Privileged by Kyle Korver (Merged)

[Roy H.]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

I think this statement is hard to qualify.  Also, it doesn't do much for the discussion at hand.  When examining the effect of an explanatory variable, you need control for confounding variables.  Of course class plays a role in privilege, but it is not the only factor.  This particular discussion is about the effect of race.  All things being equal, do you believe that it is not an advantage to be white?  Also, do you believe that race is not an issue for wealthy minorities?

Why wouldn’t class be relevant to the discussion at hand?

I think I acknowledged that all things being equal, it’s an advantage to be white in our society. But, how often are all things equal? I think that class still is the biggest roadblock in America.  I’d much rather be a wealthy minority than a non-wealthy white, even while acknowledging that being wealthy and white is at the top of the privilege pyramid.

[KGs Knee]

I refuse to be defined by my race, gender, sexual orientation, creed, financial status, or any other 'label'.  I bear no responsibility for the actions of others and carry no such guilt for any transgression I did not commit.  To do so would be folly, as taking responsibility for actions that I had no part in serves as nothing more than an enabling mechanism for those that continue to seek to divide us with 'labels'.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Korver with some very insightful thoughts on privilege.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba

what a load of propaganda and fake news he wrote

What privilege? Hes a minority in the NBA. Jeremy lin insinuated he was discriminated against during the draft process because he wasn't black. White privilege is a myth

Majority of NBA owners are white, and Lin went undrafted despite decent numbers at Harvard; simply because he was Asian.

He has also been called many racist degregoratory names on road games. New York even made that distratous headline, "A Chink in the Armor," when Linsanity was happening against Kobe Byrant.

Do we know (as much as we can "know") that Lin went undrafted because of anti-Asian bias? I'm wondering because not many guys get drafted from Harvard, regardless of their numbers.

[CptZoogs]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

I think this statement is hard to qualify.  Also, it doesn't do much for the discussion at hand.  When examining the effect of an explanatory variable, you need control for confounding variables.  Of course class plays a role in privilege, but it is not the only factor.  This particular discussion is about the effect of race.  All things being equal, do you believe that it is not an advantage to be white?  Also, do you believe that race is not an issue for wealthy minorities?

Why wouldn’t class be relevant to the discussion at hand?

I think I acknowledged that all things being equal, it’s an advantage to be white in our society. But, how often are all things equal? I think that class still is the biggest roadblock in America.  I’d much rather be a wealthy minority than a non-wealthy white, even while acknowledging that being wealthy and white is at the top of the privilege pyramid.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this thread not about the concept of white privilege?  We are examining the role of race and what advantages and disadvantages comes with that.  Class is a confounding variable.  It ALSO has an impact.  So when you look at/measure/manipulate two confounding variables simultaneously, you are not able to determine how much of the response is due to one variable, the other, or some combination of both.

[celticsclay]

Guys, save yourself a couple dozen points off your blood pressure and don't try to convince people on the Internet who have no interest in hearing you that white privilege is real.

We can go dig up statistics and testimonials by eloquent people from all walks of life, it won't make a difference.


Race is one of those topics that hit so close to home for people that trying to change anybody's mind by using arguments communicated over an electronic medium is a Sisyphean task, in my opinion.

I think the best hope for productive conversations regarding this and similar topics is to talk to people we know personally in real life.

I used to not believe it was real, but you changed my mind with some of your posts

[gift]

White people just need to feel superior. If it's not to other races, it's to racists.

Semi-serious.

[CptZoogs]

Guys, save yourself a couple dozen points off your blood pressure and don't try to convince people on the Internet who have no interest in hearing you that white privilege is real.

We can go dig up statistics and testimonials by eloquent people from all walks of life, it won't make a difference.


Race is one of those topics that hit so close to home for people that trying to change anybody's mind by using arguments communicated over an electronic medium is a Sisyphean task, in my opinion.

I think the best hope for productive conversations regarding this and similar topics is to talk to people we know personally in real life.

I used to not believe it was real, but you changed my mind with some of your posts

TP for having the ability to change your mind, and for admitting it.  Regardless of the context of the issue, this is an underrated quality.

[Roy H.]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

I think this statement is hard to qualify.  Also, it doesn't do much for the discussion at hand.  When examining the effect of an explanatory variable, you need control for confounding variables.  Of course class plays a role in privilege, but it is not the only factor.  This particular discussion is about the effect of race.  All things being equal, do you believe that it is not an advantage to be white?  Also, do you believe that race is not an issue for wealthy minorities?

