Author Topic: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”  (Read 15561 times)

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Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2019, 10:04:52 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Seems like such a Warriors move to not put his name to a quote like that.
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Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2019, 10:05:17 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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I appear to be the only person in the universe who can't and won't listen to anymore "trade Hayward" or "Hayward sucks". Just everyone stop it now, or go to the garage, hit yourself in the leg with a sledge-hammer and then try play professional basketball within a year.

Agree we should limit his minutes in crunch time a bit, and limit his minutes generally though...
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Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2019, 10:07:02 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I appear to be the only person in the universe who can't and won't listen to anymore "trade Hayward" or "Hayward sucks". Just everyone stop it now, or go to the garage, hit yourself in the leg with a sledge-hammer and then try play professional basketball within a year.

Agree we should limit his minutes in crunch time a bit, and limit his minutes generally though...
Agree entirely. It’s so tiresome
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Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2019, 10:08:35 PM »

Offline celtics4ever33

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I appear to be the only person in the universe who can't and won't listen to anymore "trade Hayward" or "Hayward sucks". Just everyone stop it now, or go to the garage, hit yourself in the leg with a sledge-hammer and then try play professional basketball within a year.

Agree we should limit his minutes in crunch time a bit, and limit his minutes generally though...
Agree entirely. It’s so tiresome

If i was on the team and got hit in the leg with a sledgehammer, and I sucked when i came back, then that means i suck now.

Those are the facts.

You want me to give him sympathy ? I do , almost everyone does.

The facts are he is not that good right now.

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2019, 10:29:07 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I say patience. What else can you say?

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2019, 10:44:35 PM »

Offline BruceBanner18

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The Warriors player seemingly has a lot in common with a lot of Celtics fans:  he's hyper-focused on the last game, without any greater perspective.

Hayward has averaged 12.3 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 47.8% FG%, .576 TS% in 24.6 minutes in January.  That includes his poor offensive performance last night. 

In other words, he's averaging a point about every two minutes, on very good efficiency.  Sure, there are problems -- his aggressiveness, his outside shooting -- but his production is actually quite solid, especially with as many scoring options as we have.  I mean, here are the guys on our team scoring 0.5 points per minute (i.e., 18 points per 36):  Kyrie, Morris, Tatum.  That's it, and Morris and Tatum are just over that threshold.

I get that a large percentage of any fan base will look for scapegoats, but let's actually pay attention to what guys have been doing on the court.
The defense rests.  I find Gordon innocent of all charges.

It sucks that he's having that contract held against him.  He earned that contract and has made every effort to fulfill it.  If the production doesn't ever live up to the contract, that would definitely be a financial burden, but it was the price doing business. You can't account for injuries, unless there has been a history of them.

I disagree that his contract is being held against him.  If Hayward was playing like Morris and Morris was playing like Hayward, contracts being as they are people would be calling for Morris and his 'friendly' contract to be benched.  It's not about money now, it's about on-court impact.

And although I agree hyper reaction is happening, Hayward's impact on the team goes beyond his pts and shooting percentages. He is being attacked by opposing offenses (at least well coached offenses) and plays a slower pace than the Celtic's should be playing. One of our big advantages during last year's playoff run was our ability to switch on defense and athleticism/speed on the perimeter.  Hobbled Hayward is gumming up that strength.  It's an issue.

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2019, 11:02:22 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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This Warriors player is trying to rile up trouble for the Celtics. After we held our own with them all the way through and almost beat them, he knows the Celtics are their biggest threat, and that once Hayward gets back to form GS has to worry. Giving anonymous statements like this to the media can stimulate sone internal conflict on the Celtics. if this guy really believed this, the statement wouldn't have been anonymous

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2019, 11:58:58 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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And of course, if the ref doesn't blow that travel non-call on Curry, and the C's hit a 3 on the final possession to win the game, we're not having this discussion.

BUT we probably should be, no?
I don't know about that. What has really changed that we didn't know say a month ago? Hayward is nowhere near what he was when he signed here. He's making slow progress but is doing enough to be at this point to be a decent reserve. The team is not ready to think about beating the Warriors in a series till he's back to his old self and that's not likely to happen this season.  One loss to the Warriors and a not-great game from him doesn't change that. 

