Author Topic: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle  (Read 2062 times)

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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2018, 10:13:35 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Does Moranis still think Baynes can't guard Embiid because he did well on him last night?

I was wondering about this. Baynes was great against him on both ends of the floor last night
21-14 C's when Baynes enters the game with 2:53 left in the 1st quarter, Sixers scored the next 7 points to end the quarter tied.  At 6:37 of the 2nd, Horford comes back in the C's are up 4, so the C's lost 3 points in 8 and a half minutes of Baynes in the first half.  C's ended the half up 5.  Baynes and Horford started the 2nd half together, when Baynes was pulled at 6:41, the C's were up 7 so they had extended the lead by 2.  Baynes came back in for the last 1:13 of the 3rd quarter and Boston went on a nice little run extending their lead by 5, which continued into the 4th quarter. 

So yeah, Boston played well overall late in the game with Baynes out there, but it took almost 3 full quarters for that to happen and Boston overall was better when Horford was guarding Embiid.

Team scoring and individual defense arenít the same thing, and Baynes did great regardless of how Horford did. Embiid 23 points on 21 shots between Baynes and Horford, thatís fantastic.

Itís amazing how esoteric your supporting metrics get as you dig yourself deeper.
But that has in fact been my argument, that Boston is better when Baynes isn't on the floor against Embiid, in a large part because of the lack of Baynes quickness and footspeed making it difficult for him to contain Embiid without double teams.

Please just quit while you're ahead.

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2018, 11:45:02 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2018, 12:39:47 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

I'm consistently amazed at how well Horford defends Embiid. Giving up that much size, quickness, and athleticism Horford still owns Embiid. There's a low rumble of a Horford-for-DPOY narrative starting.

As for Baynes, I don't know how you could watch the game last night and come away critical of Baynes' defense on Embiid or anyone else.
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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2018, 09:23:24 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Does Moranis still think Baynes can't guard Embiid because he did well on him last night?

I was wondering about this. Baynes was great against him on both ends of the floor last night
21-14 C's when Baynes enters the game with 2:53 left in the 1st quarter, Sixers scored the next 7 points to end the quarter tied.  At 6:37 of the 2nd, Horford comes back in the C's are up 4, so the C's lost 3 points in 8 and a half minutes of Baynes in the first half.  C's ended the half up 5.  Baynes and Horford started the 2nd half together, when Baynes was pulled at 6:41, the C's were up 7 so they had extended the lead by 2.  Baynes came back in for the last 1:13 of the 3rd quarter and Boston went on a nice little run extending their lead by 5, which continued into the 4th quarter. 

So yeah, Boston played well overall late in the game with Baynes out there, but it took almost 3 full quarters for that to happen and Boston overall was better when Horford was guarding Embiid.

Team scoring and individual defense arenít the same thing, and Baynes did great regardless of how Horford did. Embiid 23 points on 21 shots between Baynes and Horford, thatís fantastic.

Itís amazing how esoteric your supporting metrics get as you dig yourself deeper.
But that has in fact been my argument, that Boston is better when Baynes isn't on the floor against Embiid, in a large part because of the lack of Baynes quickness and footspeed making it difficult for him to contain Embiid without double teams.

Please just quit while you're ahead.
When was that?

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2018, 10:56:07 PM »

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line). 

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2018, 06:59:00 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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There's videos from an article in LB about how Horford/Baynes defended Embiid, along with some explanation. Pretty cool stuff

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/18/17990654/observations-from-76ers-loss-to-celtics

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2018, 07:28:52 AM »

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line).

Actually Boston did better vs Philly in the 3rd quarter when Baynes started. Hayward starting only proves that Stevens knows he needs to get Hayward going and get him reps. Also,  your original argument in that thread was that Baynes can’t guard Embiid, which you’ve modified to ‘can’t guard Embiid as well as Horford’ as it has become clear that Baynes does well with Embiid.
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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2018, 09:16:06 AM »

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line).

