"MVP or Bust" Timeline

[mbsnmisc]

The Celtics currently have an MVP caliber type of player in Kyrie Irving. I understand he has struggled the past few games and everyone is dragging his name through the mud. However, he is still a great player. This season, he averaged a career high in rebounds and assists to go along with 24 ppg. If he makes a slight adjustment to accepting contact, and not avoiding it, he could potentially add another 3 trips to the free throw line for an additional 6 points. He needs to figure out how he can get those superstar calls, where he starts to get around 8 free throw attempts per game consistently.

But I do agree, Danny needs to go after Anthony Davis. I feel like the potential to trade for Davis has kept Danny from making any moves these past two seasons, as far as making trades to help improve the team. My dream scenario is to re-sign Irving and trade for Davis. I just want the Davis saga over with.

I am not here to further demean Irving, but he is not close to being an MVP candidate. He has never received a single MVP vote. His only accomplishment based award is one third-team All NBA. He will probably be third team again this year.

I know people think we will be worse next year if Irving walks. In a vacuum, that could be true. Luckily DRA doesn't operate in a world where you cannot make deals, draft new players, and generally take other teams lunch money. Danny tackled Tree Rollins with no fear, I trust him to have the Celtics in contention next year, with or without Uncle Drew.

[seancally]

The Celtics currently have an MVP caliber type of player in Kyrie Irving. I understand he has struggled the past few games and everyone is dragging his name through the mud. However, he is still a great player. This season, he averaged a career high in rebounds and assists to go along with 24 ppg. If he makes a slight adjustment to accepting contact, and not avoiding it, he could potentially add another 3 trips to the free throw line for an additional 6 points. He needs to figure out how he can get those superstar calls, where he starts to get around 8 free throw attempts per game consistently.

But I do agree, Danny needs to go after Anthony Davis. I feel like the potential to trade for Davis has kept Danny from making any moves these past two seasons, as far as making trades to help improve the team. My dream scenario is to re-sign Irving and trade for Davis. I just want the Davis saga over with.

Irving isn't on that level for me.

He's not a leader.

His offense doesn't really make things easier for teammates because his main skill is hitting bad shots with relatively high efficiency.  He doesn't really bend an opponents defense because he's going to take the kinds of shots the other team wants him to take. He doesn't pressure an opponent inside or get anybody in foul trouble.

On the defensive end he's neutral at best, and often a negative.

This is probably not the time to make the Kyrie-as-MVP case, but...

If the idea is potential MVPs, there is precedent and path for Kyrie to do it. If the celtics have a great season, Kyrie approaches/surpasses 50/40/90 (this season he was 48/40/87) and/or has an explosive scoring season (28+ppg) he'll garner MVP conversations. Heck, if the C's had surpassed 60 wins and Kyrie had his exact same statistical season, he'd have been in the conversation. Obviously, he was also a big part of why we under-performed due to his leadership issues, supposedly.

The defense thing is overblown for MVP. Steph was a mediocre defender. So is Harden.

[Chris22]

The Celtics currently have an MVP caliber type of player in Kyrie Irving. I understand he has struggled the past few games and everyone is dragging his name through the mud. However, he is still a great player. This season, he averaged a career high in rebounds and assists to go along with 24 ppg. If he makes a slight adjustment to accepting contact, and not avoiding it, he could potentially add another 3 trips to the free throw line for an additional 6 points. He needs to figure out how he can get those superstar calls, where he starts to get around 8 free throw attempts per game consistently.

But I do agree, Danny needs to go after Anthony Davis. I feel like the potential to trade for Davis has kept Danny from making any moves these past two seasons, as far as making trades to help improve the team. My dream scenario is to re-sign Irving and trade for Davis. I just want the Davis saga over with.

Irving isn't on that level for me.

He's not a leader.

His offense doesn't really make things easier for teammates because his main skill is hitting bad shots with relatively high efficiency.  He doesn't really bend an opponents defense because he's going to take the kinds of shots the other team wants him to take. He doesn't pressure an opponent inside or get anybody in foul trouble.

On the defensive end he's neutral at best, and often a negative.

This is probably not the time to make the Kyrie-as-MVP case, but...

If the idea is potential MVPs, there is precedent and path for Kyrie to do it. If the celtics have a great season, Kyrie approaches/surpasses 50/40/90 (this season he was 48/40/87) and/or has an explosive scoring season (28+ppg) he'll garner MVP conversations. Heck, if the C's had surpassed 60 wins and Kyrie had his exact same statistical season, he'd have been in the conversation. Obviously, he was also a big part of why we under-performed due to his leadership issues, supposedly.

