Kyrie is Staying if he wants a 5 year Deal LoL

[nickagneta]

So the thread started I think by asking if we are better off signing Rozier for 4 years $70M or Kyrie for 5 years and $200M.  That is a tough one.  Kyrie is a true star and will probably get his money from the Celtics.  Rozier is great and may be a better value, but there are guys coming out of college every year that can do what Rozier can do (or at least what he has done so far).

Then this morphed into a question about who was worth more, Smart or Rozier.  So far, Smart has been a better player.  This may change in the future but if Rozier does top Smart, it will be amazing how quickly that Smart's contract went from oooou, that is too much to, wow, what a bargin.

I don't think I will ever think Smart's contract is a bargain.  I think he was overpaid by $16 million on that contract.

[jambr380]

So the thread started I think by asking if we are better off signing Rozier for 4 years $70M or Kyrie for 5 years and $200M.  That is a tough one.  Kyrie is a true star and will probably get his money from the Celtics.  Rozier is great and may be a better value, but there are guys coming out of college every year that can do what Rozier can do (or at least what he has done so far).

Then this morphed into a question about who was worth more, Smart or Rozier.  So far, Smart has been a better player.  This may change in the future but if Rozier does top Smart, it will be amazing how quickly that Smart's contract went from oooou, that is too much to, wow, what a bargin.

I don't think it is a given that we don't re-sign Rozier. A lot of teams will have cap space next year and if Ainge deems that Rozier is more 'valuable' than Smart moving forward, then I could definitely see Smart shipped out for 'assets' rather than settling on Smart and letting Rozier walk for free.

As for Kyrie, if he wants to be here, he will be signed for the 5 year max. While I generally agree with the OP about value, the NBA is a superstar driven league. Also, Kyrie is a so incredibly popular that he will bring in a lot more money to the franchise than Smart and Rozier combined.

I believe there will be a decision between Smart and Rozier. and Ainge now has another year to figure it out.

[Moranis]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

[18isGREATERthan72]

Where is this supposed tweet?

probably referring to this

https://twitter.com/T_Rozzay3/status/1005166252606803968

The thread starter has a gross misrepresentation of Terry's tweet...

[Androslav]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

No 4 or 5-year max deal is without concerns.
It is a big long-term investment.
Eating your cap space.
Pushing you to luxury tax.

Wall's contract looks horrible. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Harden's deal looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Blake's deal looks horrible.
Westbrook's contract looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
New Butler deal will look scary.

But out of this group, Kyrie is the only one with championship pedigree.
He is also the best shooter.
He also has the best handle (Harden would object)
He is also the least dependent on his athleticism.
And he is also the youngest.

If you want to compete in the finals for the long term you always have to roll the dice.

What if Curry becomes slow and gingery after another ankle injury?
Then he does. In the meantime, you sign him to a 5-year deal and you try to win the 3rd consecutive championship.

[Monkhouse]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

No 4 or 5-year max deal is without concerns.
It is a big long-term investment.
Eating your cap space.
Pushing you to luxury tax.

Wall's contract looks horrible. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Harden's deal looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Blake's deal looks horrible.
Westbrook's contract looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
New Butler deal will look scary.

But out of this group, Kyrie is the only one with championship pedigree.
He is also the best shooter.
He also has the best handle (Harden would object)
He is also the least dependent on his athleticism.
And he is also the youngest.

If you want to compete in the finals for the long term you always have to roll the dice.

What if Curry becomes slow and gingery after another ankle injury?
Then he does. In the meantime, you sign him to a 5-year deal and you try to win the 3rd consecutive championship.

TP, 100% agree.

Sure, Irving has defensive concerns/durability issues, but he's the only one with a ring, best handles, could potentially have 40%+ 3PA in our offense, and is the youngest, which is key here.

[Moranis]

Yeah, Boston will offer Irving a 5 year max.  I have concerns Boston will regret the contract long term, but it will be offered.  I have no idea if Irving will take the money.  He might, he might not, but it will be offered.

No 4 or 5-year max deal is without concerns.
It is a big long-term investment.
Eating your cap space.
Pushing you to luxury tax.

Wall's contract looks horrible. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Harden's deal looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
Blake's deal looks horrible.
Westbrook's contract looks scary. The extension hasn't kicked in yet.
New Butler deal will look scary.

But out of this group, Kyrie is the only one with championship pedigree.
He is also the best shooter.
He also has the best handle (Harden would object)
He is also the least dependent on his athleticism.
And he is also the youngest.

If you want to compete in the finals for the long term you always have to roll the dice.

