Author Topic: How much longer do we need to give hayward?  (Read 18875 times)

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Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #135 on: January 02, 2019, 03:39:24 AM »

Offline bopna

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Despite scoring 0 points Hayward's net rating was still +5.2 versus SA. He's a good basketball player that helps the team both offensively and defensively even when he's not scoring.

https://on.nba.com/2R5rV4Y

Im tired of the last resorts being the  net rating crap. Enough of that. You can do that with Rozier too, he had a streak where he was a net rating in like 8 games in a row. Who cares about that, Hayward sucks , stop making excuses for his horrid play.

+10000
Hayward sucked in that Spurs game and has been sucking the last month tbh.
He is done.. Aint no coming back to being all star Hayward.. He is mentally weak and has no confidence in his game anymore... He just happy that is being paid his 30 million and will gladly play out his contract with Boston and make out as a bandit.. Cant trade him, can't even give him for free... He is what he is. For me evenif he recovers he will peak out at 15 ppg 4reb 3 ast.. Not exactly stellar for the duration of his max contract.. Those are Evan Turner like numbers.


Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #136 on: January 02, 2019, 03:54:47 AM »

Offline GetLucky

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So if hayward's struggles are mental to any significant extent, does that make them unjustified or intentional or a sign of some sort of character flaw?

Why are struggles due to trauma less valid than struggles due to, say, tendonitis?

I'm quite cautiously optimistic, based on David Locke's take on Hayward on his "Locked On" podcast when Hayward was a free agent (a couple years back), Locked On Celtics, Jackie McMullan's take on the Lowe Post podcast a few weeks back, and the games I've been able to watch.

It's not particularly analytical, but a brief summary of the Locke podcast is basically that Hayward works harder than anyone else. He's worked hard to add new bits to his game every off season - he wants to be a star, and willed himself to beating expectations and becoming a player of his stature through hard work.

So far, physically, Hayward has appeared to be on track, based on Locked On Celtics, the media, and my own viewings of Celtics games. A step slow, but no significant red flags physically.

In terms of timeline, Jackie Mac spoke to players in the league, who told her to expect March 2019 at least as the "real return date" for Hayward physically and mentally.

Based on the above, my gut feeling/hope is that Hayward will slowly break out in the coming months.

The recent games also seem to confirm the above, having taken a step back from being p---ed off at the losses - he'll have flashes, and the flashes will come more and more frequent. In the Grizz win, he looked quite agile and healthy - this makes sense the Grizz are a notoriously slow and deliberate team, and adjusting to the pace of the NBA is the one of the most difficult things for players to get used to by all accounts. I wasn't able to watch the Spurs and Rockets games - but the Spurs are great at picking on weakest links, while the Rockets are a fast paced team.

I think people forget that it took Paul George almost two years to recover from his broken leg. He came back a full year later for the last few games of the season and looked entirely mediocre. I expect Hayward to be back by next year, and he will hopefully be back by the playoffs of this year. Until then, though, he has to take his lumps. It sucks now, but it will make his poster dunks all that much sweeter later. (And, yes, Hayward could really get up before. He dunked more than George or Butler the year before he signed with the Celtics. Check Youtube if you don't believe me. He had some really impressive dunks over big men while in Utah.)


horrible comparison. First, Paul George played about 13 minutes a game. You cannot make a factual statement that this is the reason why Hayward sucks. He looks horrible and is playing regular NBA minutes.

Paul George came back the last few games  season for the Pacers and played 14 minutes a game trying to get some game play in.

Who knows what Paul's preparation was.

Hayward came in the start and ready to go, and has stunk it up.

NVM him never being better than George anyway/

George played 13 mpg after an equally (or even less) horrific injury and no complications. He had the entire offseason AND 7/8ths of the NBA season to prepare. This is evidence of rust and athletic limitation, and George was arguably a less athletically reliant player than Hayward (George was a lazy three-point chucker in his last few Pacer years). His was a clean break of the leg.

Hayward had a second surgery that took away his offseason and early training camp. I am adamant that most severe injuries to anything below the waist take NBA players two full years to recover from athletically. This hold true for George's leg, Rondo's ACL, Rose's meniscus tears, Zach Lavine's ACL, and many other injuries. Even Mike Conley is shooting a career-worse 41.9% from the field in the year of increased perimeter scoring. (The only year he had with a lower FG% was last, which was cut short after 12 games due to an Achilles tear.)

