Kyrie is the major part of the problem. You can't claim to be their leader or savior and then just quit in the middle of the war.

Watch this clip and see how Kyrie plays nonchalantly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBsqfkBmYE&t=138s

[Never Nervous Pervis]

IT was scrutinized for his Brinks truck comments, but that's another thing. People know IT is tough as nails and is ready to die in war with you. I can't say the same with Kyrie. And judging this series, he's isn't.

How quickly people forget IT's first year in green, when he shot 33% from the field, 16.9% from 3, and averaged 3.5 turnovers a game as the Celtics got swept by the Cavs 4-0 in the first round of the playoffs.

Find me a publication where they imply Magic quit?

Magic has quit on the Lakers at least four times, twice as a player (once when he announced he had HIV), once abruptly as a coach, and most recently as an exec.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-11-03-mn-1244-story.html

Again, people remember what they want to remember.

[MaxAMillion]

IT was scrutinized for his Brinks truck comments, but that's another thing. People know IT is tough as nails and is ready to die in war with you. I can't say the same with Kyrie. And judging this series, he's isn't.

How quickly people forget IT's first year in green, when he shot 33% from the field, 16.9% from 3, and averaged 3.5 turnovers a game as the Celtics got swept by the Cavs 4-0 in the first round of the playoffs.

Find me a publication where they imply Magic quit?

Magic has quit on the Lakers at least four times, twice as a player (once when he announced he had HIV), once abruptly as a coach, and most recently as an exec.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-11-03-mn-1244-story.html

Again, people remember what they want to remember.

Well you can certainly find some where Kobe quit. There was the playoff game 7 where Kobe refused to shoot. He wanted to make a point and decided to submarine his own team's chances of winning. People conveniently forget all of the negative actions of former great players when trying to demonize Kyrie and act as if he should never see the court again. Players come back from bad performances all the time. I suspect Ainge (being a former player) understands that well.

[nickagneta]

I think the OP brings up a good point. Sometimes teams, even teams with great players, struggle through a year or years in the post season before finally breaking through for their championship glory. The 1980's and 90's Pistons and Bulls are a great example of this. So are the Lebron teams he won titles on. Both Miami and Cleveland struggled with losses in the Finals before returning as pretty much the same teams and won championships. So yes, the premise is sound that sometimes even the best teams need time and perhaps gel into a championship team.

That said, there are way more examples of teams that look like they should be title contending teams but struggled through years to reach their zenith in the playoffs and never could. This iteration of the Celtics looks and feels more like ne of these teams than a team on the cusp of a title that might just need their core to play longer together.

No, this version of the Celtics couldn't win a title. They need a change to their core. That's why a Davis trade and Kyrie returning makes the most sense. That team/core can win a title or titles once they learn to play with each other.

[Never Nervous Pervis]

IT was scrutinized for his Brinks truck comments, but that's another thing. People know IT is tough as nails and is ready to die in war with you. I can't say the same with Kyrie. And judging this series, he's isn't.

How quickly people forget IT's first year in green, when he shot 33% from the field, 16.9% from 3, and averaged 3.5 turnovers a game as the Celtics got swept by the Cavs 4-0 in the first round of the playoffs.

Find me a publication where they imply Magic quit?

Magic has quit on the Lakers at least four times, twice as a player (once when he announced he had HIV), once abruptly as a coach, and most recently as an exec.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-11-03-mn-1244-story.html

Again, people remember what they want to remember.

Well you can certainly find some where Kobe quit. There was the playoff game 7 where Kobe refused to shoot. He wanted to make a point and decided to submarine his own team's chances of winning. People conveniently forget all of the negative actions of former great players when trying to demonize Kyrie and act as if he should never see the court again. Players come back from bad performances all the time. I suspect Ainge (being a former player) understands that well.

Totally! Even Paul Pierce was demonized in 2004-2005 after getting ejected at the end of a close playoff game in Indiana for pushing Jamaal Tinsley, then proceeded to take off his jersey and swing it around while walking off the court.  Afterward he showed up at the postgame press conference sarcastically wearing a bandage on his face (Pierce's lowest point in green), and fans/media were ready to ship him out of town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=yroYIQiAQyI

[LarBrd33]

We didn't fail in 2019.

We overachieved in 2018.

On paper, this is a 49 win 2nd round exit roster.

[Celtics4ever]

We overachieved in 2018.

On paper, this is a 49 win 2nd round exit roster.

No one really thought that though, they thought we the team to beat at the beginning of the year as the year wore on definitely though.

[LarBrd33]

We overachieved in 2018.

On paper, this is a 49 win 2nd round exit roster.

No one really thought that though, they thought we the team to beat at the beginning of the year as the year wore on definitely though.

WHo cares what they thought at the beginning of the year.

At halftime of our first game two seasons ago, Charles Barkley said our season was over.   By that measure, 49 wins and a 2nd round exit is pretty solid.

[mr. dee]

IT was scrutinized for his Brinks truck comments, but that's another thing. People know IT is tough as nails and is ready to die in war with you. I can't say the same with Kyrie. And judging this series, he's isn't.

How quickly people forget IT's first year in green, when he shot 33% from the field, 16.9% from 3, and averaged 3.5 turnovers a game as the Celtics got swept by the Cavs 4-0 in the first round of the playoffs. That was before IT bulked up and became face of the franchise. People also forget he wasn't even a starter around that time.

Find me a publication where they imply Magic quit?

Magic has quit on the Lakers at least four times, twice as a player (once when he announced he had HIV), once abruptly as a coach, and most recently as an exec.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-11-03-mn-1244-story.html

Again, people remember what they want to remember.

Well you can certainly find some where Kobe quit. There was the playoff game 7 where Kobe refused to shoot. He wanted to make a point and decided to submarine his own team's chances of winning. People conveniently forget all of the negative actions of former great players when trying to demonize Kyrie and act as if he should never see the court again. Players come back from bad performances all the time. I suspect Ainge (being a former player) understands that well.

Totally! Even Paul Pierce was demonized in 2004-2005 after getting ejected at the end of a close playoff game in Indiana for pushing Jamaal Tinsley, then proceeded to take off his jersey and swing it around while walking off the court.  Afterward he showed up at the postgame press conference sarcastically wearing a bandage on his face (Pierce's lowest point in green), and fans/media were ready to ship him out of town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=yroYIQiAQyI

Keyword: Ejected. Kyrie was neither ejected or injured. It was a heat of the moment. I will applaud Kyrie if he actually shown that kind of emotion in a playoff game. Paul showed immaturity, no doubt. But he have shown emotions. That's a different type of quitting. Even then, they forced the Pacers into game 7. Effort is still there.

Kobe forced a game 7 against the heavily favored Suns too. That itself was effort. Now if you told me otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. You're just gonna nitpick single games as a small sample anyway, not the entire series or season.

Using Magic quitting with HIV and as an executive as an argument, really? We are talking about playing perspective. What's next? Larry Bird quit because his back gave up or because he lost Paul George as a GM? LOL

As for IT, no one was expecting anything from him around that time. And no, he didn't quit. The team was simply out talented and outmatched. He wasn't even a starter at that time. Did you actually watched that series? 3 out for the 4 games were decided by single digits despite the sweep.

Watch how animated IT was in that series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Z4PkYBBcM

His stats may have sucked, but he's there ready to defend his teammate.

You cannot really tell me that the Bucks were more talented than the Celtics. Better coached? Yeah. More talented individually? That's debatable. Outside Giannis and Middleton, the Celtics are more well rounded. That's like telling me George Hill and Pat Connaughton are more talented than Kyrie and Tatum.