Author Topic: NBC Sport and race article  (Read 2587 times)

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Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2019, 11:06:14 AM »

Offline wiley

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It is not racist to be proud of one's race.  What's racist is denigrating other human beings on the basis of race. 

If there were a white and black star who might come to Boston, but just one and not both, and the white one would lead the Celtics to two championships and the black one to three championships, then
Boston Celtic fans would want the black one.  If they would bring equal number of championships and were both equally nice human beings off the court,  it is not surprising, nor racist, that majority white Boston would pick the white player.  It would not be unanimous, people would choose based on personal preferences and all kinds of unknowable things, including the concept of white players being perceived as atypical underdogs in the NBA

Are there racists out there who would pick 2 championships and the white player over 3 and the black player?  Yes, there are racists out there who would do that.  But you can't blame all of Boston for a few racists, any more than you can blame the entire United States of America for the racists within its borders. 

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2019, 12:00:17 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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It is not racist to be proud of one's race.  What's racist is denigrating other human beings on the basis of race. 

If there were a white and black star who might come to Boston, but just one and not both, and the white one would lead the Celtics to two championships and the black one to three championships, then
Boston Celtic fans would want the black one.  If they would bring equal number of championships and were both equally nice human beings off the court,  it is not surprising, nor racist, that majority white Boston would pick the white player.  It would not be unanimous, people would choose based on personal preferences and all kinds of unknowable things, including the concept of white players being perceived as atypical underdogs in the NBA

Are there racists out there who would pick 2 championships and the white player over 3 and the black player?  Yes, there are racists out there who would do that.  But you can't blame all of Boston for a few racists, any more than you can blame the entire United States of America for the racists within its borders. 

I understand your point, but in a country that is still majority white, where non-hispanic white people will be the largest ethnic group for a long time, making a decision based solely on race when all other factors are equal is inherently racist, by definition.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2019, 12:02:19 PM »

Offline gpap

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This guy should've been writing about the Jazz fanbase instead.

Seriously. You talk about trash fans, sounds like Utah has plenty of them!

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2019, 02:30:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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It is not racist to be proud of one's race.  What's racist is denigrating other human beings on the basis of race. 

If there were a white and black star who might come to Boston, but just one and not both, and the white one would lead the Celtics to two championships and the black one to three championships, then
Boston Celtic fans would want the black one.  If they would bring equal number of championships and were both equally nice human beings off the court,  it is not surprising, nor racist, that majority white Boston would pick the white player.  It would not be unanimous, people would choose based on personal preferences and all kinds of unknowable things, including the concept of white players being perceived as atypical underdogs in the NBA

Are there racists out there who would pick 2 championships and the white player over 3 and the black player?  Yes, there are racists out there who would do that.  But you can't blame all of Boston for a few racists, any more than you can blame the entire United States of America for the racists within its borders. 

I understand your point, but in a country that is still majority white, where non-hispanic white people will be the largest ethnic group for a long time, making a decision based solely on race when all other factors are equal is inherently racist, by definition.
If all relevant factors are equal, how do you make the decision?  Do you just flip a coin?

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2019, 03:11:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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It is not racist to be proud of one's race.  What's racist is denigrating other human beings on the basis of race. 

If there were a white and black star who might come to Boston, but just one and not both, and the white one would lead the Celtics to two championships and the black one to three championships, then
Boston Celtic fans would want the black one.  If they would bring equal number of championships and were both equally nice human beings off the court,  it is not surprising, nor racist, that majority white Boston would pick the white player.  It would not be unanimous, people would choose based on personal preferences and all kinds of unknowable things, including the concept of white players being perceived as atypical underdogs in the NBA

Are there racists out there who would pick 2 championships and the white player over 3 and the black player?  Yes, there are racists out there who would do that.  But you can't blame all of Boston for a few racists, any more than you can blame the entire United States of America for the racists within its borders. 

I understand your point, but in a country that is still majority white, where non-hispanic white people will be the largest ethnic group for a long time, making a decision based solely on race when all other factors are equal is inherently racist, by definition.
If all relevant factors are equal, how do you make the decision?  Do you just flip a coin?
Well, obviously, one way you probably do not want to do it is base it on race, color, religion, sex, or sexual preference.

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2019, 03:34:40 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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It is not racist to be proud of one's race.  What's racist is denigrating other human beings on the basis of race. 