The defense thing is overblown for MVP. Steph was a mediocre defender. So is Harden.

Harden never won a championship. Steph has never been the MVP of the Finals.

[celticsclay]

The Celtics currently have an MVP caliber type of player in Kyrie Irving. I understand he has struggled the past few games and everyone is dragging his name through the mud. However, he is still a great player. This season, he averaged a career high in rebounds and assists to go along with 24 ppg. If he makes a slight adjustment to accepting contact, and not avoiding it, he could potentially add another 3 trips to the free throw line for an additional 6 points. He needs to figure out how he can get those superstar calls, where he starts to get around 8 free throw attempts per game consistently.

But I do agree, Danny needs to go after Anthony Davis. I feel like the potential to trade for Davis has kept Danny from making any moves these past two seasons, as far as making trades to help improve the team. My dream scenario is to re-sign Irving and trade for Davis. I just want the Davis saga over with.

I am not here to further demean Irving, but he is not close to being an MVP candidate. He has never received a single MVP vote. His only accomplishment based award is one third-team All NBA. He will probably be third team again this year.

I know people think we will be worse next year if Irving walks. In a vacuum, that could be true. Luckily DRA doesn't operate in a world where you cannot make deals, draft new players, and generally take other teams lunch money. Danny tackled Tree Rollins with no fear, I trust him to have the Celtics in contention next year, with or without Uncle Drew.

He is probably all second team this year.

[RJ87]

The Celtics currently have an MVP caliber type of player in Kyrie Irving. I understand he has struggled the past few games and everyone is dragging his name through the mud. However, he is still a great player. This season, he averaged a career high in rebounds and assists to go along with 24 ppg. If he makes a slight adjustment to accepting contact, and not avoiding it, he could potentially add another 3 trips to the free throw line for an additional 6 points. He needs to figure out how he can get those superstar calls, where he starts to get around 8 free throw attempts per game consistently.

But I do agree, Danny needs to go after Anthony Davis. I feel like the potential to trade for Davis has kept Danny from making any moves these past two seasons, as far as making trades to help improve the team. My dream scenario is to re-sign Irving and trade for Davis. I just want the Davis saga over with.

Irving isn't on that level for me.

He's not a leader.

His offense doesn't really make things easier for teammates because his main skill is hitting bad shots with relatively high efficiency.  He doesn't really bend an opponents defense because he's going to take the kinds of shots the other team wants him to take. He doesn't pressure an opponent inside or get anybody in foul trouble.

On the defensive end he's neutral at best, and often a negative.

This is probably not the time to make the Kyrie-as-MVP case, but...

If the idea is potential MVPs, there is precedent and path for Kyrie to do it. If the celtics have a great season, Kyrie approaches/surpasses 50/40/90 (this season he was 48/40/87) and/or has an explosive scoring season (28+ppg) he'll garner MVP conversations. Heck, if the C's had surpassed 60 wins and Kyrie had his exact same statistical season, he'd have been in the conversation. Obviously, he was also a big part of why we under-performed due to his leadership issues, supposedly.

The defense thing is overblown for MVP. Steph was a mediocre defender. So is Harden.

Harden never won a championship. Steph has never been the MVP of the Finals.

If Finals MVP was less about storyline, Steph would have won over Iguodala in 2015. Just like I think Ray Allen had a better overall case in 2008 over Paul Pierce, but Pierce was a more warming story.

[jambr380]

Interesting post. I refuse to believe that we won't be acquiring AD until it doesn't happen. I think this will happen regardless of whether or not Irving re-signs (I really hope he stays).

If Irving leaves, however, then I believe DA will be in the market for a lower level star using whatever he has left as trade bait. Beal would be the ideal prize in this scenario, but I could see going after guys like Mike Conley or DeMar DeRozan as a way to entice AD to stay after his current contract. I imagine Hayward would be the main salary going out as AD would seemingly prefer to play with Al.

I could also see re-signing Rozier (I know) and Morris and hoping for the best or using their salaries in a mid-season trade for another upgrade.

The most important factor would be convincing AD to stay and Ainge would likely go all-in on putting a championship team on the floor, regardless of whether Irving re-signs here or not.

