C's players only meeting

[SparzWizard]

I remember the Heat and their Big 3 had a players-only meeting back in the 2010-2011 season, eventually, things were resolved.

But only applicable if the Celtics had a LeBron-type player.

[celtics4ever33]

I watched all the interviews live on Celtics Post Game last night. Pretty sure Kyrie was referring to Tatum, Brown and Rozier when he said he's not necessarily doing the role he would selfishly want for him to get as many shots as possible or score as many points as possible but he's trying to do what he needs to do for the team as a whole to be better and to celebrate other players' success as if they were his own. The implication being that it's not just the young guys being told to play lesser roles.

It's obviously easier for Kyrie and Gordon to subordinate themselves for the good of the team because they've played in the league for years and made names for themselves. We have young guys like Jayson who has been anointed an All-Star and future MVP and feels the need to live up to it. Then we have someone like Jaylen who until last year was first cab off the rank when it came to being an up and coming star, his stat line was better than Jayson's and he had a clear role, then this year he's fallen behind Jayson (and Gordon) in the pecking order. Think about being in a job where you got hired before someone else and was on a fast track but then they hired someone else younger who leapfrogged you for promotion. You have to have pretty strong self-esteem to not take that personally. Then you have Rozier who wants to prove that he deserves a starting spot and he knows that end of day GMs will look at his stat line when deciding what contract to give him.

Then outside those young guys you have Gordon, coming back from a horrific injury, consciously aware of the fact that this team is essentially the same team as it was last year except that he is the new addition, I'm sure he's feeling like "is this all my fault? I came in and ruined the chemistry and to make things worse my progress has been a lot slower than anyone wants". The team he's now playing in is very different from the team he joined when he was expected to be the 2nd scoring option behind IT. Now there's Jayson who's become the second scoring option and takes 14 shots a game, Morris and Brown 10-11 each, Gordon is actually 6th in FGA with 9.8. You're not going to average 18ppg which everyone expects him to unless he starts to take 5 more shots a game which is 5 less for someone else, unless they increase their scoring average from 111 to 120. At this point for anyone to improve their stat line it's going to come from someone else.

I haven't even talked about Horford, but he's the type of player who doesn't, and has never, cared about his stat line or how many shots he takes, no matter how many people criticize him for "not being a 20-10 player like all the other All Star and max contract players out there". Same with Smart, he doesn't care how many points he makes, because he adds value in ways that Danny appreciated, because Danny probably doesn't use the typical metric that most fans use.

This is an unusual problem. It's an issue of too much talent and the challenge is how to synthesize it into a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts, where each piece making up the whole is individually lesser than if that piece had not been part of the whole. We have at least 7 players (Kyrie, Jayson, Jaylen, Gordon, Terry, Al, Marcus) who could potentially average at least 20ppg if they were the No1 scoring option playing for some also ran team. They're being asked to be lesser than what they can be so that the team as a whole can be greater than it is.

Not a bad post , but wrong on that by a mile

Morris, Terry, Al, jaylen, Jayson right now, and Gordon right now would not average 20 if they were the #1 for various reasons. Main one being that none of them have all star capability at all or at the moment.


Only 1 player is capable of that as a #1.....

[celtics4ever33]

I think we celtics fans talk too much.... and have too high standards for our team... the issue is this..  we have a team with more players that think that are first options than role players... irwing hayward horford brown tatum morris rosier can't accept a secondary role to my opinion.. shoot more pass less... and there are no bigs who scare opponents inside.. only williams could be one in 2 years.. so no inside defense.. not good passing game... jnjuries... solution? Wait till team is healthy.. trade at least 2 guys.. rosier morris?? Get a playmaker who passes first and a big who can block

Its tough for a celtic fan, denial sucks, especially when you love a team. Reality is someone or some guys have to go, and another reality is that its not all high fives and fun, players are thinking about more than just basketball. Its the sad reality.

[hwangjini_1]

I think we celtics fans talk too much.... and have too high standards for our team... the issue is this..  we have a team with more players that think that are first options than role players... irwing hayward horford brown tatum morris rosier can't accept a secondary role to my opinion.. shoot more pass less... and there are no bigs who scare opponents inside.. only williams could be one in 2 years.. so no inside defense.. not good passing game... jnjuries... solution? Wait till team is healthy.. trade at least 2 guys.. rosier morris?? Get a playmaker who passes first and a big who can block

Its tough for a celtic fan, denial sucks, especially when you love a team. Reality is someone or some guys have to go, and another reality is that its not all high fives and fun, players are thinking about more than just basketball. Its the sad reality.

i can see you are new to cs. welcome.

may i suggest that when you post you expand your points a bit and add more specifics? for example, instead of a vague "some guys have to go" your post would be stronger were you to post WHY some players have to "go"; what do you mean by "go"? (trades? if so, whom and how and to where and what returns?); which players specifically should be buying tickets out of town and why them and not others? and, in the end, what do think the team should look like after all the suggested going and coming?

thanks.

[Somebody]

Hope we stop playing like Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. after this.

[Jiri Welsch]

It’s not consequential, but Tatum is averaging 17 a game right now. He definitely could average 20 on another team.

Anyway, my problem with Tatum (besides his soft drives and subsequent complaining) is his lack of defense. Sometimes he’s just not giving an effort there when he should be.