What if Curry becomes slow and gingery after another ankle injury?
Then he does. In the meantime, you sign him to a 5-year deal and you try to win the 3rd consecutive championship.

Irving has had multiple surgeries on his knee.  He has a history of missing significant portions of seasons as a result of injuries.  I also disagree about his athleticism.  That is what allows him to use his ball handling skills to get open.  once he loses a step, he won't be nearly as good as he is a poor passer and is not a good catch and shoot shooter (he uses his athleticism and handle to get open).  I can't see him transitioning all that well into a Jason Kidd type role.  Harden, Westbrook, and Wall are all much better passers than Irving is.  They will be able to find roles as playmakers if they lose their athleticism because they have better all around skills.  Curry could be in a wheelchair and still be able to hit 3 pointers.  He is just that good of a shooter. 

Now Irving is a great deal younger then those players, but those guys also aren't coming off an injury or multiple surgeries either.  They also, by and large, have been healthy and play the vast majority of their teams games every single season (Curry is obviously more injury prone then the others, but he did finish last year by playing and played in at least 78 regular season games in each of the prior 5 seasons before last year). 

I'd honestly be surprised if Irving was healthy for 70 games this season (in his 7 seasons he has only played in at least 70 games 3 times with his best at 75 - his other 4 seasons are 60, 59, 53, and 51).  This notion that a guy who has never been able to stay healthy is all of a sudden going to be healthy 8 years into his career after multiple knee surgeries seems very strange to me.  Irving is a walking injury and any team should be very concerned writing him an 188 million dollar check.  Boston will because they have to, but I absolutely think that is a contract that very very easily could haunt the Celtics.

[moiso]

I think Irving’s game will age a lot better than the games of Westbrook and Wall.  He’s just so skilled.  I agree with Androslav that he’s not dependent on traditional speed, strength, and jumping  ability like Wall and Westbrook are.  He uses that Steve Nash athleticism that should age well.  His athleticism is based on intelligence, insane hand/eye coordination and balance to use change of pace and trickery to get by guys.  He isn’t a good passer but he should be able to score and shoot for a very long time.

That said, Moranis is right when he says how fragile Irving is.  I really never expect him to play 70 games in ANY season.  And there is always a good chance that he will miss the playoffs like he did last season.

[Moranis]

I think Irving’s game will age a lot better than the games of Westbrook and Wall.  He’s just so skilled.  I agree with Androslav that he’s not dependent on traditional speed, strength, and jumping  ability like Wall and Westbrook are.  He uses that Steve Nash athleticism that should age well.  His athleticism is based on intelligence, insane hand/eye coordination and balance to use change of pace and trickery to get by guys.  He isn’t a good passer but he should be able to score and shoot for a very long time.

That said, Moranis is right when he says how fragile Irving is.  I really never expect him to play 70 games in ANY season.  And there is always a good chance that he will miss the playoffs like he did last season.

The other side of that is, I'm not really sure how much Irving actually contributes to wins.  In the regular season, Boston was on a 4 win less pace without Irving then with him, and that includes the 15-2 unsustainable start to the season (Irving missed 1 of the wins).  If you take out that crazy 16-2 hot start (and I know you can't do that), Boston was actually better without Irving.  The Celtics made it to within 1 game of the NBA Finals without Irving playing a single minute in the playoffs.  The Cavs, without Irving, and all that turmoil and IT injury, won 1 less game and made it back to the NBA Finals. 

I have real concerns, Irving is an empty stats type of player.  He doesn't defend at all.  He doesn't pass well or rebound well for his position.  He doesn't get to the line much at all, especially for someone with the ball in his hand as much as he has it.  He isn't a great half court player, unless it is an ISO for him.  He is about as good handling the ball as anyone in history and is a very good shooter, but he really isn't a well rounded player at all. 

[KGs Knee]

Kyrie is a top 15 player in the NBA, was the 2nd best player in the clutch last season (behind only LeBron), has already won a title, and is just now entering his prime.

Kyrie will be worth every penny paid to him next summer. Arguing otherwise is just silly, and shows a lack of common sense.

[smokeablount]

I don't see that tweet being about his contract at all.

Kyrie gets a five year max from us. Not even a question or an after thought.

This.

I mean, cmon.  Gotta pay The Big Pythagoras.  Have to.

Why are ppl calling Irving this? Is it a flat earth thing?

Lol - gotta be, right?

Yes.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

Big Pythagoras sounds like one of Shaq's nicknames that didn't make his top 100 nicknames cut. It doesn't really fit Kyrie. Kyrie is not big and also...