These minutes are Hayward's only chance at recovery if we want him near peak form for the playoffs. The wait will be worth it, hopefully this year but definitely next.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #137 on: January 02, 2019, 03:55:47 AM »

Offline Chris22

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Despite scoring 0 points Hayward's net rating was still +5.2 versus SA. He's a good basketball player that helps the team both offensively and defensively even when he's not scoring.

https://on.nba.com/2R5rV4Y

Im tired of the last resorts being the  net rating crap. Enough of that. You can do that with Rozier too, he had a streak where he was a net rating in like 8 games in a row. Who cares about that, Hayward sucks , stop making excuses for his horrid play.

+10000
Hayward sucked in that Spurs game and has been sucking the last month tbh.
He is done.. Aint no coming back to being all star Hayward.. He is mentally weak and has no confidence in his game anymore... He just happy that is being paid his 30 million and will gladly play out his contract with Boston and make out as a bandit.. Cant trade him, can't even give him for free... He is what he is. For me evenif he recovers he will peak out at 15 ppg 4reb 3 ast.. Not exactly stellar for the duration of his max contract.. Those are Evan Turner like numbers.

Hayward played okay, but we had no one to defend Aldridge. Until Baynes or Williams get back, it will be ugly.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #138 on: January 02, 2019, 06:21:18 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Despite scoring 0 points Hayward's net rating was still +5.2 versus SA. He's a good basketball player that helps the team both offensively and defensively even when he's not scoring.

https://on.nba.com/2R5rV4Y

Im tired of the last resorts being the  net rating crap. Enough of that. You can do that with Rozier too, he had a streak where he was a net rating in like 8 games in a row. Who cares about that, Hayward sucks , stop making excuses for his horrid play.

I'm tired of this "stats and context" stuff. Who cares about that, I have decided what I think is true, stop making excuses for alternative positions that don't agree with what I've already decided.

It's so obvious that a certain category of poster has decided that Hayward has personally robbed them of the team they thought they would be watching this year and that there's no justifiable response short of declaring him to be trash, soft, and oh by the way he was never any good before the injury either.
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Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #139 on: January 02, 2019, 06:21:52 AM »

Offline 10610786d

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So if hayward's struggles are mental to any significant extent, does that make them unjustified or intentional or a sign of some sort of character flaw?

Why are struggles due to trauma less valid than struggles due to, say, tendonitis?

I'm quite cautiously optimistic, based on David Locke's take on Hayward on his "Locked On" podcast when Hayward was a free agent (a couple years back), Locked On Celtics, Jackie McMullan's take on the Lowe Post podcast a few weeks back, and the games I've been able to watch.

It's not particularly analytical, but a brief summary of the Locke podcast is basically that Hayward works harder than anyone else. He's worked hard to add new bits to his game every off season - he wants to be a star, and willed himself to beating expectations and becoming a player of his stature through hard work.

So far, physically, Hayward has appeared to be on track, based on Locked On Celtics, the media, and my own viewings of Celtics games. A step slow, but no significant red flags physically.

In terms of timeline, Jackie Mac spoke to players in the league, who told her to expect March 2019 at least as the "real return date" for Hayward physically and mentally.

Based on the above, my gut feeling/hope is that Hayward will slowly break out in the coming months.

The recent games also seem to confirm the above, having taken a step back from being p---ed off at the losses - he'll have flashes, and the flashes will come more and more frequent. In the Grizz win, he looked quite agile and healthy - this makes sense the Grizz are a notoriously slow and deliberate team, and adjusting to the pace of the NBA is the one of the most difficult things for players to get used to by all accounts. I wasn't able to watch the Spurs and Rockets games - but the Spurs are great at picking on weakest links, while the Rockets are a fast paced team.

I think people forget that it took Paul George almost two years to recover from his broken leg. He came back a full year later for the last few games of the season and looked entirely mediocre. I expect Hayward to be back by next year, and he will hopefully be back by the playoffs of this year. Until then, though, he has to take his lumps. It sucks now, but it will make his poster dunks all that much sweeter later. (And, yes, Hayward could really get up before. He dunked more than George or Butler the year before he signed with the Celtics. Check Youtube if you don't believe me. He had some really impressive dunks over big men while in Utah.)


horrible comparison. First, Paul George played about 13 minutes a game. You cannot make a factual statement that this is the reason why Hayward sucks. He looks horrible and is playing regular NBA minutes.