If there were a white and black star who might come to Boston, but just one and not both, and the white one would lead the Celtics to two championships and the black one to three championships, then
Boston Celtic fans would want the black one.  If they would bring equal number of championships and were both equally nice human beings off the court,  it is not surprising, nor racist, that majority white Boston would pick the white player.  It would not be unanimous, people would choose based on personal preferences and all kinds of unknowable things, including the concept of white players being perceived as atypical underdogs in the NBA

Are there racists out there who would pick 2 championships and the white player over 3 and the black player?  Yes, there are racists out there who would do that.  But you can't blame all of Boston for a few racists, any more than you can blame the entire United States of America for the racists within its borders. 

I understand your point, but in a country that is still majority white, where non-hispanic white people will be the largest ethnic group for a long time, making a decision based solely on race when all other factors are equal is inherently racist, by definition.
If all relevant factors are equal, how do you make the decision?  Do you just flip a coin?

All things being equal, haven't you ever had a gut feeling swaying you one way or another?


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Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2019, 04:17:44 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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It is not racist to be proud of one's race.  What's racist is denigrating other human beings on the basis of race. 

If there were a white and black star who might come to Boston, but just one and not both, and the white one would lead the Celtics to two championships and the black one to three championships, then
Boston Celtic fans would want the black one.  If they would bring equal number of championships and were both equally nice human beings off the court,  it is not surprising, nor racist, that majority white Boston would pick the white player.  It would not be unanimous, people would choose based on personal preferences and all kinds of unknowable things, including the concept of white players being perceived as atypical underdogs in the NBA

Are there racists out there who would pick 2 championships and the white player over 3 and the black player?  Yes, there are racists out there who would do that.  But you can't blame all of Boston for a few racists, any more than you can blame the entire United States of America for the racists within its borders. 

I understand your point, but in a country that is still majority white, where non-hispanic white people will be the largest ethnic group for a long time, making a decision based solely on race when all other factors are equal is inherently racist, by definition.
If all relevant factors are equal, how do you make the decision?  Do you just flip a coin?

If you have two exactly equal candidates, indistinguishable absent race, flipping a coin sounds fine. Or do more research into your candidates I guess.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2019, 09:47:00 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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It's not about race, it's about investment. Black, white or pink the organization has a duty to itself to get Gordon Hayward back to 100% as quickly as possible. Just by the mere fact that he's white, there was bound to be those who have a lack of understanding of smart business and see racism everywhere they look.

It's so surprising to me that Boston is considered a racist city, even by those living in places like Charlette NC, and Atlanta Ga. This may have something to do with the negative exposure Bill Russell gave to the City of Boston in the mid-60s.


Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2019, 10:37:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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It's not about race, it's about investment. Black, white or pink the organization has a duty to itself to get Gordon Hayward back to 100% as quickly as possible. Just by the mere fact that he's white, there was bound to be those who have a lack of understanding of smart business and see racism everywhere they look.

It's so surprising to me that Boston is considered a racist city, even by those living in places like Charlette NC, and Atlanta Ga. This may have something to do with the negative exposure Bill Russell gave to the City of Boston in the mid-60s.
Yeah, in the 50's through to the mid 80s or so, the city of Boston had a much deserved racist reputation. It wasn't just because of how Russell was treated in the 60's. The Yawkey's were embarrassingly racist and the fans in the Fenway followed suit. Then there were the riots over segregation of schools in the 70's. Also, Boston's neighborhoods were awash in racial violence as whites lived in certain areas and non whites were relegated to certain other areas. During most of that time, if you were black and walking down Broadway South Boston, you were being verbally abused.

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2019, 08:48:24 AM »

Offline Big333223

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It's not about race, it's about investment. Black, white or pink the organization has a duty to itself to get Gordon Hayward back to 100% as quickly as possible. Just by the mere fact that he's white, there was bound to be those who have a lack of understanding of smart business and see racism everywhere they look.

It's so surprising to me that Boston is considered a racist city, even by those living in places like Charlette NC, and Atlanta Ga. This may have something to do with the negative exposure Bill Russell gave to the City of Boston in the mid-60s.
Yeah, in the 50's through to the mid 80s or so, the city of Boston had a much deserved racist reputation. It wasn't just because of how Russell was treated in the 60's. The Yawkey's were embarrassingly racist and the fans in the Fenway followed suit. Then there were the riots over segregation of schools in the 70's. Also, Boston's neighborhoods were awash in racial violence as whites lived in certain areas and non whites were relegated to certain other areas. During most of that time, if you were black and walking down Broadway South Boston, you were being verbally abused.