[RockinRyA]

I love how the posters are putting the blame on us starting without a true Center despite the fact that we raced to a very strong start.

Its like they dont know who to blame so they start on the first unconventional thing they see.

[Roy H.]

I love how the posters are putting the blame on us starting without a true Center despite the fact that we raced to a very strong start.

Its like they dont know who to blame so they start on the first unconventional thing they see.

Against the Bucks, the biggest reason for the loss is that Kyrie, Hayward, Smart and Tatum combined to shoot 17-for-56 (5-for-19 3PT).

The "very strong start" lasted three minutes (outscoring the Buck 10-1), followed immediately by the Bucks going on a 16-0 run against those same starters.  When Brad made his first substitutions, it was 16-10, with the Bucks at the free throw line.

Not having two starters (Horford / Morris) and a primary big man backup (Baynes) can't be overlooked.  Interior defense and rebounding both matter. 

P.S.  I do agree that Robert "Sean" Williams isn't the answer at this point.  He knows how to block shots but not how to play defense (thus "Sean").

[playdream]

As Big AL said from the beginning: guys need to sacrifice for this team to reach their potential, so far we have seen guys unwilling or unable to do it, like Rozier and Brown

[tazzmaniac]

As Big AL said from the beginning: guys need to sacrifice for this team to reach their potential, so far we have seen guys unwilling or unable to do it, like Rozier and Brown

It's easy for Al to say that when he's on the downside of his career and already has gotten his big pay day. 

[tstorey_97]

The Celtics most successful line up:

Irving
Smart
Morris
Horford
Baynes

Veteran players who know their roles on a defined line up...
Irving/Horford/Morris score the GD points, Baynes and Smart make sure they can.


Bench
Hayward
Tatum
Brown
Rozier
Theis

These guys learn how to play together and then, with the starters. They all have "problems" right now and would be better off figuring out some kind of "bench identity." I like Hayward with the ball, but statwise, he isn't working out that well there either.

Rozier was the point guard that helped beat the Bucks and the 76ers in the playoffs last year. Of course the guy is flawed, but, he was best when running the floor and knowing his role.

Stevens has no idea what anyone's role is on this team. "Give the ball to Kyrie" evidently needs something added to it to work.

Never in the history of the Boston Celtics has a point guard carried a team to a title. It is a team sport and, without size and punch on the frontcourt? It's not a team. it's a bunch of guys who don't know what to do.

[Rosco917]

As Big AL said from the beginning: guys need to sacrifice for this team to reach their potential, so far we have seen guys unwilling or unable to do it, like Rozier and Brown

It's difficult to "sacrifice" when you have no idea how. When you tell a very young player to be aggressive they think to go to the rim harder more often...score more. They don't think to make the simple right play, play hard, and just exercise the fundamentals until you feel your way.

Both Brown and Rosier are playing paranoid in this way. Brown hears the rumblings, don't think he's impervious to them. Terry, down deep knows he's most likely not staying in Boston.

Both players are pressing, showcasing. Both players also know their minutes are precious and hard to come by. 

[Big333223]

As Big AL said from the beginning: guys need to sacrifice for this team to reach their potential, so far we have seen guys unwilling or unable to do it, like Rozier and Brown

It's easy for Al to say that when he's on the downside of his career and already has gotten his big pay day.

I think that's something that Al has lived his entire career not just now.

[Ogaju]

I love how the posters are putting the blame on us starting without a true Center despite the fact that we raced to a very strong start.

Its like they dont know who to blame so they start on the first unconventional thing they see.

this narrative about a very strong start needs to stop... what game did  you guys watch?

did you watch anything after the Bucks called timeout ABSOLUTELY no interior defense. NONE!!!!

The Bucks took everything inside and this forced the entire Celtics team to collapse enabling those kick-outs that led to threeees.

[keevsnick]

I mean Rozier is averaging 2.6 assists a game as a point guard. Brown is at 1.5, and Tatum is at 1.7 despite playing 30+ minutes and holding the ball more than Rozier and Brown. None of those numbers are great, but at the same time I'm not really hugely concerned by them either. A) When and how to pass is often the last skill the develops for young players, especially young guys who up till this point in their career have never operated a lot with the ball in their hands as a play maker, all three of those guys got their first taste of I last year in a much more iso heavy setting (NBA playoffs). B) There's stuff to figure out role wise that has nothing to do with selfish or unselfish play. Those three young guys took this team to game seven of the ECF, maybe it is on them to readjust this year but its gonna take some time to figure out. Its further complicated by the fact that Brown is not hitting shots, and Hayward has himself been pretty bad this year which makes it harder to figure out the roles. C) Its not like Marcus Morris is exactly a great or wlling passer either, he has 1.5 assits a game. Bottom line is their best passers are great shooter (Hayward, Smart) and their best shooter aren't great play makers (Tatum, Morris) and that makes it hard to run an offense.

The TLDR version is this. I don't think its selfish play that is hurting the Celtics. Its a combination of the young guys not yet having the proper skills. With Brown its the fact he doesn't make the right play off the drive. With Rozier its he can't get the ball to the roll guy (or thro a lob) With Tatum its a lack of ability or willingness to get to the rim and too many isos. Combine that with confusion about roles. Combine both of those with key guys struggling and you get to where we are now.