Actually Boston did better vs Philly in the 3rd quarter when Baynes started. Hayward starting only proves that Stevens knows he needs to get Hayward going and get him reps. Also,  your original argument in that thread was that Baynes canít guard Embiid, which youíve modified to Ďcanít guard Embiid as well as Horfordí as it has become clear that Baynes does well with Embiid.
Better is subjective.  In the 5 minutes 20 seconds or so Baynes was on the floor at the start of the 3rd quarter, the Celtics gained 2 points on the Sixers.  However at the start of the game, Baynes was on the bench for the first 9 minutes or so and in that time the Celtics gained 7 points on the Sixers.  So sure, they were 2 points better than the Sixers with Baynes starting the 2nd half, but they were actually worse then they were at the start of the game when Baynes was on the bench.  So were they better?

I maintain my position that Baynes can't effectively guard Embiid over the long haul.  He doesn't have the speed, quickness, etc. to do so for any period of time.  And given the PF is Saric, there is no need for 2 bigs to be on the floor, so like opening night, and barring injury the small starting 5 will be out there against the Sixers

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2018, 10:35:41 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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The only portion of the game with Baynes on the floor that was negative for the Celtics was when he very first entered the game with 2:53 left in the 1st.  That was a -7 stretch.   The remaining 16:21 were all positive and a net +15.

The initial insert of Baynes into the game was almost a 'hockey' style line change, as Brad substituted wholesale in very short order, bringing in first Rozier & Morris and then Smart and Baynes.  So for that final 3 minutes of the 1st period our lineup was Rozier+Smart+Tatum+Morris+Baynes.

The Sixers countered with starters (and their three best players) Simmons, Saric, Embiid still on the floor plus Redick & McConnell.

That short little stretch featured multiple missed shots by all 5 of those Celtics (not surprising since these were the first cold minutes of play for 4 of them), a turnover by Morris and consecutive fouls by Tatum & then Smart that put Simmons on the line free throws and then a turnover by Smart that lead to a Saric layup.

Baynes did miss two shots of his own during that stretch, but it's hard to see his play as anything close to being the problem for why that stretch was negative.

To start the 2nd period, Hayward came back in for Morris, giving a lineup of Rozier+Smart+Hayward+Tatum+Baynes that went on a +4 run through the first half of the 2nd period, at which point Baynes sat down.   The Celtics pretty much never looked back from that point.
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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2018, 12:36:37 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line).

Actually Boston did better vs Philly in the 3rd quarter when Baynes started. Hayward starting only proves that Stevens knows he needs to get Hayward going and get him reps. Also,  your original argument in that thread was that Baynes canít guard Embiid, which youíve modified to Ďcanít guard Embiid as well as Horfordí as it has become clear that Baynes does well with Embiid.
Better is subjective.  In the 5 minutes 20 seconds or so Baynes was on the floor at the start of the 3rd quarter, the Celtics gained 2 points on the Sixers.  However at the start of the game, Baynes was on the bench for the first 9 minutes or so and in that time the Celtics gained 7 points on the Sixers.  So sure, they were 2 points better than the Sixers with Baynes starting the 2nd half, but they were actually worse then they were at the start of the game when Baynes was on the bench.  So were they better?

I maintain my position that Baynes can't effectively guard Embiid over the long haul.  He doesn't have the speed, quickness, etc. to do so for any period of time.  And given the PF is Saric, there is no need for 2 bigs to be on the floor, so like opening night, and barring injury the small starting 5 will be out there against the Sixers

I don't recall Embiid beating Baynes with his speed even one time last night. Baynes doesn't have the length to bother some of Embiid's shots but as far as I can remember he's always been able to stay in front of Embiid without any trouble.
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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2018, 01:15:59 PM »

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line).

Actually Boston did better vs Philly in the 3rd quarter when Baynes started. Hayward starting only proves that Stevens knows he needs to get Hayward going and get him reps. Also,  your original argument in that thread was that Baynes canít guard Embiid, which youíve modified to Ďcanít guard Embiid as well as Horfordí as it has become clear that Baynes does well with Embiid.
Better is subjective.  In the 5 minutes 20 seconds or so Baynes was on the floor at the start of the 3rd quarter, the Celtics gained 2 points on the Sixers.  However at the start of the game, Baynes was on the bench for the first 9 minutes or so and in that time the Celtics gained 7 points on the Sixers.  So sure, they were 2 points better than the Sixers with Baynes starting the 2nd half, but they were actually worse then they were at the start of the game when Baynes was on the bench.  So were they better?