The way Russell and other Black players were treated in the 60's is a big reason for the perception Boston is racist but I also think, just as big or bigger of a reason, is that post Russell until the early 90's, the face of the team was White. We're talking about a 20+ year stretch when Black players were taking over the league, Boston's best players were Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and (mostly) McHale. I think those years solidified the characterization of Boston as racist because as the league had more Black players, the Celtics got Whiter.

Now, my explanation for the number of White guys on Celtic rosters during that time, ironically, has to do with Red Auerbach caring only about winning and playing the margins very well. In the 60's, when more overt racism marginalized many Black players, Auerbach didn't care and went after the best guys, which naturally resulted in the first all-Black starting lineup, Bill Russell as coach, etc.

In the 70's and 80's when the rest of the league started to accept and rely on more Black players (a change which, itself, was tinged with racism: "Hey, Black guys are good at basketball, let's get more of them!") there was a shift in perception (bias) that White guys aren't as good at basketball and were probably devalued slightly. So Auerbach, truly not caring about such things, found value on the margins with White guys whose skills were devalued by this new bias. It's a bias that still exists, to some degree (remember Nik Stuaskas saying players go at him harder because he's White?) but is mostly a relic and the Celtics now have many years where the face of the franchise has not been White.

That's my theory, anyway.
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Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2019, 10:23:32 AM »

Online footey

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It's not about race, it's about investment. Black, white or pink the organization has a duty to itself to get Gordon Hayward back to 100% as quickly as possible. Just by the mere fact that he's white, there was bound to be those who have a lack of understanding of smart business and see racism everywhere they look.

It's so surprising to me that Boston is considered a racist city, even by those living in places like Charlette NC, and Atlanta Ga. This may have something to do with the negative exposure Bill Russell gave to the City of Boston in the mid-60s.
Yeah, in the 50's through to the mid 80s or so, the city of Boston had a much deserved racist reputation. It wasn't just because of how Russell was treated in the 60's. The Yawkey's were embarrassingly racist and the fans in the Fenway followed suit. Then there were the riots over segregation of schools in the 70's. Also, Boston's neighborhoods were awash in racial violence as whites lived in certain areas and non whites were relegated to certain other areas. During most of that time, if you were black and walking down Broadway South Boston, you were being verbally abused.

The way Russell and other Black players were treated in the 60's is a big reason for the perception Boston is racist but I also think, just as big or bigger of a reason, is that post Russell until the early 90's, the face of the team was White. We're talking about a 20+ year stretch when Black players were taking over the league, Boston's best players were Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and (mostly) McHale. I think those years solidified the characterization of Boston as racist because as the league had more Black players, the Celtics got Whiter.

Now, my explanation for the number of White guys on Celtic rosters during that time, ironically, has to do with Red Auerbach caring only about winning and playing the margins very well. In the 60's, when more overt racism marginalized many Black players, Auerbach didn't care and went after the best guys, which naturally resulted in the first all-Black starting lineup, Bill Russell as coach, etc.

In the 70's and 80's when the rest of the league started to accept and rely on more Black players (a change which, itself, was tinged with racism: "Hey, Black guys are good at basketball, let's get more of them!") there was a shift in perception (bias) that White guys aren't as good at basketball and were probably devalued slightly. So Auerbach, truly not caring about such things, found value on the margins with White guys whose skills were devalued by this new bias. It's a bias that still exists, to some degree (remember Nik Stuaskas saying players go at him harder because he's White?) but is mostly a relic and the Celtics now have many years where the face of the franchise has not been White.

That's my theory, anyway.

Mine too.