Paul George came back the last few games  season for the Pacers and played 14 minutes a game trying to get some game play in.

Who knows what Paul's preparation was.

Hayward came in the start and ready to go, and has stunk it up.

NVM him never being better than George anyway/

George played 13 mpg after an equally (or even less) horrific injury and no complications. He had the entire offseason AND 7/8ths of the NBA season to prepare. This is evidence of rust and athletic limitation, and George was arguably a less athletically reliant player than Hayward (George was a lazy three-point chucker in his last few Pacer years). His was a clean break of the leg.

Hayward had a second surgery that took away his offseason and early training camp. I am adamant that most severe injuries to anything below the waist take NBA players two full years to recover from athletically. This hold true for George's leg, Rondo's ACL, Rose's meniscus tears, Zach Lavine's ACL, and many other injuries. Even Mike Conley is shooting a career-worse 41.9% from the field in the year of increased perimeter scoring. (The only year he had with a lower FG% was last, which was cut short after 12 games due to an Achilles tear.)

These minutes are Hayward's only chance at recovery if we want him near peak form for the playoffs. The wait will be worth it, hopefully this year but definitely next.

Good reality check here...we might have to expect an additional year of this. Though, of course, injuries differ case-by-case. Hayward playing almost every game this season is quite promising.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #140 on: January 02, 2019, 09:00:53 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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What are the alternatives really? Bench him? We've already done that. Trade him? Good luck selling that idea to CBS and/or trying to sign max free agents in the future. Not to mention the fact that his contract may very well be untradable at the moment.

Give the guy as much time as he needs. Personally speaking, I'm still confident that he 'll return to his old self (although it may take a bit more time than what we expected).

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #141 on: January 02, 2019, 09:38:15 AM »

Offline Rakulp

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What are the alternatives really? Bench him? We've already done that. Trade him? Good luck selling that idea to CBS and/or trying to sign max free agents in the future. Not to mention the fact that his contract may very well be untradable at the moment.

Give the guy as much time as he needs. Personally speaking, I'm still confident that he 'll return to his old self (although it may take a bit more time than what we expected).

Wholeheartedly agree.

How much time is enough?  Until it is.  Injuries, horrific ones, are part of sports.  Sometimes the mental and emotional pain is greater than the physical pain.

We live in a world with so little patience and we believe that everything can be measured on a calendar.  As long as he is under contract, Brad has faith in him, and he shows no signs of "giving up", then I will have patience as he continues to move on from that terrible day of last year.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #142 on: January 02, 2019, 09:40:15 AM »

Offline Silky

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Despite scoring 0 points Hayward's net rating was still +5.2 versus SA. He's a good basketball player that helps the team both offensively and defensively even when he's not scoring.

https://on.nba.com/2R5rV4Y

Im tired of the last resorts being the  net rating crap. Enough of that. You can do that with Rozier too, he had a streak where he was a net rating in like 8 games in a row. Who cares about that, Hayward sucks , stop making excuses for his horrid play.

+10000
Hayward sucked in that Spurs game and has been sucking the last month tbh.
He is done.. Aint no coming back to being all star Hayward.. He is mentally weak and has no confidence in his game anymore... He just happy that is being paid his 30 million and will gladly play out his contract with Boston and make out as a bandit.. Cant trade him, can't even give him for free... He is what he is. For me evenif he recovers he will peak out at 15 ppg 4reb 3 ast.. Not exactly stellar for the duration of his max contract.. Those are Evan Turner like numbers.

There is always a market for all players.

I would wager that a deal around Hayward/Whiteside could be worked out.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #143 on: January 02, 2019, 09:48:32 AM »

Offline mef730

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Despite scoring 0 points Hayward's net rating was still +5.2 versus SA. He's a good basketball player that helps the team both offensively and defensively even when he's not scoring.

https://on.nba.com/2R5rV4Y

Im tired of the last resorts being the  net rating crap. Enough of that. You can do that with Rozier too, he had a streak where he was a net rating in like 8 games in a row. Who cares about that, Hayward sucks , stop making excuses for his horrid play.

+10000
Hayward sucked in that Spurs game and has been sucking the last month tbh.
He is done.. Aint no coming back to being all star Hayward.. He is mentally weak and has no confidence in his game anymore... He just happy that is being paid his 30 million and will gladly play out his contract with Boston and make out as a bandit.. Cant trade him, can't even give him for free... He is what he is. For me evenif he recovers he will peak out at 15 ppg 4reb 3 ast.. Not exactly stellar for the duration of his max contract.. Those are Evan Turner like numbers.