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2019, 12:46:31 AM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Are we sure it was a Warriors player who said this...and not a Celtic...? JK

Celtics force feeding GH minutes, instead of sending a $30 Million player to the G League to get up to speed, has hurt us a lot this season...Record-wise and also the minutes he's taking from other players...Players who need minutes for their big paycheck. Might be some of the reason for any locker room problems too.

Sure hope Gordon gets back to his old self soon...it's painful to watch, like Dominique Wilkins in his last year here.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2019, 12:55:32 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Are we sure it was a Warriors player who said this...and not a Celtic...? JK

Celtics force feeding GH minutes, instead of sending a $30 Million player to the G League to get up to speed, has hurt us a lot this season...Record-wise and also the minutes he's taking from other players...Players who need minutes for their big paycheck. Might be some of the reason for any locker room problems too.

Sure hope Gordon gets back to his old self soon...it's painful to watch, like Dominique Wilkins in his last year here.

How does one “get up to speed” by playing in a league that’s not at NBA speed?

The only way he’s going to get his rhythm and confidence back against elite NBA players/teams is well.... against elite NBA players/teams. If the Celtics don’t get him right by the playoffs, it probably won’t matter if we have HCA or not.
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Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2019, 01:00:21 AM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Are we sure it was a Warriors player who said this...and not a Celtic...? JK

Celtics force feeding GH minutes, instead of sending a $30 Million player to the G League to get up to speed, has hurt us a lot this season...Record-wise and also the minutes he's taking from other players...Players who need minutes for their big paycheck. Might be some of the reason for any locker room problems too.

Sure hope Gordon gets back to his old self soon...it's painful to watch, like Dominique Wilkins in his last year here.

How does one “get up to speed” by playing in a league that’s not at NBA speed?

The only way he’s going to get his rhythm and confidence back against elite NBA players/teams is well.... against elite NBA players/teams. If the Celtics don’t get him right by the playoffs, it probably won’t matter if we have HCA or not.

Ummmm, More "touches"...more Shots...more Minutes...more Confidence in his leg...?
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2019, 01:04:53 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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This Warriors player is trying to rile up trouble for the Celtics. After we held our own with them all the way through and almost beat them, he knows the Celtics are their biggest threat, and that once Hayward gets back to form GS has to worry. Giving anonymous statements like this to the media can stimulate some internal conflict on the Celtics. if this guy really believed this, the statement wouldn't have been anonymous

or he probably does not say anything at all so that he can keep exploiting what he perceives as a weakness.

Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2019, 01:21:12 AM »

Offline ozgod

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The Warriors player seemingly has a lot in common with a lot of Celtics fans:  he's hyper-focused on the last game, without any greater perspective.

Hayward has averaged 12.3 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 47.8% FG%, .576 TS% in 24.6 minutes in January.  That includes his poor offensive performance last night. 

In other words, he's averaging a point about every two minutes, on very good efficiency.  Sure, there are problems -- his aggressiveness, his outside shooting -- but his production is actually quite solid, especially with as many scoring options as we have.  I mean, here are the guys on our team scoring 0.5 points per minute (i.e., 18 points per 36):  Kyrie, Morris, Tatum.  That's it, and Morris and Tatum are just over that threshold.

I get that a large percentage of any fan base will look for scapegoats, but let's actually pay attention to what guys have been doing on the court.
The defense rests.  I find Gordon innocent of all charges.

It sucks that he's having that contract held against him.  He earned that contract and has made every effort to fulfill it.  If the production doesn't ever live up to the contract, that would definitely be a financial burden, but it was the price doing business. You can't account for injuries, unless there has been a history of them.

I disagree that his contract is being held against him.  If Hayward was playing like Morris and Morris was playing like Hayward, contracts being as they are people would be calling for Morris and his 'friendly' contract to be benched.  It's not about money now, it's about on-court impact.

And although I agree hyper reaction is happening, Hayward's impact on the team goes beyond his pts and shooting percentages. He is being attacked by opposing offenses (at least well coached offenses) and plays a slower pace than the Celtic's should be playing. One of our big advantages during last year's playoff run was our ability to switch on defense and athleticism/speed on the perimeter.  Hobbled Hayward is gumming up that strength.  It's an issue.

