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Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2018, 12:12:20 PM »

Offline MasterEmile

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I don't get the criticism for Tatum, after the first couple of weeks where he shot awful (and contested mid range) he has been really solid for the rest of the way. Other than Morris he has been our most consistent player scoring 16-22 ppg on great efficiency while not really hogging the ball much and also rebounding at a very decent rate for a 3. I think his problem is he's not being aggressive or selfish enough.

Also side note: this same bucks team DESTROYED full power golden state on their home floor, and while not really an excuse we were missing our starting 4 and 5 AND our backup center who if everyone was healthy were going to play most front court minutes. I want to see us at full strength while they miss the same number of players...

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2018, 12:18:45 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Who would you rather have as a coach?

I'd take Doc over Stevens all day, every day. Too bad that ship sailed a long time ago.

lol ..... that was a joke, right? If it wasnt...well LOL.

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2018, 12:21:48 PM »

Offline LilRip

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I don't get the criticism for Tatum, after the first couple of weeks where he shot awful (and contested mid range) he has been really solid for the rest of the way. Other than Morris he has been our most consistent player scoring 16-22 ppg on great efficiency while not really hogging the ball much and also rebounding at a very decent rate for a 3. I think his problem is he's not being aggressive or selfish enough.

Also side note: this same bucks team DESTROYED full power golden state on their home floor, and while not really an excuse we were missing our starting 4 and 5 AND our backup center who if everyone was healthy were going to play most front court minutes. I want to see us at full strength while they miss the same number of players...

On the contrary, I think he’s been one of our more selfish and daresay, entitled players (Rozier aside). He complains about every non-call and has stopped the offense way more than most guys outside Rozier.

The guys who aren’t aggressive or selfish enough? Hayward and Brown both come to mind for me. Brown does it in stretches and when he’s been aggressive going to the rim (or in the post) he’s generally found success imo.

The guys who have really bought into the team and seem the most comfy out there? Kyrie, Smart, Morris, Horford, Baynes, and Theis. The latter 2 aren’t the most talented but they do seem to know their role well when they’re out there.
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Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2018, 12:23:06 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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As good as his numbers are, I haven’t been the biggest fan of Tatum this year. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but it wouldn’t surprise me if:

1. His points in the paint are down
2. His iso attempts are way up
3. His contested mid range shots are up
4. His points off assisted field goals are down
5. His shooting % from a catch and shoot/assist is consistent

Hes been a ball stopper on offense most of the time. It seems like each trip down, he’s trying to “school his defender” rather than making the simple play. He’s playing like Kobe on a bad Lakers team but without the defense or the court vision.

Kobe loves the Lakers ...probably 'hates' the Celtics...Kobe is the last person Tatum should have consulted.

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2018, 12:24:39 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Who would you rather have as a coach?

I'd take Doc over Stevens all day, every day. Too bad that ship sailed a long time ago.

lol ..... that was a joke, right? If it wasnt...well LOL.

Doc has proven himself to be the superior coach, period. 

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2018, 12:30:01 PM »

Offline LilRip

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As good as his numbers are, I haven’t been the biggest fan of Tatum this year. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but it wouldn’t surprise me if:

1. His points in the paint are down
2. His iso attempts are way up
3. His contested mid range shots are up
4. His points off assisted field goals are down
5. His shooting % from a catch and shoot/assist is consistent

Hes been a ball stopper on offense most of the time. It seems like each trip down, he’s trying to “school his defender” rather than making the simple play. He’s playing like Kobe on a bad Lakers team but without the defense or the court vision.

Kobe loves the Lakers ...probably 'hates' the Celtics...Kobe is the last person Tatum should have consulted.

I get where you’re coming from and idk what Kobe said to Tatum but from watching all the games, it sure looks like Tatum has something Kobe-esque he wants to prove when he’s out there. Kind of like a “throw any defense at me and I’ll shred it”-kind of mentality. Which is great when it works (especially in low shot clock situations), but is usually less efficient than team ball.
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Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2018, 01:04:36 PM »

Offline ozgod

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I watched all the interviews live on Celtics Post Game last night. Pretty sure Kyrie was referring to Tatum, Brown and Rozier when he said he's not necessarily doing the role he would selfishly want for him to get as many shots as possible or score as many points as possible but he's trying to do what he needs to do for the team as a whole to be better and to celebrate other players' success as if they were his own. The implication being that it's not just the young guys being told to play lesser roles.