Why wouldn’t class be relevant to the discussion at hand?

I think I acknowledged that all things being equal, it’s an advantage to be white in our society. But, how often are all things equal? I think that class still is the biggest roadblock in America.  I’d much rather be a wealthy minority than a non-wealthy white, even while acknowledging that being wealthy and white is at the top of the privilege pyramid.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this thread not about the concept of white privilege?  We are examining the role of race and what advantages and disadvantages comes with that.  Class is a confounding variable.  It ALSO has an impact.  So when you look at/measure/manipulate two confounding variables simultaneously, you are not able to determine how much of the response is due to one variable, the other, or some combination of both.

It’s impossible to measure any of this. However, poverty seems to be a bigger impediment to advancement than race. It’s easy to confound the two because of the percentage of blacks living in poverty, but class tends to be the determining roadblock for people, not just in America but throughout human history.

[CptZoogs]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

I think this statement is hard to qualify.  Also, it doesn't do much for the discussion at hand.  When examining the effect of an explanatory variable, you need control for confounding variables.  Of course class plays a role in privilege, but it is not the only factor.  This particular discussion is about the effect of race.  All things being equal, do you believe that it is not an advantage to be white?  Also, do you believe that race is not an issue for wealthy minorities?

Why wouldn’t class be relevant to the discussion at hand?

I think I acknowledged that all things being equal, it’s an advantage to be white in our society. But, how often are all things equal? I think that class still is the biggest roadblock in America.  I’d much rather be a wealthy minority than a non-wealthy white, even while acknowledging that being wealthy and white is at the top of the privilege pyramid.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this thread not about the concept of white privilege?  We are examining the role of race and what advantages and disadvantages comes with that.  Class is a confounding variable.  It ALSO has an impact.  So when you look at/measure/manipulate two confounding variables simultaneously, you are not able to determine how much of the response is due to one variable, the other, or some combination of both.

It’s impossible to measure any of this. However, poverty seems to be a bigger impediment to advancement than race. It’s easy to confound the two because of the percentage of blacks living in poverty, but class tends to be the determining roadblock for people, not just in America but throughout human history.

From a population parameter standpoint this is correct, but that is true for most populations.  Yet we still conduct and find value in statistical studies all the time.  So, I guess it's more accurate to say we can attempt to measure it.  And I agree with you that class plays a huge role.  So additional questions to ask include what role has race played in this country with class as the response variable.  Is there an association between race and class, and if so, what are the potential causes? 

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

A rich black man and a poor white man walks into a upscale store, both are dressed exactly the same, nothing fancy, just your everyday comfortable attire. Do you think they are going to be treated the same? You don't see the eyes and employees following the black man. You don't hear them telling him "those are really expensive" or them showing the least expensive thing in the store to him if he's "lucky."

You just proved the point and you don't even realize it! The black guy in your scenario had to HAVE more to be SEEN. You didn't even think about it before you wrote it because you don't actually care, as long as you don't have to accept the reality. A "higher class" black person has to be KNOWN about in order to receive that privilege. Your own example doesn't even have to do with race, it is income inequality, an entirely different problem within this context!

2 rich people, one black and one white still don't get treated the same at all times. Even rich black men have many disadvantages because of their skin color. So, sure, they have it "better" than the average person a lot of the time, but it comes from KNOWING the black man has the money! How many times have you heard of a middle class white man walking up to his own home or walking around in his OWN yard who have had the police called on him? Yea, doesn't happen.

When two people, one white and the other, a POC, are treated the same, without descriptions (money, good person, etc), then your made up world will be reality.

Also, you say an upper class black person has more privilege than a lower class white man as if that isn't a problem too. Not because one is black and the other is white but because we ALL should have a fair chance at a good life! If we are arguing income inequality, then I'm sure MOST people also see that as problem! Not that we all deserve to have money but that essential things shouldn't be reserved for those who have the money, ie, healthcare! I don't expect the LUXURIES of a rich person (yachts, big homes, fancy cars etc.) but I do think that access to good healthcare, schooling, and equal "everyday" treatment should be a given! The color of my skin should never be the defining difference in treatment!

Don't conflate income inequality with the privileged argument because it's two separate things in the context you used and what this discussion is based on, although, POC experience greater income inequality based solely on their skin color. Most people are against income inequality! Your example works the same if the middle class man was white and the poorer person was black! I'm laughing at you thinking income inequality is both nuanced and ignored... you're right, it's ignored by the rich and powerful (mainly white people)!