I maintain my position that Baynes can't effectively guard Embiid over the long haul.  He doesn't have the speed, quickness, etc. to do so for any period of time.  And given the PF is Saric, there is no need for 2 bigs to be on the floor, so like opening night, and barring injury the small starting 5 will be out there against the Sixers

I don't recall Embiid beating Baynes with his speed even one time last night. Baynes doesn't have the length to bother some of Embiid's shots but as far as I can remember he's always been able to stay in front of Embiid without any trouble.
what I mean is, Embiid can get the ball in single coverage and get off any shot he wants against Baynes unless there is a double team.  He dribbles to any spot on the floor, he backs him down, and yes just shoots right over him.  Embiid isn't blowing by him on the dribble or anything (I don't think I ever implied that, but if I did it wasn't my intent), but he can get to the spots he wants and can shoot basically unhindered by Baynes.

Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2018, 04:07:53 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line).

Actually Boston did better vs Philly in the 3rd quarter when Baynes started. Hayward starting only proves that Stevens knows he needs to get Hayward going and get him reps. Also,  your original argument in that thread was that Baynes canít guard Embiid, which youíve modified to Ďcanít guard Embiid as well as Horfordí as it has become clear that Baynes does well with Embiid.
Better is subjective.  In the 5 minutes 20 seconds or so Baynes was on the floor at the start of the 3rd quarter, the Celtics gained 2 points on the Sixers.  However at the start of the game, Baynes was on the bench for the first 9 minutes or so and in that time the Celtics gained 7 points on the Sixers.  So sure, they were 2 points better than the Sixers with Baynes starting the 2nd half, but they were actually worse then they were at the start of the game when Baynes was on the bench.  So were they better?

I maintain my position that Baynes can't effectively guard Embiid over the long haul.  He doesn't have the speed, quickness, etc. to do so for any period of time.  And given the PF is Saric, there is no need for 2 bigs to be on the floor, so like opening night, and barring injury the small starting 5 will be out there against the Sixers

I don't recall Embiid beating Baynes with his speed even one time last night. Baynes doesn't have the length to bother some of Embiid's shots but as far as I can remember he's always been able to stay in front of Embiid without any trouble.
what I mean is, Embiid can get the ball in single coverage and get off any shot he wants against Baynes unless there is a double team.  He dribbles to any spot on the floor, he backs him down, and yes just shoots right over him.  Embiid isn't blowing by him on the dribble or anything (I don't think I ever implied that, but if I did it wasn't my intent), but he can get to the spots he wants and can shoot basically unhindered by Baynes.

First you said Baynes isn't fast enough to guard Embiid. Now you're saying Embiid just shoots over Baynes.

Neither is true. Like I said before, Baynes is giving up some height so there are going to be times Embiid goes over the top but the idea that he does so "unhindered by Baynes" is simply not what happens. There's a ton of video on this. Baynes is explicitly cited by outside NBA writers as playing Embiid very well. The only evidence you've given is an on/off statistic that doesn't actually address the thing you're claiming.
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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2018, 04:33:01 PM »

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Nobody really shuts down Embiid -- he is too talented. But Baynes and Horford do as well as most anyone against him.

Davis probably does better. Howard and Drummond may do well on him, but both of them are prone to biting on pumpfakes. I like Durant and Green on him for different reasons.

The greatest advantage over Embiid is defensive IQ. Nobody beats his length, strength, or quickness. Horford and Baynes make Embiid more uncomfortable than a lot of players can.
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Re: The Hayward/Baynes Shuffle
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2018, 06:18:36 PM »

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Baynes can be a good defender on Embiid and also not nearly as good as Horford, who probably defends him as well as anyone in the league. Both can be true.

Correct, and that speaks to how good Horford. However, Moranis point isn't to credit Horford is, but instead to discredit Baynes. Just take a look at his comment where he thinks that Baynes needs help from teammates because he can't handle Embiid's quickness. That's devoid of reality and it speaks as to a person that either doesn't watch the game or doesn't want to acknowledge what he's observing. What makes Baynes so unique is that he has very good lateral mobility for a player his size. Moranis makes it sound as though he's Monroe.