It's obviously easier for Kyrie and Gordon to subordinate themselves for the good of the team because they've played in the league for years and made names for themselves. We have young guys like Jayson who has been anointed an All-Star and future MVP and feels the need to live up to it. Then we have someone like Jaylen who until last year was first cab off the rank when it came to being an up and coming star, his stat line was better than Jayson's and he had a clear role, then this year he's fallen behind Jayson (and Gordon) in the pecking order. Think about being in a job where you got hired before someone else and was on a fast track but then they hired someone else younger who leapfrogged you for promotion. You have to have pretty strong self-esteem to not take that personally. Then you have Rozier who wants to prove that he deserves a starting spot and he knows that end of day GMs will look at his stat line when deciding what contract to give him.

Then outside those young guys you have Gordon, coming back from a horrific injury, consciously aware of the fact that this team is essentially the same team as it was last year except that he is the new addition, I'm sure he's feeling like "is this all my fault? I came in and ruined the chemistry and to make things worse my progress has been a lot slower than anyone wants". The team he's now playing in is very different from the team he joined when he was expected to be the 2nd scoring option behind IT. Now there's Jayson who's become the second scoring option and takes 14 shots a game, Morris and Brown 10-11 each, Gordon is actually 6th in FGA with 9.8. You're not going to average 18ppg which everyone expects him to unless he starts to take 5 more shots a game which is 5 less for someone else, unless they increase their scoring average from 111 to 120. At this point for anyone to improve their stat line it's going to come from someone else.

I haven't even talked about Horford, but he's the type of player who doesn't, and has never, cared about his stat line or how many shots he takes, no matter how many people criticize him for "not being a 20-10 player like all the other All Star and max contract players out there". Same with Smart, he doesn't care how many points he makes, because he adds value in ways that Danny appreciated, because Danny probably doesn't use the typical metric that most fans use.

This is an unusual problem. It's an issue of too much talent and the challenge is how to synthesize it into a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts, where each piece making up the whole is individually lesser than if that piece had not been part of the whole. We have at least 7 players (Kyrie, Jayson, Jaylen, Gordon, Terry, Al, Marcus) who could potentially average at least 20ppg if they were the No1 scoring option playing for some also ran team. They're being asked to be lesser than what they can be so that the team as a whole can be greater than it is.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2018, 01:26:08 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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so we have too many Generals and not enough foot soldiers...that on Ainge.

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2018, 01:30:31 PM »

Offline MasterEmile

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I don't get the criticism for Tatum, after the first couple of weeks where he shot awful (and contested mid range) he has been really solid for the rest of the way. Other than Morris he has been our most consistent player scoring 16-22 ppg on great efficiency while not really hogging the ball much and also rebounding at a very decent rate for a 3. I think his problem is he's not being aggressive or selfish enough.

Also side note: this same bucks team DESTROYED full power golden state on their home floor, and while not really an excuse we were missing our starting 4 and 5 AND our backup center who if everyone was healthy were going to play most front court minutes. I want to see us at full strength while they miss the same number of players...

On the contrary, I think he’s been one of our more selfish and daresay, entitled players (Rozier aside). He complains about every non-call and has stopped the offense way more than most guys outside Rozier.

The guys who aren’t aggressive or selfish enough? Hayward and Brown both come to mind for me. Brown does it in stretches and when he’s been aggressive going to the rim (or in the post) he’s generally found success imo.

The guys who have really bought into the team and seem the most comfy out there? Kyrie, Smart, Morris, Horford, Baynes, and Theis. The latter 2 aren’t the most talented but they do seem to know their role well when they’re out there.

Well from the eye test, Tatum is going iso in 2 situations:
-He has a mismatch and the offense gives him the ball so he can post up smaller player (designed by the offense) kind of what he and brown did against the Sixers guards in last year's playoffs.

-End of shot clock situations were the play broke down and the offense gives him the ball so he can bail them out . What I also think is the product of the offense or at least what Brad tells the team to do when a play breaks down. (Tatum or Irving)

His shooting percentages (not advanced numbers) shows that he is being really efficient and while his iso numbers went up, it is natural with the increased role he has.

 

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2018, 01:41:56 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Who would you rather have as a coach?

I'd take Doc over Stevens all day, every day. Too bad that ship sailed a long time ago.

lol ..... that was a joke, right? If it wasnt...well LOL.

You saw Doc Rivers slippin' the other night. That was hilarious


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I am the Master of Panic.

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2018, 01:50:13 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I've been disappointed with both Tatum and Brown's growth as playmakers. 1.7 apg for Tatum when he's taking almost 14 shots a night isn't acceptable.