[PhoSita]

The Celtics currently have an MVP caliber type of player in Kyrie Irving. I understand he has struggled the past few games and everyone is dragging his name through the mud. However, he is still a great player. This season, he averaged a career high in rebounds and assists to go along with 24 ppg. If he makes a slight adjustment to accepting contact, and not avoiding it, he could potentially add another 3 trips to the free throw line for an additional 6 points. He needs to figure out how he can get those superstar calls, where he starts to get around 8 free throw attempts per game consistently.

But I do agree, Danny needs to go after Anthony Davis. I feel like the potential to trade for Davis has kept Danny from making any moves these past two seasons, as far as making trades to help improve the team. My dream scenario is to re-sign Irving and trade for Davis. I just want the Davis saga over with.

Irving isn't on that level for me.

He's not a leader.

His offense doesn't really make things easier for teammates because his main skill is hitting bad shots with relatively high efficiency.  He doesn't really bend an opponents defense because he's going to take the kinds of shots the other team wants him to take. He doesn't pressure an opponent inside or get anybody in foul trouble.

On the defensive end he's neutral at best, and often a negative.

This is probably not the time to make the Kyrie-as-MVP case, but...

If the idea is potential MVPs, there is precedent and path for Kyrie to do it. If the celtics have a great season, Kyrie approaches/surpasses 50/40/90 (this season he was 48/40/87) and/or has an explosive scoring season (28+ppg) he'll garner MVP conversations. Heck, if the C's had surpassed 60 wins and Kyrie had his exact same statistical season, he'd have been in the conversation. Obviously, he was also a big part of why we under-performed due to his leadership issues, supposedly.

The defense thing is overblown for MVP. Steph was a mediocre defender. So is Harden.

I agree that a MVP doesn't need to be a great defender.


But the effect that Curry has offensively with his amazing shooting creating space for teammates is unlike anything Kyrie does.

Similarly, the pressure that Harden puts on a defense with his step back threes and his prolific free throws are unlike anything Kyrie does.


Kyrie is a magician / assassin, at least when he's playing well.  That's a super valuable skillset to have when the game is close in crunch time.

I don't know if it really makes it easier for your teammates to get there shots and keep the offense going during the rest of the game.  I can't imagine that it provides the same kind of stability or confidence that knowing that Giannis, for example, can break a cold streak by powering his way to the basket and getting a dunk or free throws, often forcing double teams as he does so.

[Monkhouse]

I have to believe that if OKC busts once again, and Sam Presti is unwilling to pay for the exorbitant luxury tax bill, Westbrook and Paul George will be on the trade block. They both just had surgery, and their window is getting smaller. Giving Adams that max contract was just pure insanity. It really did end up crippling their finances and cap space. Giving max contract deals to Westbrook, George, and Adams is a sound big 3, but I have to believe at some point if they don't get past the 2nd round, how much longer Presti will wait.

I always wondered how far a big 3 of Irving, Davis, and George could go.

[Phantom255x]

I have to believe that if OKC busts once again, and Sam Presti is unwilling to pay for the exorbitant luxury tax bill, Westbrook and Paul George will be on the trade block. They both just had surgery, and their window is getting smaller. Giving Adams that max contract was just pure insanity. It really did end up crippling their finances and cap space. Giving max contract deals to Westbrook, George, and Adams is a sound big 3, but I have to believe at some point if they don't get past the 2nd round, how much longer Presti will wait.

I always wondered how far a big 3 of Irving, Davis, and George could go.

Just curious, but how could you pull that off? Trading for AD AND George I mean.

[Monkhouse]

I have to believe that if OKC busts once again, and Sam Presti is unwilling to pay for the exorbitant luxury tax bill, Westbrook and Paul George will be on the trade block. They both just had surgery, and their window is getting smaller. Giving Adams that max contract was just pure insanity. It really did end up crippling their finances and cap space. Giving max contract deals to Westbrook, George, and Adams is a sound big 3, but I have to believe at some point if they don't get past the 2nd round, how much longer Presti will wait.

I always wondered how far a big 3 of Irving, Davis, and George could go.

Just curious, but how could you pull that off? Trading for AD AND George I mean.

It would involve a lot of tinkering, Horford and Hayward would also have to be moved also. Ainge would need to re-sign some players to front loaded contracts to make up for cap filler, but it is certainly possible.

