Author Topic: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?  (Read 1743 times)

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Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2018, 11:21:10 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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They should be able to trade Wall if they want to.  He is a star player.  If I were the Knicks for example, I would try to get him.  Courtney Lee, Mudiay (or Frank Ntilikina), and a first round pick, perhaps with some protections?

But he's not a good star player.

I am not sure what you mean but it is all subjective or qualitative.  For example, you can start with something like this; I would rather have Wall than Jimmy Butler.

Yeah but, that'd be the wrong choice.

Leadership: Wall has long been a mercurial leader, capable of astonishing highs, but in terms of a day-to-day culture I think we can see here that he's pretty terrible at that.

Gettin' Buckets: Wall is good at getting his own stats usually but his displays of outright dominance are getting fewer and far between. In a league where points are going up, while his own production is steady, his team's production with him on the floor is at the bottom of guys who produce per game counting stats on a level with Wall. The only guy whose team does worse with him on the floor in the sample size (20ppg, 5apg, 3rpg) is Devin Booker, whose team is in an active tank.

Playing Defense: Wall for a couple of years pulled a Kobe and coasted on a reputation that said he was a good defender based on past numbers when he was putting up mediocre or even bad numbers in the present. The secret is out now; Wall is not a mediocre defender, he's not a bad defender, he's a terrible inactive defender who doesn't give effort.

HE MOVES VERY LITTLE AND IT IS CONCERNING.

I agree that Wall has flaws, as does Butler.  I was just trying to create a more definitive metric than "good star" or "not good star".  Contracts are always a factor in the real world but in the hypothetical forum world, you can simply discuss who is better.  I think both are really good players, fairly comparable in talent and historical production.  But Wall, when focused, when on his game, can take over (as I have seen him do in some playoff games) more so than Butler can.  For that, I give Wall a sight edge over Butler but the main point is that Wall is a comparable talent to Butler and I would expect teams to be interested in Wall.

Yeah I don't agree. Butler brings the passion every night, and he's a true elite 2-way player. There are only like 10 of those guys in the league and Wall isn't one.

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Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2018, 11:27:13 AM »

Offline manl_lui

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for some reason, i can see a team like the Knicks go for Wall, maybe the Lakers too

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2018, 11:36:29 AM »

Offline 10610786d

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They should be able to trade Wall if they want to.  He is a star player.  If I were the Knicks for example, I would try to get him.  Courtney Lee, Mudiay (or Frank Ntilikina), and a first round pick, perhaps with some protections?

But he's not a good star player.

I am not sure what you mean but it is all subjective or qualitative.  For example, you can start with something like this; I would rather have Wall than Jimmy Butler.

Yeah but, that'd be the wrong choice.

Leadership: Wall has long been a mercurial leader, capable of astonishing highs, but in terms of a day-to-day culture I think we can see here that he's pretty terrible at that.

Gettin' Buckets: Wall is good at getting his own stats usually but his displays of outright dominance are getting fewer and far between. In a league where points are going up, while his own production is steady, his team's production with him on the floor is at the bottom of guys who produce per game counting stats on a level with Wall. The only guy whose team does worse with him on the floor in the sample size (20ppg, 5apg, 3rpg) is Devin Booker, whose team is in an active tank.

Playing Defense: Wall for a couple of years pulled a Kobe and coasted on a reputation that said he was a good defender based on past numbers when he was putting up mediocre or even bad numbers in the present. The secret is out now; Wall is not a mediocre defender, he's not a bad defender, he's a terrible inactive defender who doesn't give effort.

HE MOVES VERY LITTLE AND IT IS CONCERNING.

I agree that Wall has flaws, as does Butler.  I was just trying to create a more definitive metric than "good star" or "not good star".  Contracts are always a factor in the real world but in the hypothetical forum world, you can simply discuss who is better.  I think both are really good players, fairly comparable in talent and historical production.  But Wall, when focused, when on his game, can take over (as I have seen him do in some playoff games) more so than Butler can.  For that, I give Wall a sight edge over Butler but the main point is that Wall is a comparable talent to Butler and I would expect teams to be interested in Wall.

Yeah I don't agree. Butler brings the passion every night, and he's a true elite 2-way player. There are only like 10 of those guys in the league and Wall isn't one.

A couple years back, John Wall was a defensive monster, but can't shoot on offense. Maybe now he could be a two way player with his newfound jumpshot, even with slightly less athleticism.

Though, talking about these hypotheticals without talking about contracts is pointless.

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2018, 11:48:48 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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They should be able to trade Wall if they want to.  He is a star player.  If I were the Knicks for example, I would try to get him.  Courtney Lee, Mudiay (or Frank Ntilikina), and a first round pick, perhaps with some protections?