I would love to see it this video evidence where Embiid's is facing up and blowing past Baynes regularly.
Actually that has been my point.  I have made it several times.  Boston is better when Horford is on Embiid because Horford is quicker and better able to stay with Embiid when he floats around the 3 point line and is strong enough to make him work in the paint (and the Sixers other big is Saric who can be guarded by Tatum easily enough).  If you go back and read the Baynes starting thread, you will find me making that point several times. 

The simple reality is, despite being a shell of himself physically, Stevens started Hayward along with Brown and Tatum and brought Baynes off the bench.  That seems to prove the point I'd been arguing in that thread, that Boston is better off not starting Baynes against the Sixers.  Against certain teams, I absolutely could see Baynes starting (like I wouldn't really want Tatum to be forced to guard Blake Griffin or Kevin Love at the start of a game as that is a recipe for foul trouble for him and those teams have interior oriented centers that won't stretch Baynes out to the 3 point line).

Actually Boston did better vs Philly in the 3rd quarter when Baynes started. Hayward starting only proves that Stevens knows he needs to get Hayward going and get him reps. Also,  your original argument in that thread was that Baynes canít guard Embiid, which youíve modified to Ďcanít guard Embiid as well as Horfordí as it has become clear that Baynes does well with Embiid.
Better is subjective.  In the 5 minutes 20 seconds or so Baynes was on the floor at the start of the 3rd quarter, the Celtics gained 2 points on the Sixers.  However at the start of the game, Baynes was on the bench for the first 9 minutes or so and in that time the Celtics gained 7 points on the Sixers.  So sure, they were 2 points better than the Sixers with Baynes starting the 2nd half, but they were actually worse then they were at the start of the game when Baynes was on the bench.  So were they better?

I maintain my position that Baynes can't effectively guard Embiid over the long haul.  He doesn't have the speed, quickness, etc. to do so for any period of time.  And given the PF is Saric, there is no need for 2 bigs to be on the floor, so like opening night, and barring injury the small starting 5 will be out there against the Sixers

I don't recall Embiid beating Baynes with his speed even one time last night. Baynes doesn't have the length to bother some of Embiid's shots but as far as I can remember he's always been able to stay in front of Embiid without any trouble.
what I mean is, Embiid can get the ball in single coverage and get off any shot he wants against Baynes unless there is a double team.  He dribbles to any spot on the floor, he backs him down, and yes just shoots right over him.  Embiid isn't blowing by him on the dribble or anything (I don't think I ever implied that, but if I did it wasn't my intent), but he can get to the spots he wants and can shoot basically unhindered by Baynes.

First you said Baynes isn't fast enough to guard Embiid. Now you're saying Embiid just shoots over Baynes.

Neither is true. Like I said before, Baynes is giving up some height so there are going to be times Embiid goes over the top but the idea that he does so "unhindered by Baynes" is simply not what happens. There's a ton of video on this. Baynes is explicitly cited by outside NBA writers as playing Embiid very well. The only evidence you've given is an on/off statistic that doesn't actually address the thing you're claiming.
You act like I'm being inconsistent, I'm not.  He doesn't have the foot speed, timing speed, or the lateral quickness to stay with Embiid or give him any real shooting difficulty.  Embiid can also just shoot right over him.  Even in the highlight video from the playoffs last year (it was posted in the other thread), you see Embiid get the ball at about 10 feet, dribble Baynes down, make a quick move to the side and get a shot off unhindered by Baynes.  That happens a number of times in that video.  It was a C's highlight so they showed Embiid's misses.  In other clips, you see Tatum drop into a double team and force a turnover, and you see Baynes commit a hard foul that clearly aggravated Embiid (but it was still a foul). 

Horford on the other hand can stay with Embiid much better, both off the dribble and when Embiid goes up for shots (Horford is a much faster reactor on shots).  Embiid is very good so he still gets his against Horford, but Horford makes him work a lot more and the C's as a team generally don't have to double team as much, which also helps the team defense overall.

Baynes is a nice solid role player, but he is very limited against someone like Embiid, and because the Sixers don't have a PF that can cause real problems for Tatum, there is no reason for Baynes to start or play all that much against the Sixers (if Hayward wasn't coming back from injury with minutes issues, he would have started the 2nd half).  A team like Detroit or Cleveland, where they have a solely interior center and a much bigger, stronger, etc. power forward, then starting and playing Baynes more makes a lot more sense. 

 

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