Author Topic: Off season thread  (Read 10737 times)

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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2019, 11:28:45 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I think whatever the approach is it has to be decisive. Plan A should be to go after Davis, get him and Kyrie looks better as the number two guy. Beyond that there is certainly stuff you have to figure like what to do with Hayward but getting the top 10 player has to be the first play. I do however have a limit, I'm not including both Tatum and Brown. This is in part because of how bad Hayward has looked in general this season, you can't give up both of your young wings on the HOPE that Hayward is better next year, because theres a chance he just isnt and never will be. And without him you arent good enough with just Kyrie and Davis.

If you can't or don't get Davis blow it up. That includes letting Kyrie walk, seeing if we can off load Hayward, and if that means Horford goes he goes. Force feed the young guys, use the draft picks on high upside guys and reset this. Because if you don't a big star this summer than all of a sudden Jaylen is up for an extension next summer, Horford is entering his age 33 year, Hayward may never be all star level again and most of your draft pick capital is now used (except for hopefully the MEM pick). Meaning that our avenues for getting another star through draft or trade have essentially expired. Force feed the young guys, see if they can be more than they were this year.
Trading both young players for Davis is hardly giving up on them.  It’s called giving up something to get something.  And I think both plus more would be needed to get Davis.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2019, 12:00:52 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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I think whatever the approach is it has to be decisive. Plan A should be to go after Davis, get him and Kyrie looks better as the number two guy. Beyond that there is certainly stuff you have to figure like what to do with Hayward but getting the top 10 player has to be the first play. I do however have a limit, I'm not including both Tatum and Brown. This is in part because of how bad Hayward has looked in general this season, you can't give up both of your young wings on the HOPE that Hayward is better next year, because theres a chance he just isnt and never will be. And without him you arent good enough with just Kyrie and Davis.

If you can't or don't get Davis blow it up. That includes letting Kyrie walk, seeing if we can off load Hayward, and if that means Horford goes he goes. Force feed the young guys, use the draft picks on high upside guys and reset this. Because if you don't a big star this summer than all of a sudden Jaylen is up for an extension next summer, Horford is entering his age 33 year, Hayward may never be all star level again and most of your draft pick capital is now used (except for hopefully the MEM pick). Meaning that our avenues for getting another star through draft or trade have essentially expired. Force feed the young guys, see if they can be more than they were this year.
Trading both young players for Davis is hardly giving up on them.  It’s called giving up something to get something.  And I think both plus more would be needed to get Davis.

I'm never said it would be giving up on them, I said I wouldn't give both of them up, ie I wouldn't trade both. I don't think we need too either. With LAL's assets essentially injured or diminished and nobody with the young players and draft assets we have I can't come up with a package that beats Tatum, Smart + some combination of Williams and picks.

If you disagree fine, but I don't see any reason to argue this point. Its entirely based off factors none of us can know.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2019, 12:05:49 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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If Kyrie re-signs, Ainge makes a push for AD.

But at this point, I figure it is unlikely that Kyrie stays so that means no AD. In that case, let Rozier/Morris walk. Focus on Brown/Tatum and what you can do to surround them with good veteran leaders.

Eh, I think this is a bit too pessimistic. Boston by far is the best place for him to win, and this is doubly true if we trade for AD in a fair trade package. What team can he realistically go to where he'll have a better chance of winning than Boston? Brooklyn? That's far from an ideal fit. New York? Doubtful, even with KD going there that's a lesser team than Boston, and he then lives in KD's shadow. At least in Boston he still has a claim of being "the man" over AD given that this was "his" team prior to trading for AD.

Still think he will wait to see about Davis before making any decision, though if we don't land AD I can definitely see him walking, and possibly even with Boston's support.

I think all this si true, at the same time Kyrie also gives off some "I'm miserable here" vibes to me at times. Whether its his leadership struggles, subtle jabs at Stevens, his insistence to "wait for the playoffs," ect, he just seems like someone who isnt happy right now. That makes me nervous.

On another note I think we have to at least consider that Hayward may not ever be the guy he once. I know people like to compare him to PG, and that is a reason to think he may be better next year with another summer separating  him form the injury. But A) I think we've seen pretty clearly that loss of athleticism resulting form the injury has hampered him and B) Paul George was 24 when he was injured, Hayward was 27, and not as athletic as Paul George was to begin with.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2019, 12:20:44 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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I think whatever the approach is it has to be decisive. Plan A should be to go after Davis, get him and Kyrie looks better as the number two guy. Beyond that there is certainly stuff you have to figure like what to do with Hayward but getting the top 10 player has to be the first play. I do however have a limit, I'm not including both Tatum and Brown. This is in part because of how bad Hayward has looked in general this season, you can't give up both of your young wings on the HOPE that Hayward is better next year, because theres a chance he just isnt and never will be. And without him you arent good enough with just Kyrie and Davis.