The Pythagorean school was associated with the Spherical Earth theory some 2500 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

"Pythagoras
Early Greek philosophers alluded to a spherical Earth, though with some ambiguity.[39] Pythagoras (6th century BC) was among those said to have originated the idea, but this might reflect the ancient Greek practice of ascribing every discovery to one or another of their ancient wise men.[36] Some idea of the sphericity of the Earth seems to have been known to both Parmenides and Empedocles in the 5th century BC,[40] and although the idea cannot reliably be ascribed to Pythagoras,[41] it might nevertheless have been formulated in the Pythagorean school in the 5th century BC[36][40] although some disagree.[42] After the 5th century BC, no Greek writer of repute thought the world was anything but round.[39]"

So no real flat Earth connection there too.

If I had to nickname Kyrie, I'd go with the "Matchstick man"
The way he tricks guys with his quick hands is cheating by itself.

I thought the flat-earth link to Pythagoras was ironic, but I admit that's obscure on top of obscure.

lol as far as I know, I made that nickname up, though I didn't check to see if it was being used.  Androslav, how dare you belittle my creation?!

Though I admit, maybe it should be revised to The Little Pythagoras. 

[Smartacus]

We paid as much as I would possibly have paid for Marcus Smart. No regrets at all of course but I'm not in any way going to say that he was a bargain.

He does provide just about the perfect contract to trade though in the event that we were to make a move for another Max player.

[JBcat]

There is a good chance Irving will be the best point guard in the league in 2 or 3 years when he is around 28, and the likes of Wall, Curry, Westbrook, Lilliard, are in their early 30s at the end of their prime.

So pay the man.

[Vermont Green]

So the thread started I think by asking if we are better off signing Rozier for 4 years $70M or Kyrie for 5 years and $200M.  That is a tough one.  Kyrie is a true star and will probably get his money from the Celtics.  Rozier is great and may be a better value, but there are guys coming out of college every year that can do what Rozier can do (or at least what he has done so far).

Then this morphed into a question about who was worth more, Smart or Rozier.  So far, Smart has been a better player.  This may change in the future but if Rozier does top Smart, it will be amazing how quickly that Smart's contract went from oooou, that is too much to, wow, what a bargin.

I don't think it is a given that we don't re-sign Rozier. A lot of teams will have cap space next year and if Ainge deems that Rozier is more 'valuable' than Smart moving forward, then I could definitely see Smart shipped out for 'assets' rather than settling on Smart and letting Rozier walk for free.

As for Kyrie, if he wants to be here, he will be signed for the 5 year max. While I generally agree with the OP about value, the NBA is a superstar driven league. Also, Kyrie is a so incredibly popular that he will bring in a lot more money to the franchise than Smart and Rozier combined.

I believe there will be a decision between Smart and Rozier. and Ainge now has another year to figure it out.

Yes, good point, Smart is a trade-able asset now that he is under contract but we would still need to take salary back in most cases so that doesn't necessarily get us away from luxury tax.  Irving could be traded too.  Not out of the question.  Hopefully, he doesn't just walk

[Moranis]

So the thread started I think by asking if we are better off signing Rozier for 4 years $70M or Kyrie for 5 years and $200M.  That is a tough one.  Kyrie is a true star and will probably get his money from the Celtics.  Rozier is great and may be a better value, but there are guys coming out of college every year that can do what Rozier can do (or at least what he has done so far).

Then this morphed into a question about who was worth more, Smart or Rozier.  So far, Smart has been a better player.  This may change in the future but if Rozier does top Smart, it will be amazing how quickly that Smart's contract went from oooou, that is too much to, wow, what a bargin.

I don't think it is a given that we don't re-sign Rozier. A lot of teams will have cap space next year and if Ainge deems that Rozier is more 'valuable' than Smart moving forward, then I could definitely see Smart shipped out for 'assets' rather than settling on Smart and letting Rozier walk for free.

As for Kyrie, if he wants to be here, he will be signed for the 5 year max. While I generally agree with the OP about value, the NBA is a superstar driven league. Also, Kyrie is a so incredibly popular that he will bring in a lot more money to the franchise than Smart and Rozier combined.

I believe there will be a decision between Smart and Rozier. and Ainge now has another year to figure it out.

Yes, good point, Smart is a trade-able asset now that he is under contract but we would still need to take salary back in most cases so that doesn't necessarily get us away from luxury tax.  Irving could be traded too.  Not out of the question.  Hopefully, he doesn't just walk

Boston is in the luxury tax no matter what next summer if it brings Irving back, unless it does a firesale of other players (like say Horford).