But he's not a good star player.

I am not sure what you mean but it is all subjective or qualitative.  For example, you can start with something like this; I would rather have Wall than Jimmy Butler.

Yeah but, that'd be the wrong choice.

Leadership: Wall has long been a mercurial leader, capable of astonishing highs, but in terms of a day-to-day culture I think we can see here that he's pretty terrible at that.

Gettin' Buckets: Wall is good at getting his own stats usually but his displays of outright dominance are getting fewer and far between. In a league where points are going up, while his own production is steady, his team's production with him on the floor is at the bottom of guys who produce per game counting stats on a level with Wall. The only guy whose team does worse with him on the floor in the sample size (20ppg, 5apg, 3rpg) is Devin Booker, whose team is in an active tank.

Playing Defense: Wall for a couple of years pulled a Kobe and coasted on a reputation that said he was a good defender based on past numbers when he was putting up mediocre or even bad numbers in the present. The secret is out now; Wall is not a mediocre defender, he's not a bad defender, he's a terrible inactive defender who doesn't give effort.

HE MOVES VERY LITTLE AND IT IS CONCERNING.

I agree that Wall has flaws, as does Butler.  I was just trying to create a more definitive metric than "good star" or "not good star".  Contracts are always a factor in the real world but in the hypothetical forum world, you can simply discuss who is better.  I think both are really good players, fairly comparable in talent and historical production.  But Wall, when focused, when on his game, can take over (as I have seen him do in some playoff games) more so than Butler can.  For that, I give Wall a sight edge over Butler but the main point is that Wall is a comparable talent to Butler and I would expect teams to be interested in Wall.

Yeah I don't agree. Butler brings the passion every night, and he's a true elite 2-way player. There are only like 10 of those guys in the league and Wall isn't one.

A couple years back, John Wall was a defensive monster, but can't shoot on offense. Maybe now he could be a two way player with his newfound jumpshot, even with slightly less athleticism.

Though, talking about these hypotheticals without talking about contracts is pointless.

Right now (this season), both Butler and Wall make about $20M.  Wall already has his extension getting him up in the $40M range for 4 years but isn't it likely that is what it is going to cost to keep Butler too?  Both player are about the same age (Wall 28, Butler 29).  I think people are rating Butler too high in general, I am not on that train to the same extent.  Perhaps that is why I see Wall as more comparable.    Washington probably won't get quite what Minni got in the trade but we'll see.  In my opinion, there are teams out there that should be trying to get him (Not the Celtics though of course).

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2018, 12:07:49 PM »

Offline 10610786d

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Right now (this season), both Butler and Wall make about $20M.  Wall already has his extension getting him up in the $40M range for 4 years but isn't it likely that is what it is going to cost to keep Butler too?  Both player are about the same age (Wall 28, Butler 29).  I think people are rating Butler too high in general, I am not on that train to the same extent.  Perhaps that is why I see Wall as more comparable.    Washington probably won't get quite what Minni got in the trade but we'll see.  In my opinion, there are teams out there that should be trying to get him (Not the Celtics though of course).

True. Probably like what Zach Lowe said - New Orleans should do it, but only if Anthony Davis tells New Orleans he'll definitely re-sign if they get Wall.

Similar situation in Philly. Their owner can't didn't want to keep being mediocre, and so they made the gamble.


Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2018, 12:16:11 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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by the way, as i read this thread i began to wonder just how much wall's salary is. so i looked it up and it is alot, stupid level alot.  :o


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Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2018, 12:40:11 PM »

Offline DrJasper

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I think the Miami heat should consider trading for wall, they have a lot of big contracts, no real star players and are unwilling to tank. Furthermore they have a great culture and coach in place to bring the best out of him.
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Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2018, 01:08:46 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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According to rumors, Dennis Smith Jr. might be available.

https://hoopshype.com/storyline/dennis-smith-trade/
Quote from: hoopshype via New York Times
(...) The instant emergence of the Dallas rookie Luka Doncic, combined with longstanding skepticism about Smith’s ability to flourish alongside Doncic in an off-the-ball capacity, has spawned the expectation among many executives that Smith will eventually be moved.

How about Wall to the Mavs for Smith Jr. + Matthews (salary filler) ?



http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ydfvzagk


Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2018, 06:48:01 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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My guess is that Wall doesn't get traded until next summer, after several teams strike out on free agents and decide they don't have a better use for their cap space.