Comparing January, Hayward and Morris (and Brown) have similar levels of production in January:

Code: [Select]
PLAYER TEAM AGE GP W L MIN PTS FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% REB AST TOV STL BLK
Jaylen Brown BOS 22 13 9 4 24.5 12.8 4.6 9.8 47.2 1.4 3.2 42.9 2.2 3 71.8 4.5 1.2 1.6 1.1 0.5
Gordon Hayward BOS 28 12 8 4 24.6 12.3 4.5 9.4 47.8 1.2 3.5 33.3 2.1 2.8 75.8 3.8 3.3 1.8 0.8 0.3
Marcus Morris BOS 29 12 8 4 26.7 12.3 4.3 10.8 40.3 1.9 5.2 37.1 1.7 2.1 80 5.8 1.2 0.8 0.8 0.5

This is really a value for money equation. Because everyone's expectations for Gordon are so much greater than for Mook and Jaylen and because he's getting paid more than twice as much as the both of them combined, he will always attract more scrutiny of his performance than those two. You could argue that given Mook's salary of 5m/year, we're actually getting good value for his production and should be happy with it, while we criticize Hayward for the same production. If Hayward was being paid $15m, got injured and then had this level of performance coming back I suggest that the level of vitriol regarding his performance would be much lower. People never like feeling let down from high expectations, and the general expectation of a max contract player around the league is to be a 20ppg scorer and significantly contribute to rebounds and assists, or both, depending on his role (though in this team there may not be room for a second 20ppg scorer other than Kyrie, not unless there's some players shipped out). And the expectations for Gordon when he signed were very high, he was going to be the second scorer in the team behind IT and was going to contribute in other ways. Then 2017 happened, and in 2018 he's a shadow of what we expected when we (or Wyc) paid through the nose for him. Even more infuriating is the fact that occasionally he comes up with gems like the 2 MN games, or the 16/10/8 game, that show his quality, and what he *could* add to the Celtics, only to follow up with a 2 or 3 point game the following night. Consistency is his biggest enemy right now.

Also, how many max contract players in the league have usages of less than 20%? There are only 3 in the league that I can count based on the query below, and we have 2 of them: Al Horford 18.4% and Gordon Hayward 19.3%. The other is Kyle Lowry at 19.5% (his usage significantly dropped with the arrival of Kawhi).

http://bkref.com/tiny/Djwkr

As for the "unnamed Warriors player", I have my money on Draymond  :angel:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 01:31:05 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2019, 03:23:07 AM »

Offline LilRip

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If Hayward was playing like the Hayward of old, then our bench would be awesome and the Warriors (and the rest of the league) should be scared.

Right now, our starters are awesome most of the time and our bench is hot and cold. Our bench also seems mentally weak right now on the floor, in the sense that they easily get discouraged if things don’t immediately go their way (Brown, Hayward, Rozier).
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Re: Unnamed Warrior: Hayward a “liability on both sides of the court”
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2019, 03:42:03 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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The Warriors player seemingly has a lot in common with a lot of Celtics fans:  he's hyper-focused on the last game, without any greater perspective.

Hayward has averaged 12.3 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 47.8% FG%, .576 TS% in 24.6 minutes in January.  That includes his poor offensive performance last night. 

In other words, he's averaging a point about every two minutes, on very good efficiency.  Sure, there are problems -- his aggressiveness, his outside shooting -- but his production is actually quite solid, especially with as many scoring options as we have.  I mean, here are the guys on our team scoring 0.5 points per minute (i.e., 18 points per 36):  Kyrie, Morris, Tatum.  That's it, and Morris and Tatum are just over that threshold.

I get that a large percentage of any fan base will look for scapegoats, but let's actually pay attention to what guys have been doing on the court.
The defense rests.  I find Gordon innocent of all charges.

It sucks that he's having that contract held against him.  He earned that contract and has made every effort to fulfill it.  If the production doesn't ever live up to the contract, that would definitely be a financial burden, but it was the price doing business. You can't account for injuries, unless there has been a history of them.

