Can you win a championship with horrible bench?

[ManUp]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

[gouki88]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

I'd argue that Powe and Tony Allen were both solid reserves

[mmmmm]

Glen Davis didn't actually contribute that much to the 2008 playoff run.  He played a mere 137 minutes across 17 games in those playoffs.  He emerged as more of a rotation member in the subsequent seasons.

Eddie House is also being misremembered.  He played only a little bit more than Big Baby in those playoffs, just 167 minutes.   He also became more prominent in the subsequent seasons.

In that 2008 playoff run, the real important bench players were Posey, PJ Brown, Leon Powe and Sam Cassell.  Those guys got a ton more minutes and were simply much more critical.  Sam played the least of them and even he got 264 minutes.   Powe, of course, had a key performance during the Finals that will always be the signature of his oh-too-short career.

People tend to remember Big Baby and Eddie because they both played larger roles with the team in the following years.  But neither was nearly as important as those other 4 guys to the 2008 playoff run.

[gpap]

So at least two teams that are expected to make the second round seem to have objectively awful benches (especially in light of Cousins injury)

The Warriors are going to have the following as their significant bench players:

Iggy (35 years old, 5.7ppg this year)
Bogut (returning to league for first time in two seasons, age 34)
Livingston (33 years old, 4ppg this season)
Cook (seems like solid bench guard)

Assuming Looney still plays, not sure who else is playing.

The 76ers are playing a bit stronger, but not sure how highly these guys have been viewed around the league:
Mike Scott
Bobo
Ennis
Bolden

How much do you think these benches matter for winning a championship?

What's there not to like about a bench featuring two guys named Bobo and Bolden?

[SparzWizard]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

I'd argue that Powe and Tony Allen were both solid reserves

Oh yeah I totally forgot about them! Wasn't Tony Allen dubbed as the Kobe and LeBron stopper back in the days.

Also, Powe was huge esp when KG went down in 2009. Filled in the void for him. If only he remained healthy throughout that run we'd have a shot at the Finals that year.

[ManUp]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

I'd argue that Powe and Tony Allen were both solid reserves

Like I said Serviceable.

Powe was a garbage man hustler and effort type. Tony Allen was super inconsistent and not yet the grind father, he averaged 6 minutes per game in the finals and only played in 3 games. Sam Cassel and PJ Brown were both washed up vets and only got the opportunity because of our lack of quality on the bench. The 08 team was super top heavy.

[celticsclay]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

I'd argue that Powe and Tony Allen were both solid reserves

Like I said Serviceable.

Powe was a garbage man hustler and effort type. Tony Allen was super inconsistent and not yet the grind father, he averaged 6 minutes per game in the finals and only played in 3 games. Sam Cassel and PJ Brown were both washed up vets and only got the opportunity because of our lack of quality on the bench. The 08 team was super top heavy.

Allen was an outstanding player as was posey. Comparing that to 35 year old iggy, washed Livingston and cook kind of proves my point.

[LarBrd33]

What teams have won a title because of their bench?  It's always about star power. 

Golden State should coast to a title.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Y’all have some pretty Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.in high standards for *bench* players.

[ManUp]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

I'd argue that Powe and Tony Allen were both solid reserves

Like I said Serviceable.

Powe was a garbage man hustler and effort type. Tony Allen was super inconsistent and not yet the grind father, he averaged 6 minutes per game in the finals and only played in 3 games. Sam Cassel and PJ Brown were both washed up vets and only got the opportunity because of our lack of quality on the bench. The 08 team was super top heavy.

Allen was an outstanding player as was posey. Comparing that to 35 year old iggy, washed Livingston and cook kind of proves my point.

In 2007-08 the year we won the championship, Tony Allen averaged 4 minutes per game in the play-offs. He was not the guy you are remembering yet. Instead of romanticising the past look up the numbers.

The 2008 Celtics had a weak bench made up of young nobodies and washed up vets. Even Rondo and Perk were average starters at best. Or are we going to pretend Rondo was an all-star by his second year too?

Posey was our only real quality reserve.