This season, I imagine the only teams that might be interested in trading for Wall would be bad teams hoping to become respectable by upgrading at point guard.  Those teams (the Magic?) probably aren't going to be willing to give up much in the way of prospects or picks for him.
That's how I see it. I think if the Knicks land someone in free agency, like Butler, they will trade for someone like Wall and it'll naturally be terrible. Something like Hardaway Jr, Frank and a 1st

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2018, 07:36:11 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I have heard they are not getting many offers for Wall.

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2018, 08:18:53 AM »

Online Moranis

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My guess is that Wall doesn't get traded until next summer, after several teams strike out on free agents and decide they don't have a better use for their cap space.


This season, I imagine the only teams that might be interested in trading for Wall would be bad teams hoping to become respectable by upgrading at point guard.  Those teams (the Magic?) probably aren't going to be willing to give up much in the way of prospects or picks for him.
That's how I see it. I think if the Knicks land someone in free agency, like Butler, they will trade for someone like Wall and it'll naturally be terrible. Something like Hardaway Jr, Frank and a 1st
The problem is, his contract is about half right now what it will be in the summer, making him a lot easier to trade now. 

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2018, 08:37:29 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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I'm not sure why people think Wall has value. He doesn't have any as a result of his contract AND his play. The guy will put up raw numbers, but he has awful shot selection, dribbles the air out of the ball, defense is a 50/50 proposition, and plays with inconsistent effort. As a result the Wizards consistently play better when he's out. To read that people think that they'll get a 1st rd pick or a Dennis Smith for him is laughable. The Wizards will be the ones that will have to add assets in order for someone to take on Wall in a salary dump.

Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2018, 02:47:11 PM »

Online RodyTur10

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I have heard they are not getting many offers for Wall.

The problem is, his contract is about half right now what it will be in the summer, making him a lot easier to trade now.

I'm not sure why people think Wall has value. He doesn't have any as a result of his contract AND his play. The guy will put up raw numbers, but he has awful shot selection, dribbles the air out of the ball, defense is a 50/50 proposition, and plays with inconsistent effort. As a result the Wizards consistently play better when he's out. To read that people think that they'll get a 1st rd pick or a Dennis Smith for him is laughable. The Wizards will be the ones that will have to add assets in order for someone to take on Wall in a salary dump.

The Wizards aren't getting many offers, since ownership/management isn't really ready to break up the Wall/Beal partnership.

They see that things aren't going like they expected and have (probably) made the decision that they are open to make a change. Either trading away Porter for better role players, or trading away their franchise player for a another All Star or a package built around an upcoming star to rebuild.

In their view there haven't been good enough offers on the table to give up what they have: an underperforming team (with 2 All Stars) that still has a shot to make the playoffs. I don't think they're aware how dangerous it is for them to do nothing. And trading Oubre + Rivers for Ariza is still doing essentially nothing, but I'm sure they also don't realize that!

A GM that signs Mahinmi for 64/4 and Wall for 170/4 definitely isn't someone that looks longterm.

It most definitely is in the Wizards' interest to trade Wall before his extension kicks in. And they should listen to any offer they get. There's probably a chance to get something valuable out of a deal as well (a young player to develop, mid-late 1st), but the most value is to not cripple your franchise! Wait and they indeed have to give up assets to get rid of Wall's deal.

I believe Wizards' management will not be able to realize the full extent of their situation and continue this road and they'll burn for it. (And I will enjoy it)

Why should any other team trade for Wall then? Because in certain situations he could make a team better, where the rewards are greater than the cost. For example a team that has an All Star and wants to make an ultimate push for a title (examples: Lakers, Pelicans), an expensive mediocre team that needs improvement (examples: Pistons, Heat) or a team with a lot of cap space in need for a Point Guard (examples: Knicks, Suns, Magic).

So I think there could be a market for Wall if the Wizards are able to be realistic about his value.

 

   

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Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2018, 03:52:16 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Should the Knicks go after him or is that just the type of thing the Knicks have been doing forever, to their own detriment? I'm not sure.

But if Wall is truly not fetching interest, maybe the Knicks should try to get him on a deal center around Kanter at the deadline and then shut him down with an "injury" and hope that he and Porzingis entice Durant over the summer. The Knicks print money even when they're awful, they can afford Wall.
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Re: what are some of the offers for John Wall going to look like?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2018, 04:08:05 PM »

Online Moranis

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I still think Conley for Wall and Mahinmi makes a lot of sense for both teams. 

If the Spurs think a DeRozan/Wall backcourt could work, there is a trade to be made there for both teams as well.  Maybe something like Gasol and Mills for Wall and Howard.

Maybe the Wolves.  Porter and Wall for Wiggins and Teague.  Seems like a better fit around Towns for the Wolves and a better fit around Beal for the Wizards.

 

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