[jambr380]

I have to believe that if OKC busts once again, and Sam Presti is unwilling to pay for the exorbitant luxury tax bill, Westbrook and Paul George will be on the trade block. They both just had surgery, and their window is getting smaller. Giving Adams that max contract was just pure insanity. It really did end up crippling their finances and cap space. Giving max contract deals to Westbrook, George, and Adams is a sound big 3, but I have to believe at some point if they don't get past the 2nd round, how much longer Presti will wait.

I always wondered how far a big 3 of Irving, Davis, and George could go.

Just curious, but how could you pull that off? Trading for AD AND George I mean.

The framework for an AD deal would probably remain the same: Tatum, Smart, picks

A George deal might need to include a 3rd team - maybe Hayward going to CLE, and Jaylen Brown/Henson/JR Smith/pick(s) to OKC. That might sound light, but I am not sure what we will have left until after the AD deal is completed.

[Moranis]

Karl Anthony Towns?! He doesn't belong on this list right now.

I agree that he's not currently at that level, but he has the talent to reach that level, I think.  His raw numbers are already very good, it's a question of whether he can translate that into taking control of the game and leading his team on a regular basis.

Well by that logic we could trey young, or tatum, or heck, even whipping boy Ben Simmons. I think we have enough evidence at this point that Towns is more unlikely to reach that level than he is. It is definitely possible, I just don't think he is viewed on that same level by most GMs any more after being in the league for 4 years and not making any marked improvements on his team's wins.

I guess you're more down on towns than I am.

Don't get me wrong I have skepticism about him.  Seems like his team should be better. But we could say many of the same things about Davis.

I don't think Trae young or Ben Simmons will ever be at that level.


I'm interested to hear which players other people think belong on the list or shouldnt be on the list.



I do think that the odds are probably better if the goal is to acquire a player who hasn't yet realized his potential and then later achieves elite status on the Celtics, as opposed to adding a guy who is already at that level and is still in his prime.

Most of the time when MVP guys become available they are toward the end of their prime, this summer being an exception.

Well I don't think Lebron belongs on the list either. he may not even make all NBA 3rd team, and is 36 next season. I think he can still be a great player and get 25, 8, 5, but if he is putting up those numbers, he is playing crap defense. He also really needs to have his minutes monitored unlike anyone on this list besides Embid.  I don't really think anyone can think of players bouncing back to NBA MVPs at age 37 or age 38 etc. The oldest NBA MVPs in history were 35 I believe (Jordan, Malone). Given how much faster the pace is today and how much more complicated some of the schemes are, I don't think we will ever see an MVP at that age again.

you think Lebron is going to average 25/8/5 next year?  He hasn't had a 5 in either rebounds or assists since 5.5 rpg and 5.9 apg as a rookie, that was also the only season he averaged less than 25 in a season (though had 2 in Miami at 25.3 otherwise 26.4 is his low).  Lebron's defensive effort has been very bad, but he is still putting up incredible counting stats even at 34 (this year 27.4 p, 8.5 r, 8.3 a).  I just don't see him dropping off all that much next year, especially if the Lakers end up landing a 2nd star to pair with him. 

[Monkhouse]

I have to believe that if OKC busts once again, and Sam Presti is unwilling to pay for the exorbitant luxury tax bill, Westbrook and Paul George will be on the trade block. They both just had surgery, and their window is getting smaller. Giving Adams that max contract was just pure insanity. It really did end up crippling their finances and cap space. Giving max contract deals to Westbrook, George, and Adams is a sound big 3, but I have to believe at some point if they don't get past the 2nd round, how much longer Presti will wait.

I always wondered how far a big 3 of Irving, Davis, and George could go.

Just curious, but how could you pull that off? Trading for AD AND George I mean.

The framework for an AD deal would probably remain the same: Tatum, Smart, picks

A George deal might need to include a 3rd team - maybe Hayward going to CLE, and Jaylen Brown/Henson/JR Smith/pick(s) to OKC. That might sound light, but I am not sure what we will have left until after the AD deal is completed.

Pretty much what I was thinking. I was actually gonna say JR Smith would be a possible candidate that we could use, since it gives immediate cap relief next year.

LeBron's defense has declined, but you guys are acting like his defense is non-existent..

Watch this video, and you guys will see that while LeBron is aging, his defense is not even that bad... In fact, it's actually been better than last year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsxlu7nYdhU

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron's defense has declined, but you guys are acting like his defense is non-existent..

He is not jumping as high anymore and that could mean this legs are starting to go.   I think the end is in sight, he won't ever win another MVP.  The guard has changed to Giannis and Durant for now.