[celticsclay]

Yes, the 2008 Celtics did

James Posey was our only quality reserve.

Everyone else was just serviceable

Eddie House and Glen Davis?

Eddie House was a vet min guy who's only NBA skill was his elite shooting.

Glen Davis was a 2nd round draft pick rookie.

I'd argue that Powe and Tony Allen were both solid reserves

Like I said Serviceable.

Powe was a garbage man hustler and effort type. Tony Allen was super inconsistent and not yet the grind father, he averaged 6 minutes per game in the finals and only played in 3 games. Sam Cassel and PJ Brown were both washed up vets and only got the opportunity because of our lack of quality on the bench. The 08 team was super top heavy.

Allen was an outstanding player as was posey. Comparing that to 35 year old iggy, washed Livingston and cook kind of proves my point.

In 2007-08 the year we won the championship, Tony Allen averaged 4 minutes per game in the play-offs. He was not the guy you are remembering yet. Instead of romanticising the past look up the numbers.

The 2008 Celtics had a weak bench made up of young nobodies and washed up vets. Even Rondo and Perk were average starters at best. Or are we going to pretend Rondo was an all-star by his second year too?

Posey was our only real quality reserve.

Sorry got years confused. Pj Brown was great in his minutes that year and it looks like he had among the highest plus minus on the team.

[celticsclay]

What teams have won a title because of their bench?  It's always about star power. 

Golden State should coast to a title.

I think the league is moving in a different direction. The rockets went shot for shot with warriors last year and most agree would have beat them with Paul. Warriors 4 stars. Rockets 2. Celtics made ecf with zero stars. Most expect bucks to make finals this year with one star and great role players and a deep bench. Most consider the 76ers to have either 3 or 4 stars. I would be shocked if bucks didn’t beat them if they play.

[Who]

2008 Celtics had an underrated bench because of it's depth and versatility. If you just look at them as individuals, it is unimpressive outside of Posey. But if you look at them in terms of offering different skill-sets and allowing Doc to adjust to different situations on the floor, the bench added real value beyond just who they were as an individual.

Cassell = ball-handling, floor general
House = sniper, streaky scorer
TA = defensive stopper
Posey = 6th man = defensive minded combo forward who allowed Boston to stay big on the perimeter or go small with Posey at PF and play with more speed. Plus rebounder. Outside shooter. Cutter. One of the best 6th men in the league.
Powe = hustle big who can score and rebound
PJ Brown = defensive big
Glen Davis = big body at 6-7 280lbs, offers differ defensive options
Scalabrine = stretch 4. Team D and shooting.


It was a bench that was more than the sum of it's parts because of the versatility it offered.

Look at Cassell being needed to handle the ball against Lindsey Hunter's pressure defense in the Conference Finals because of House's limited PG skills. Or his veteran savvy against Cleveland because of Rondo's up and down play as a starter. To moving House back into the rotation in the Finals because of LA's so-so guard defense which allowed Boston to get House's superior shooting and scoring back on the court.

It was this versatility that gave the coaching staff extra value.

Boston was 12-13 men deep. Guys who could be called on in a playoff game and relied on to contribute in some way. In different ways.

Their bench was not impressive 7th man through 10th man. It was that extra depth and versatility that was impressive. There was real value there. That is why I think it is an underrated group.

[Who]

What teams have won a title because of their bench?  It's always about star power. 

Golden State should coast to a title.

What is it win shares that says = 80% of the wins come from your top 3 players and the other guys contribute the remaining 20%.

So yes, I agree teams win because of their star talent ... but they can fail to win despite having star talent because their supporting cast is not adequate.

Not having a bench can cost you a title.

Also, really bad benches not only fail to contribute positively but actively contribute negatively and make your team worse. So not only are you not getting your 20%, or even breaking even at 0%, they are actively hurting you and giving you -5-10% contributions = although you see this most often on the worst teams in the league (like New York Knicks this year) rather than playoff teams.

[Celtics4ever]

Most of LBJ's teams had mediocre benches

This coupled with LeBron tendency to defer gave them his championship record is bad and not medicore.