If you can't or don't get Davis blow it up. That includes letting Kyrie walk, seeing if we can off load Hayward, and if that means Horford goes he goes. Force feed the young guys, use the draft picks on high upside guys and reset this. Because if you don't a big star this summer than all of a sudden Jaylen is up for an extension next summer, Horford is entering his age 33 year, Hayward may never be all star level again and most of your draft pick capital is now used (except for hopefully the MEM pick). Meaning that our avenues for getting another star through draft or trade have essentially expired. Force feed the young guys, see if they can be more than they were this year.
Trading both young players for Davis is hardly giving up on them.  It’s called giving up something to get something.  And I think both plus more would be needed to get Davis.

I'm never said it would be giving up on them, I said I wouldn't give both of them up, ie I wouldn't trade both. I don't think we need too either. With LAL's assets essentially injured or diminished and nobody with the young players and draft assets we have I can't come up with a package that beats Tatum, Smart + some combination of Williams and picks.

If you disagree fine, but I don't see any reason to argue this point. Its entirely based off factors none of us can know.
I think a package that includes Doncic or Zion beats whatever we can offer.  My point?  You just never know.  Focusing on only the lakers probably isn’t the right view.  If I had to bed, I’d say that Davis has a better chance on ending up with a team that isn’t the lakers or the Celtics.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2019, 12:31:18 AM »

Offline CelticsElite

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I think whatever the approach is it has to be decisive. Plan A should be to go after Davis, get him and Kyrie looks better as the number two guy. Beyond that there is certainly stuff you have to figure like what to do with Hayward but getting the top 10 player has to be the first play. I do however have a limit, I'm not including both Tatum and Brown. This is in part because of how bad Hayward has looked in general this season, you can't give up both of your young wings on the HOPE that Hayward is better next year, because theres a chance he just isnt and never will be. And without him you arent good enough with just Kyrie and Davis.

If you can't or don't get Davis blow it up. That includes letting Kyrie walk, seeing if we can off load Hayward, and if that means Horford goes he goes. Force feed the young guys, use the draft picks on high upside guys and reset this. Because if you don't a big star this summer than all of a sudden Jaylen is up for an extension next summer, Horford is entering his age 33 year, Hayward may never be all star level again and most of your draft pick capital is now used (except for hopefully the MEM pick). Meaning that our avenues for getting another star through draft or trade have essentially expired. Force feed the young guys, see if they can be more than they were this year.
Trading both young players for Davis is hardly giving up on them.  It’s called giving up something to get something.  And I think both plus more would be needed to get Davis.

I'm never said it would be giving up on them, I said I wouldn't give both of them up, ie I wouldn't trade both. I don't think we need too either. With LAL's assets essentially injured or diminished and nobody with the young players and draft assets we have I can't come up with a package that beats Tatum, Smart + some combination of Williams and picks.

If you disagree fine, but I don't see any reason to argue this point. Its entirely based off factors none of us can know.
I think a package that includes Doncic or Zion beats whatever we can offer.  My point?  You just never know.  Focusing on only the lakers probably isn’t the right view.  If I had to bed, I’d say that Davis has a better chance on ending up with a team that isn’t the lakers or the Celtics.
no one is trading doncic for a rental of Davis

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2019, 12:41:39 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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I think whatever the approach is it has to be decisive. Plan A should be to go after Davis, get him and Kyrie looks better as the number two guy. Beyond that there is certainly stuff you have to figure like what to do with Hayward but getting the top 10 player has to be the first play. I do however have a limit, I'm not including both Tatum and Brown. This is in part because of how bad Hayward has looked in general this season, you can't give up both of your young wings on the HOPE that Hayward is better next year, because theres a chance he just isnt and never will be. And without him you arent good enough with just Kyrie and Davis.

If you can't or don't get Davis blow it up. That includes letting Kyrie walk, seeing if we can off load Hayward, and if that means Horford goes he goes. Force feed the young guys, use the draft picks on high upside guys and reset this. Because if you don't a big star this summer than all of a sudden Jaylen is up for an extension next summer, Horford is entering his age 33 year, Hayward may never be all star level again and most of your draft pick capital is now used (except for hopefully the MEM pick). Meaning that our avenues for getting another star through draft or trade have essentially expired. Force feed the young guys, see if they can be more than they were this year.
Trading both young players for Davis is hardly giving up on them.  It’s called giving up something to get something.  And I think both plus more would be needed to get Davis.

I'm never said it would be giving up on them, I said I wouldn't give both of them up, ie I wouldn't trade both. I don't think we need too either. With LAL's assets essentially injured or diminished and nobody with the young players and draft assets we have I can't come up with a package that beats Tatum, Smart + some combination of Williams and picks.