Jaylen's role is a little different and he's taking fewer shots but he still has pretty bad tunnel vision when he's trying to attack.

Tatum, though, is the bigger disappointment in his respect probably because he's the more skilled player and getting more opportunities so I expect more. I've seen him incorporate James Harden step-back. I'd like to see him incorporate some of Harden's ability to bend the defense in a way that gets his teammates open and then find that open man.

EDIT: That said, I don't blame the losses on them. This whole team doesn't look like they trust one another.
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Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2018, 01:51:54 PM »

Offline ozgod

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so we have too many Generals and not enough foot soldiers...that on Ainge.

I'm guessing he didn't expect some of the footsoldiers to become Captains so quickly :D
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2018, 01:54:51 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Who would you rather have as a coach?

I'd take Doc over Stevens all day, every day. Too bad that ship sailed a long time ago.

lol ..... that was a joke, right? If it wasnt...well LOL.

You saw Doc Rivers slippin' the other night. That was hilarious

What is particularly funny is that  not even Doc Rivers thinks he can do a better job.

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2018, 02:06:27 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Seems pointless, unless somebody had an idea regarding how to grow a couple of our swings into centers.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: C's players only meeting
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2018, 02:33:50 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I watched all the interviews live on Celtics Post Game last night. Pretty sure Kyrie was referring to Tatum, Brown and Rozier when he said he's not necessarily doing the role he would selfishly want for him to get as many shots as possible or score as many points as possible but he's trying to do what he needs to do for the team as a whole to be better and to celebrate other players' success as if they were his own. The implication being that it's not just the young guys being told to play lesser roles.

It's obviously easier for Kyrie and Gordon to subordinate themselves for the good of the team because they've played in the league for years and made names for themselves. We have young guys like Jayson who has been anointed an All-Star and future MVP and feels the need to live up to it. Then we have someone like Jaylen who until last year was first cab off the rank when it came to being an up and coming star, his stat line was better than Jayson's and he had a clear role, then this year he's fallen behind Jayson (and Gordon) in the pecking order. Think about being in a job where you got hired before someone else and was on a fast track but then they hired someone else younger who leapfrogged you for promotion. You have to have pretty strong self-esteem to not take that personally. Then you have Rozier who wants to prove that he deserves a starting spot and he knows that end of day GMs will look at his stat line when deciding what contract to give him.

Then outside those young guys you have Gordon, coming back from a horrific injury, consciously aware of the fact that this team is essentially the same team as it was last year except that he is the new addition, I'm sure he's feeling like "is this all my fault? I came in and ruined the chemistry and to make things worse my progress has been a lot slower than anyone wants". The team he's now playing in is very different from the team he joined when he was expected to be the 2nd scoring option behind IT. Now there's Jayson who's become the second scoring option and takes 14 shots a game, Morris and Brown 10-11 each, Gordon is actually 6th in FGA with 9.8. You're not going to average 18ppg which everyone expects him to unless he starts to take 5 more shots a game which is 5 less for someone else, unless they increase their scoring average from 111 to 120. At this point for anyone to improve their stat line it's going to come from someone else.

I haven't even talked about Horford, but he's the type of player who doesn't, and has never, cared about his stat line or how many shots he takes, no matter how many people criticize him for "not being a 20-10 player like all the other All Star and max contract players out there". Same with Smart, he doesn't care how many points he makes, because he adds value in ways that Danny appreciated, because Danny probably doesn't use the typical metric that most fans use.

This is an unusual problem. It's an issue of too much talent and the challenge is how to synthesize it into a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts, where each piece making up the whole is individually lesser than if that piece had not been part of the whole. We have at least 7 players (Kyrie, Jayson, Jaylen, Gordon, Terry, Al, Marcus) who could potentially average at least 20ppg if they were the No1 scoring option playing for some also ran team. They're being asked to be lesser than what they can be so that the team as a whole can be greater than it is.
You're overestimating the talent.  Horford's career avg is 14.1 ppg and his highest season avg is 18.6 ppg.  Whichever Marcus you were referring neither is anywhere close to a 20 ppg player.  Rozier might stat stuff to get 20 ppg on a really bad team but no decent team would want him as their #1 scoring option.  I don't see Jaylen as a 20 ppg player either.  Personally I don't see Kyrie or Hayward as #1 scoring options on a championship team.  They are #2 options to me.  I think Tatum does have to potential to be the #1 option.