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2019, 12:33:46 PM »

Offline rollie mass

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Don't forget South Boston,Charlestown and the divide in Dorchestor. And the run down South End.
Kennedy created a welfare state and then there was busing that cleared the Irish families out of Brighton..
Was the Irish racism aggravated by fighting for same jobs.Was the Racism born out of poverty and crime.Or was it simply Boston split into ethic groups.
Out in Lexington there was no racism but there was anti semitism being Irish and Jewish by nationality and name-- i know about it
.I will always remember a handsome boy coffee colored with green eyes-didn't even know he was black he was just a kid down the street.
My junior year after Massimino turning us into a formidable squad, into school walked this 6-8 giant and about 260-everybody stopped and saw state championship-the football coach almost fainted.The kid couldn't play a lick of basketball got cut but could bulldoze at football.
Slow lazy ,fat was the worst he got in private and it was true.
In Boston Garden during Tech Tourney we faced  top seeded all black undefeated Jamaica Plain .They probably never faced a team groomed for team defense,conditioned to stay in the stance full game and always talking on defense.i remember Massimino telling us how tall,strong and fast that team was and he said we were going to use their strengths and rawness  to beat them.The secret, a head fake, All they wanted to do was stuff the other player.
We fought over screens or the screeners defender would step out with hand out just enough to force the ball handler wider giving his defender time to go underneath. One hand down to stop crossovers, forcing the player to his off hand and using the sideline or drawing charges ,boxing out hard and a very good scouting report.They didn't know what hit them..All those drills and hours being taught 40 minutes of defense and the confidence it instilled that we could be anybody.
I used THEM-- as different and blessed athletically-quick twitch wasn't around back then.
As a race at first the proper word was Negro ,then in late sixties Black and today African American.

If i remember correctly Cowens played in Florida an all black squad and somebody called them the busted flush.Red Auerbach went for the best player he could get when white players were being minimized by GM's.
Pardon my reminiscing and being  not politically correct.
 .
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 06:57:59 AM by rollie mass »

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2019, 01:28:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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It's not about race, it's about investment. Black, white or pink the organization has a duty to itself to get Gordon Hayward back to 100% as quickly as possible. Just by the mere fact that he's white, there was bound to be those who have a lack of understanding of smart business and see racism everywhere they look.

It's so surprising to me that Boston is considered a racist city, even by those living in places like Charlette NC, and Atlanta Ga. This may have something to do with the negative exposure Bill Russell gave to the City of Boston in the mid-60s.
Yeah, in the 50's through to the mid 80s or so, the city of Boston had a much deserved racist reputation. It wasn't just because of how Russell was treated in the 60's. The Yawkey's were embarrassingly racist and the fans in the Fenway followed suit. Then there were the riots over segregation of schools in the 70's. Also, Boston's neighborhoods were awash in racial violence as whites lived in certain areas and non whites were relegated to certain other areas. During most of that time, if you were black and walking down Broadway South Boston, you were being verbally abused.

The way Russell and other Black players were treated in the 60's is a big reason for the perception Boston is racist but I also think, just as big or bigger of a reason, is that post Russell until the early 90's, the face of the team was White. We're talking about a 20+ year stretch when Black players were taking over the league, Boston's best players were Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and (mostly) McHale. I think those years solidified the characterization of Boston as racist because as the league had more Black players, the Celtics got Whiter.

Now, my explanation for the number of White guys on Celtic rosters during that time, ironically, has to do with Red Auerbach caring only about winning and playing the margins very well. In the 60's, when more overt racism marginalized many Black players, Auerbach didn't care and went after the best guys, which naturally resulted in the first all-Black starting lineup, Bill Russell as coach, etc.

In the 70's and 80's when the rest of the league started to accept and rely on more Black players (a change which, itself, was tinged with racism: "Hey, Black guys are good at basketball, let's get more of them!") there was a shift in perception (bias) that White guys aren't as good at basketball and were probably devalued slightly. So Auerbach, truly not caring about such things, found value on the margins with White guys whose skills were devalued by this new bias. It's a bias that still exists, to some degree (remember Nik Stuaskas saying players go at him harder because he's White?) but is mostly a relic and the Celtics now have many years where the face of the franchise has not been White.

That's my theory, anyway.

Mine too.
You have to remember something, the Celtics were the number three or four sports team in this city during Russell's time here. The owners of the Red Sox and the fandom of the Red Sox led this city's show of racism towards blacks. Their actions drew more racist attention simply because they reached a much, much larger audience.

Russell's treatment was awful and also got attention and I am not trying to minimize what happened to him but in the sixties the Celtics' and the NBA's audience we're tiny as compared to what hockey and baseball we're getting in this city. What happened to Bill in Reading just wasn't as big a deal as it is today and got very little news run.