If you disagree fine, but I don't see any reason to argue this point. Its entirely based off factors none of us can know.
I think a package that includes Doncic or Zion beats whatever we can offer.  My point?  You just never know.  Focusing on only the lakers probably isn’t the right view.  If I had to bed, I’d say that Davis has a better chance on ending up with a team that isn’t the lakers or the Celtics.
no one is trading doncic for a rental of Davis

Yeah, not sure why he keeps touting this as an example, as it’s simply not based in reality. That makes literally no sense for Dallas right now.

The only real realistic scenarios that I can see potentially beating us are (1) NYK getting the first pick and offering everything possible for Davis, though I still think our godfather offer beats that for David Griffin, and (2) LAL magically getting the 1 pick and adding it to their previous offer, which I think probably beats our godfather offer.

Both of those are very unlikely to happen given the lottery odds, which is good news for us. Any other team and context just doesn’t make sense to try and trade for Davis, either due to limited assets, limited prospects for winning after the trade, or not being a desirable location long-term. Philly would be interesting, but with Butler abd Harris in free agency they’re essentially out of the market until they decide, which is likely too late by that point.
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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2019, 12:47:39 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Eh, I'm sure pretty much everyone is not in denial about the Bucks being the better team.

The offseason can't come soon enough.  I hope game 5 is the last time we see Rozier in a Celtics jersey.



Kyrie, Rozier, Morris


I do not need to see any of those three play a game in a Celtics jersey again.

It's not even hard feelings at this point, I just want a fresh start.
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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2019, 12:48:33 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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What I want:

- Kyrie signs with some other team that will deal with his antics and be disappointed by his performances when it matters.

- Ainge makes some savvy draft day deals but does not trade all the assets for a one year rental of AD

- Horford opts out and re-signs a 3-4 year deal at a reasonable figure.

- Baynes opts out and signs elsewhere

- Rozier signs for 4 yrs / 40 million (trade bait in 6 months)

- Marcus Morris signs elsewhere



What will happen:

- Ainge will go all-out for AD and then try to convince Kyrie to re-sign

- I will worry all summer long that next season will be an emotional sequel to this season.
God I hate your "want" regarding Rozier. Even if we wanted him to be trade bait we could end up stuck with him. I think I'd ignore the Celtics until he was gone



I don't really want him around anymore, but I think the smart thing to do in light of Kyrie leaving would be to sign Rozier to a decent deal and then try to trade him next season.
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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2019, 01:13:18 AM »

Offline ozgod

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I think everything should be questioned as part of the post mortem of this season.

- Is this team ever going to gel together? They had a whole year to do so and haven't
- there is no playoff switch - you need the regular season to develop the chemistry and habits that you will lean on during the playoffs. Need players who care about regular season games, not those who think the regular season is something to endure to get to the playoffs
- is Kyrie the right leader for this team? Can he inspire people? Is his style of play conducive to the way the team needs to play?
- is Brad the right coach for this team? Is his positionless basketball philosophy the way to go with the players we have?
- Are JB and JT as good as we thought they were?
- Will Gordon ever get back to being "Utah Gordon"? Is he being used the right way?
- will introducing AD into the mix help things? Can he and Kyrie coexist?

Those are just a few of the questions I have off the top of my head.
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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2019, 01:21:26 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think everything should be questioned as part of the post mortem of this season.

- Is this team ever going to gel together? They had a whole year to do so and haven't
- there is no playoff switch - you need the regular season to develop the chemistry and habits that you will lean on during the playoffs. Need players who care about regular season games, not those who think the regular season is something to endure to get to the playoffs
- is Kyrie the right leader for this team? Can he inspire people? Is his style of play conducive to the way the team needs to play?
- is Brad the right coach for this team? Is his positionless basketball philosophy the way to go with the players we have?
- Are JB and JT as good as we thought they were?
- Will Gordon ever get back to being "Utah Gordon"? Is he being used the right way?
- will introducing AD into the mix help things? Can he and Kyrie coexist?

Those are just a few of the questions I have off the top of my head.

This version of the team is not going to gel.

100% agreed about getting players who are consistently available to play and who bring focus and energy throughout the season.

Kyrie isn't a leader, period.

Brad is a good coach, better than whoever they could find to replace him. He needs a different group of players. More balance less ego.

JB and JT can be as good as we hope but they need more time and a team that's focused on helping them get there.

Gordon will never be Utah Gordon but he'll be better after a full offseason and should be featured as the main playmaker for the second unit next season.