[Roy H.]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

I think this statement is hard to qualify.  Also, it doesn't do much for the discussion at hand.  When examining the effect of an explanatory variable, you need control for confounding variables.  Of course class plays a role in privilege, but it is not the only factor.  This particular discussion is about the effect of race.  All things being equal, do you believe that it is not an advantage to be white?  Also, do you believe that race is not an issue for wealthy minorities?

Why wouldn’t class be relevant to the discussion at hand?

I think I acknowledged that all things being equal, it’s an advantage to be white in our society. But, how often are all things equal? I think that class still is the biggest roadblock in America.  I’d much rather be a wealthy minority than a non-wealthy white, even while acknowledging that being wealthy and white is at the top of the privilege pyramid.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this thread not about the concept of white privilege?  We are examining the role of race and what advantages and disadvantages comes with that.  Class is a confounding variable.  It ALSO has an impact.  So when you look at/measure/manipulate two confounding variables simultaneously, you are not able to determine how much of the response is due to one variable, the other, or some combination of both.

It’s impossible to measure any of this. However, poverty seems to be a bigger impediment to advancement than race. It’s easy to confound the two because of the percentage of blacks living in poverty, but class tends to be the determining roadblock for people, not just in America but throughout human history.

From a population parameter standpoint this is correct, but that is true for most populations.  Yet we still conduct and find value in statistical studies all the time.  So, I guess it's more accurate to say we can attempt to measure it.  And I agree with you that class plays a huge role.  So additional questions to ask include what role has race played in this country with class as the response variable.  Is there an association between race and class, and if so, what are the potential causes?

I agree with you that there is value in studying this.  And, there are definitely artificially created impediments to advancement for those born into poverty which are amplified by race.

What I don't like is labeling things with a one size fits all approach.  "White privilege" suggests that all whites enjoy a privilege over all blacks, while ignoring nuance and context.  It leaves a lot of impoverished whites rightfully asking what possible privilege they have over those who are better-situated largely due to birth.  I think discussing things in such over-broad terms leads to resentment, rather than people banding together to address issues across a racial divide.

[CelticsElite]

Racism will always exist

Crying about racism by writing articles about racism existing will never stop the racists. Just like sexists, just like atheists, just like every other group, you will not stop them from existing by yelling and screaming at them roaming


I just find it comical that people think they can stop something so Inherent in humanity.


Korver goes against everything about want Martin Luther king said - stop judging people based on their skin color and start judging them based on their character. No, white people don't need reeducation or retrospective thought or whatever propaganda he wrote. Do racist people need reeducation? Yes. Not white. Racist people exist in all colors. Go see how white south African farmers get treated by blacks there

[nickagneta]

Racism will always exist

Crying about racism by writing articles about racism existing will never stop the racists. Just like sexists, just like atheists, just like every other group, you will not stop them from existing by yelling and screaming at them roaming


I just find it comical that people think they can stop something so Inherent in humanity.


Korver goes against everything about want Martin Luther king said - stop judging people based on their skin color and start judging them based on their character. No, white people don't need reeducation or retrospective thought or whatever propaganda he wrote. Do racist people need reeducation? Yes. Not white. Racist people exist in all colors. Go see how white south African farmers get treated by blacks there

I think you might be missing a fundamental understanding of apartheid in South Africa if you believe the black population might not still have very real reasons to not like and trust white people there.

Racism. Yup it is. It might have something to do with the systematic racism the white minority used against blacks up until the early 90's.

Also, constantly "crying about racism" might not stop racists, but talking about racism and educating people about racism will hopefully cause there to stop new racists from coming into existence, thereby, eventually eradicating racism somewhere in a future generation's time.

[Celtics4ever]

I wish athletes and actors would stick to their professions and not try to push this stuff on people.   Athletes and Actors are privileged too and get special treatment more so than us mere mortals.   

I agree with you that there is value in studying this.  And, there are definitely artificially created impediments to advancement for those born into poverty which are amplified by race.

What I don't like is labeling things with a one size fits all approach.  "White privilege" suggests that all whites enjoy a privilege over all blacks, while ignoring nuance and context.  It leaves a lot of impoverished whites rightfully asking what possible privilege they have over those who are better-situated largely due to birth.  I think discussing things in such over-broad terms leads to resentment, rather than people banding together to address issues across a racial divide.