Boston's reputation of a racist city was well earned but it was not Russell's treatment that was the leading proof of that. It was the political ongoings with bussing, segregation, and the treatment of blacks(both on and off the field) at Fenway and in the front office of the Red Sox, at the time, this city's biggest or second biggest sport.

Basketball just didn't have the audience that would be the driving factor in labeling Boston a racist city. It was so much more.

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2019, 02:48:31 PM »

Offline Triplenickle

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I wasn't gonna post in here but I was born and raised here, so I know all about it. But in my opinion NY and Philly are much more racist and nastier about it.  Chicago seems much more racist too.

I don't worry about the petty stuff, and if a black person can get a good education, live where he wants, find good work, get loans, quality health care, and not be harrassed by cops, then a city is not bad at all.

So...I been hired by plenty of white people, got a good education...and have met plenty of people who are not stand-offish.

They need more work on glass ceilings, loans, the political field and until recently cop harrassment. What they choose to think behind closed doors, I don't even care.

But socially this place has come a long way from 30 years ago.

Re: NBC Sport and race article
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2019, 09:03:26 AM »

Offline Big333223

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It's not about race, it's about investment. Black, white or pink the organization has a duty to itself to get Gordon Hayward back to 100% as quickly as possible. Just by the mere fact that he's white, there was bound to be those who have a lack of understanding of smart business and see racism everywhere they look.

It's so surprising to me that Boston is considered a racist city, even by those living in places like Charlette NC, and Atlanta Ga. This may have something to do with the negative exposure Bill Russell gave to the City of Boston in the mid-60s.
Yeah, in the 50's through to the mid 80s or so, the city of Boston had a much deserved racist reputation. It wasn't just because of how Russell was treated in the 60's. The Yawkey's were embarrassingly racist and the fans in the Fenway followed suit. Then there were the riots over segregation of schools in the 70's. Also, Boston's neighborhoods were awash in racial violence as whites lived in certain areas and non whites were relegated to certain other areas. During most of that time, if you were black and walking down Broadway South Boston, you were being verbally abused.

The way Russell and other Black players were treated in the 60's is a big reason for the perception Boston is racist but I also think, just as big or bigger of a reason, is that post Russell until the early 90's, the face of the team was White. We're talking about a 20+ year stretch when Black players were taking over the league, Boston's best players were Havlicek and Cowens, and then Bird and (mostly) McHale. I think those years solidified the characterization of Boston as racist because as the league had more Black players, the Celtics got Whiter.

Now, my explanation for the number of White guys on Celtic rosters during that time, ironically, has to do with Red Auerbach caring only about winning and playing the margins very well. In the 60's, when more overt racism marginalized many Black players, Auerbach didn't care and went after the best guys, which naturally resulted in the first all-Black starting lineup, Bill Russell as coach, etc.

In the 70's and 80's when the rest of the league started to accept and rely on more Black players (a change which, itself, was tinged with racism: "Hey, Black guys are good at basketball, let's get more of them!") there was a shift in perception (bias) that White guys aren't as good at basketball and were probably devalued slightly. So Auerbach, truly not caring about such things, found value on the margins with White guys whose skills were devalued by this new bias. It's a bias that still exists, to some degree (remember Nik Stuaskas saying players go at him harder because he's White?) but is mostly a relic and the Celtics now have many years where the face of the franchise has not been White.

That's my theory, anyway.

Mine too.
You have to remember something, the Celtics were the number three or four sports team in this city during Russell's time here. The owners of the Red Sox and the fandom of the Red Sox led this city's show of racism towards blacks. Their actions drew more racist attention simply because they reached a much, much larger audience.

Russell's treatment was awful and also got attention and I am not trying to minimize what happened to him but in the sixties the Celtics' and the NBA's audience we're tiny as compared to what hockey and baseball we're getting in this city. What happened to Bill in Reading just wasn't as big a deal as it is today and got very little news run.

Boston's reputation of a racist city was well earned but it was not Russell's treatment that was the leading proof of that. It was the political ongoings with bussing, segregation, and the treatment of blacks(both on and off the field) at Fenway and in the front office of the Red Sox, at the time, this city's biggest or second biggest sport.

Basketball just didn't have the audience that would be the driving factor in labeling Boston a racist city. It was so much more.

Good point.
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