Trading all the assets for AD won't fix what's wrong with this team.
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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2019, 01:38:31 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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I think whatever the approach is it has to be decisive. Plan A should be to go after Davis, get him and Kyrie looks better as the number two guy. Beyond that there is certainly stuff you have to figure like what to do with Hayward but getting the top 10 player has to be the first play. I do however have a limit, I'm not including both Tatum and Brown. This is in part because of how bad Hayward has looked in general this season, you can't give up both of your young wings on the HOPE that Hayward is better next year, because theres a chance he just isnt and never will be. And without him you arent good enough with just Kyrie and Davis.

If you can't or don't get Davis blow it up. That includes letting Kyrie walk, seeing if we can off load Hayward, and if that means Horford goes he goes. Force feed the young guys, use the draft picks on high upside guys and reset this. Because if you don't a big star this summer than all of a sudden Jaylen is up for an extension next summer, Horford is entering his age 33 year, Hayward may never be all star level again and most of your draft pick capital is now used (except for hopefully the MEM pick). Meaning that our avenues for getting another star through draft or trade have essentially expired. Force feed the young guys, see if they can be more than they were this year.
Trading both young players for Davis is hardly giving up on them.  It’s called giving up something to get something.  And I think both plus more would be needed to get Davis.

I'm never said it would be giving up on them, I said I wouldn't give both of them up, ie I wouldn't trade both. I don't think we need too either. With LAL's assets essentially injured or diminished and nobody with the young players and draft assets we have I can't come up with a package that beats Tatum, Smart + some combination of Williams and picks.

If you disagree fine, but I don't see any reason to argue this point. Its entirely based off factors none of us can know.
I think a package that includes Doncic or Zion beats whatever we can offer.  My point?  You just never know.  Focusing on only the lakers probably isn’t the right view.  If I had to bed, I’d say that Davis has a better chance on ending up with a team that isn’t the lakers or the Celtics.
no one is trading doncic for a rental of Davis

Yeah, not sure why he keeps touting this as an example, as it’s simply not based in reality. That makes literally no sense for Dallas right now.

The only real realistic scenarios that I can see potentially beating us are (1) NYK getting the first pick and offering everything possible for Davis, though I still think our godfather offer beats that for David Griffin, and (2) LAL magically getting the 1 pick and adding it to their previous offer, which I think probably beats our godfather offer.

Both of those are very unlikely to happen given the lottery odds, which is good news for us. Any other team and context just doesn’t make sense to try and trade for Davis, either due to limited assets, limited prospects for winning after the trade, or not being a desirable location long-term. Philly would be interesting, but with Butler abd Harris in free agency they’re essentially out of the market until they decide, which is likely too late by that point.
I thought I was fairly clear?  I keep bringing up Doncic for two reasons.  First, to show that their are easily packages that could beat what the celts can offer.  But more importantly, because I would bet that the package and ends up netting Davis is something fans haven’t even dreamed up yet.  Just like what it took to get Kawhi, just like what it took to get George.  Hell, just like what it took to get Kyrie.

The thought that the celts somehow have leverage on the pelicans is not based on reality.  There will be PLENTY of suitors for Davis.  I’ll take the field over the Lakers and Celtics thank you very much.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2019, 01:40:34 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I think the plan is getting Davis and keeping kyrie.  I hope we keep Tatum, but I’m not optimistic.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2019, 01:42:25 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'd rather keep Jaylen than Tatum if we trade for AD, think he's a better fit.
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Re: Off season thread
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2019, 01:43:17 AM »

Offline blink

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I think everything should be questioned as part of the post mortem of this season.

- Is this team ever going to gel together? They had a whole year to do so and haven't
- there is no playoff switch - you need the regular season to develop the chemistry and habits that you will lean on during the playoffs. Need players who care about regular season games, not those who think the regular season is something to endure to get to the playoffs
- is Kyrie the right leader for this team? Can he inspire people? Is his style of play conducive to the way the team needs to play?
- is Brad the right coach for this team? Is his positionless basketball philosophy the way to go with the players we have?
- Are JB and JT as good as we thought they were?
- Will Gordon ever get back to being "Utah Gordon"? Is he being used the right way?
- will introducing AD into the mix help things? Can he and Kyrie coexist?

Those are just a few of the questions I have off the top of my head.

This version of the team is not going to gel.

100% agreed about getting players who are consistently available to play and who bring focus and energy throughout the season.

Kyrie isn't a leader, period.

Brad is a good coach, better than whoever they could find to replace him. He needs a different group of players. More balance less ego.

JB and JT can be as good as we hope but they need more time and a team that's focused on helping them get there.

Gordon will never be Utah Gordon but he'll be better after a full offseason and should be featured as the main playmaker for the second unit next season.

Trading all the assets for AD won't fix what's wrong with this team.

I agree with literally everything you said.

Re: Off season thread
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2019, 01:43:35 AM »

Offline blink

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I'd rather keep Jaylen than Tatum if we trade for AD, think he's a better fit.

+1 100%