I disagree that his contract is being held against him.  If Hayward was playing like Morris and Morris was playing like Hayward, contracts being as they are people would be calling for Morris and his 'friendly' contract to be benched.  It's not about money now, it's about on-court impact.

And although I agree hyper reaction is happening, Hayward's impact on the team goes beyond his pts and shooting percentages. He is being attacked by opposing offenses (at least well coached offenses) and plays a slower pace than the Celtic's should be playing. One of our big advantages during last year's playoff run was our ability to switch on defense and athleticism/speed on the perimeter.  Hobbled Hayward is gumming up that strength.  It's an issue.

Comparing January, Hayward and Morris (and Brown) have similar levels of production in January:

Code: [Select]
PLAYER TEAM AGE GP W L MIN PTS FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% REB AST TOV STL BLK
Jaylen Brown BOS 22 13 9 4 24.5 12.8 4.6 9.8 47.2 1.4 3.2 42.9 2.2 3 71.8 4.5 1.2 1.6 1.1 0.5
Gordon Hayward BOS 28 12 8 4 24.6 12.3 4.5 9.4 47.8 1.2 3.5 33.3 2.1 2.8 75.8 3.8 3.3 1.8 0.8 0.3
Marcus Morris BOS 29 12 8 4 26.7 12.3 4.3 10.8 40.3 1.9 5.2 37.1 1.7 2.1 80 5.8 1.2 0.8 0.8 0.5

This is really a value for money equation. Because everyone's expectations for Gordon are so much greater than for Mook and Jaylen and because he's getting paid more than twice as much as the both of them combined, he will always attract more scrutiny of his performance than those two. You could argue that given Mook's salary of 5m/year, we're actually getting good value for his production and should be happy with it, while we criticize Hayward for the same production. If Hayward was being paid $15m, got injured and then had this level of performance coming back I suggest that the level of vitriol regarding his performance would be much lower. People never like feeling let down from high expectations, and the general expectation of a max contract player around the league is to be a 20ppg scorer and significantly contribute to rebounds and assists, or both, depending on his role (though in this team there may not be room for a second 20ppg scorer other than Kyrie, not unless there's some players shipped out). And the expectations for Gordon when he signed were very high, he was going to be the second scorer in the team behind IT and was going to contribute in other ways. Then 2017 happened, and in 2018 he's a shadow of what we expected when we (or Wyc) paid through the nose for him. Even more infuriating is the fact that occasionally he comes up with gems like the 2 MN games, or the 16/10/8 game, that show his quality, and what he *could* add to the Celtics, only to follow up with a 2 or 3 point game the following night. Consistency is his biggest enemy right now.

Also, how many max contract players in the league have usages of less than 20%? There are only 3 in the league that I can count based on the query below, and we have 2 of them: Al Horford 18.4% and Gordon Hayward 19.3%. The other is Kyle Lowry at 19.5% (his usage significantly dropped with the arrival of Kawhi).

http://bkref.com/tiny/Djwkr

As for the "unnamed Warriors player", I have my money on Draymond  :angel:
While I understand the point about understanding the greater picture, just looking at the stats for January is misleading. No doubt those three guys have had similar Januarys. The difference is that on a whole Morris has been far better than Hayward this season (January Haywards best month, Morris' worst), and Jaylens good play extends all the way back too late November. And Haywards month has been bouyed in large part by his big 35 point game which was the first game of the month and the three games after that when he was in double digits. If we are talking recent play then his last eight games played he's averaging fewer than 9 points a game. He has scored in double figures 2 of he last eight games games he has played this month, and we lost 4/6 in which he scored single figures. He has been wildly inconsistent and it has hurt us.

With Hayward tho its as much about the wya he looks out there as it is the stats. I've said this before, but it looks like he've moving through mud at times. He legitamately has a hard time beating PF's off the dribble, he got stone walled by 100 year old Nene against the houston Rockets. Its been rough. And look, I don't blame him. His leg snapped in half, it was gonna be a long recovery. I think with a full offseaosn he will come back much better next year. And I'm not suggesting we bench him. But his ball handling dutes and overall minutes should be racheted down untill he is contributing more to winning than he currently is. Either A) He isn't physically there in which case no harm in lowering his minutes or B) its mental and throwing him out there to look terrible can't be helping.