It's easier to blame others than oneself, I suppose.    There definitely have been instances of what Korver speaks of, but this is a highly complex issue as you say with many different factors.   As you say, there are a lot more impoverished whites, come to Appalachia and take a look.   Poverty is a way of life for many families and they know how to get on benefits and stay on them their whole lives thinking themselves rather clever at beating the system.   I was always raised that the best social program is a job but I was also the first male in my family to graduate college and get a grad degree.   My people on my grandfather side were here in 1620.  Work ethic was more valued in my family than book smarts.  The funny thing is that proudest members of my family were always the poorest in retrospection.

[CptZoogs]

I feel like a lot of people get the concept of "white privilege" twisted, and end up getting triggered as a result.  I am talking about the people who feel that to acknowledge white privilege exists is equivalent to saying no white person had it rough or no white person had to work hard to get what they have in life.  I personally think it is hard not to recognize that being born in the majority comes with advantages, just as being born in the country period comes with advantages.  But just because you have an advantage, that does not mean you did or didn't work hard to make the most of those advantages.  Think of a player like Steph Curry.  He was raised by one of the best shooters of all time, and when it comes to trying to make a career as a basketball player, that is a huge advantage.  But Steph still had to work hard to make his own name and become the player he is today.  I think so much of this is about, at the very least, acknowledging these advantages exist.  Instead, there are many that would claim the issue of racism is settled in this country, which in turn leaves many minorities feeling like they are being gas-lit.  If we can acknowledge the issue exists, then that is the first step for brainstorming reasonable strategies for dealing with the issue.

Let’s concede for purposes of this conversation that being born a very poor black is more challenging than being a very poor white. Assume that the white has fewer barriers, in general.

What gets lost in the focus on race is that things change fairly dramatically when you change the class of one of the participants.  A middle class black has more privilege than a lower working class white. But, that nuance is ignored.

I think this statement is hard to qualify.  Also, it doesn't do much for the discussion at hand.  When examining the effect of an explanatory variable, you need control for confounding variables.  Of course class plays a role in privilege, but it is not the only factor.  This particular discussion is about the effect of race.  All things being equal, do you believe that it is not an advantage to be white?  Also, do you believe that race is not an issue for wealthy minorities?

Why wouldn’t class be relevant to the discussion at hand?

I think I acknowledged that all things being equal, it’s an advantage to be white in our society. But, how often are all things equal? I think that class still is the biggest roadblock in America.  I’d much rather be a wealthy minority than a non-wealthy white, even while acknowledging that being wealthy and white is at the top of the privilege pyramid.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this thread not about the concept of white privilege?  We are examining the role of race and what advantages and disadvantages comes with that.  Class is a confounding variable.  It ALSO has an impact.  So when you look at/measure/manipulate two confounding variables simultaneously, you are not able to determine how much of the response is due to one variable, the other, or some combination of both.

It’s impossible to measure any of this. However, poverty seems to be a bigger impediment to advancement than race. It’s easy to confound the two because of the percentage of blacks living in poverty, but class tends to be the determining roadblock for people, not just in America but throughout human history.

From a population parameter standpoint this is correct, but that is true for most populations.  Yet we still conduct and find value in statistical studies all the time.  So, I guess it's more accurate to say we can attempt to measure it.  And I agree with you that class plays a huge role.  So additional questions to ask include what role has race played in this country with class as the response variable.  Is there an association between race and class, and if so, what are the potential causes?

I agree with you that there is value in studying this.  And, there are definitely artificially created impediments to advancement for those born into poverty which are amplified by race.

What I don't like is labeling things with a one size fits all approach.  "White privilege" suggests that all whites enjoy a privilege over all blacks, while ignoring nuance and context.  It leaves a lot of impoverished whites rightfully asking what possible privilege they have over those who are better-situated largely due to birth.  I think discussing things in such over-broad terms leads to resentment, rather than people banding together to address issues across a racial divide.

Now we are circling back to my initial point that people twist the meaning of the phrase.  A lot of these issues are impeded by semantics.  See: definition of racism.  But conversations like these are important to locating common ground when and if there is any.  The instinct to reject the phrase outright kind of removes the opportunity to explore further.  So Korver's article is a good thing.  It was his attempt to understand what the term was all about.  You may agree/disagree with some/all of his thoughts, but I think that's all we could ask of anyone.  Because then we have the opportunity to see exactly how other people see things, and we aren't just relying on a catch phrase.