There is always a market for all players.

I would wager that a deal around Hayward/Whiteside could be worked out.

Welcome to CS! 2 TPs for joining.

But -1 for Hayward/Whiteside. Net +1. ;)

I was originally hoping for GH to be back to form by the all-star break. I'd say it's going to be longer than that.

Mike

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #144 on: January 02, 2019, 09:59:16 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Despite scoring 0 points Hayward's net rating was still +5.2 versus SA. He's a good basketball player that helps the team both offensively and defensively even when he's not scoring.

https://on.nba.com/2R5rV4Y

Im tired of the last resorts being the  net rating crap. Enough of that. You can do that with Rozier too, he had a streak where he was a net rating in like 8 games in a row. Who cares about that, Hayward sucks , stop making excuses for his horrid play.

+10000
Hayward sucked in that Spurs game and has been sucking the last month tbh.
He is done.. Aint no coming back to being all star Hayward.. He is mentally weak and has no confidence in his game anymore... He just happy that is being paid his 30 million and will gladly play out his contract with Boston and make out as a bandit.. Cant trade him, can't even give him for free... He is what he is. For me evenif he recovers he will peak out at 15 ppg 4reb 3 ast.. Not exactly stellar for the duration of his max contract.. Those are Evan Turner like numbers.
This is honestly just a laughable take. You do realise his rebound and assist numbers are already currently than what you have as his peak numbers?
When he starts returning to his shooting averages and average free throw rate his points will increase. If he was hitting his career marks in his shooting splits and free throw rate he'd be averaging 12/5/3.5 in 26MPG. If he was averaging his career MPG he'd be hovering at around 14.3/6/4, and that's assuming he doesn't get more involved in the offence, which is a nonsensical assumption. He will most likely fluctuate between 16/6/5 and 18/7/6 during his peak here.

Your continuing underselling of the severity of his injury, his secondary (and unforeseen) surgery which setback a considerable portion of his recovery in the offseason, and our team's glaring lack of defined roles (which has impacted on GH perhaps more than anyone, except for JB) is just astonishing. It is such flawed analysis
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Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #145 on: January 02, 2019, 10:06:33 AM »

Offline ederson

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Nobody really knows if GH gets back to 100% but losing patience after 3 months is ridiculous.

gouki88 said it best
Quote
Your continuing underselling of the severity of his injury, his secondary (and unforeseen) surgery which setback a considerable portion of his recovery in the offseason

GH had a freak injury but yeah lets act like it was a normal usual injury and send to a retirement home. 

It's very possible he will turn into Parsons but take a look at how long took other players to recover and then adjust your expectations cause in 3 months we are expecting for miracles.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #146 on: January 02, 2019, 10:13:51 AM »

Offline tonydelk

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I think Hayward is getting close.  He's making plays here and there that help with his confidence.  His playmaking and D have been getting better and better.  It's his shot making that has been a struggle.  He's missing wide open chances that he usually buries.  That's all in his legs and conditioning.  I think by the playoffs we will see him close to form but to get the Hayward we signed it won't be until next year.  I would say it takes two years from time of injury to get back to where you were.  If Heyward can start hitting those open shots no one complains.  You can see that he is down on himself and loses confidence in his shot quickly because he cares.  I know the Smart and Morris experiment has been working but I believe it's time to put Gordon and Brown back in the starting lineup.  This will be the best way to help their confidence going forward.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #147 on: January 02, 2019, 09:26:23 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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He looks good tonight. A nice dunk, multiple 3’s and multiple FTs along with the usual passing and solid D.
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Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #148 on: January 02, 2019, 09:48:35 PM »

Offline bopna

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I just wish we get this version of Hayward each game...problem is when Kyrie comes back, he is content on camping in the baseline or not aggresive to the hoop.

Re: How much longer do we need to give hayward?
« Reply #149 on: January 02, 2019, 09:56:37 PM »

Offline cman88

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He looks good tonight. A nice dunk, multiple 3’s and multiple FTs along with the usual passing and solid D.

its nights like tonight that make me frustrated when he acts timid out there. we need his scoring.

But hopefully all these drives to the hoop make him gain confidence.