Poll

Who was better, Paul Pierce or Scottie Pippen?

Pierce
21 (51.2%)
Pippen
20 (48.8%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Author Topic: Pierce or Pippen  (Read 4177 times)

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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2018, 10:17:57 AM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Pierce was probably a top 10 player of his era. Can we say the same about Pippen? I don't think I can.

All-NBA voters disagreed.


Allen Iverson had 7 ALL-NBA selections. I'd love for you to mathematically prove to me Iverson was a better offensive player than Pierce.

Iverson did more with less.


That's very subjective. In 10 seasons with Philadelphia, Iverson could only manage 5 seasons with records above .500%. Statistics show he was horribly inefficient and not a winner.

Who do you think the 2nd best player was on AIís team that made the finals? Pick a guy, then make a case for that guy being better than Antoine that includes comparing all star appearances, keeping in mind Pierce never made a finals without 2-3 HOFers.


Dikembe Mutombo who is a HOF and one of the greatest defensive players of all time.
.... and was also 35, and not at all the player he was at Denver nor Atlanta


Still a much more impactful player than Walker, who was simply not a valuable player.

Dikembe put up 11-11-1 that year with over 2 blocks, solid, but that very same year Antoine put up 22-9-5 with 1.5 steals and made the all star team, and that's just a random Antoine season.  He was definitely better than Dikembe at age 35, and it's not close. 

Then you consider peak Antoine and young prime Paul got obliterated by JKidd and the Nets, and that Iverson obliterated those Nets by himself to get to the finals... That's why Iverson gets props, and gets to claim he did less with more.  Piece got less far than Iverson, with better teammates.



I donít care how many points Walker put up. He was a horribly inefficient player, which led to his rather quick NBA demise. Mutombo was better.

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2018, 10:22:01 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I donít understand how people are picking Pippen in a ďlandslide.Ē Basketball is a two-way sport. Yes, Pippen was a better defensive player. But Pierce was clearly the better offensive player. The numbers prove this. Therefore, how is Pippen clearly the better player if he is only better on one side of the ball?

Because Pippen was almost as good as Pierce on offense (only slightly behind in scoring despite being a second option, while being a much better passer), he was a better rebounder (despite playing next to Rodman), and the defense wasnít remotely close.


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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2018, 10:26:58 AM »

Online Donoghus

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Pippen.

Not much of a debate in my book, either.  If any.


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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2018, 10:40:40 AM »

Offline CelticSince83

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Equal votes... This is why fans of other teams donít take us seriously. I love Pierce, but itís Pippen by a landslide.




Pierce made it to the NBA finals twice, once being the best player on the team and the next being arguably the best player on the team. He also made it to the eastern conference finals as the best player on the team. Do people think if Pippen played for some other team in the league and wasn't drafted into the perfect situation he would have had success as any type of winner at all? Purely hypothetical, but I'm just curious as to what people think. Pierce was a bonafide go-to scorer with good efficiency as well as being a good all-around-player. Pippen was a great defensive player, with a good all-around game, and was a solid offensive player/scorer. How many great defensive players who are solid offensively have every carried a team to the finals being the supposed "best player" on a team. Pierce achieved these marks being the best guy on the team.
Pierce was not better than Garnett.  It isn't even close really and Garnett absolutely should have been the Finals MVP as he drove that entire team and played with consistency that Pierce lacked (even in that final series against the Lakers).  In fact, I think you could make a reasonable argument that in the Lakers series, Allen was better than Pierce (though Pierce was the better player).  Pierce was basically given a lifetime achievement award with that Finals MVP and it shouldn't have been his.  Let's remember, KG gets hurt the next year and Boston loses in the 2nd round, and then the C's miraculously are back in the Finals with KG in 2010 (hmm I wonder why that is).  The simple reality is Pierce was a very good player for a very long time, but he is not even in the same league as a player as Scottie Pippen.  The fact that the voting is tied is actually quite embarrassing.

EDIT: This thread has a lot of similar themes as the one from a couple of weeks ago talking about Pierce hate.  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=96673.0

TP to all of this in its entirety. 

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2018, 01:20:14 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Pierce was probably a top 10 player of his era. Can we say the same about Pippen? I don't think I can.

All-NBA voters disagreed.


Allen Iverson had 7 ALL-NBA selections. I'd love for you to mathematically prove to me Iverson was a better offensive player than Pierce.

Iverson did more with less.


That's very subjective. In 10 seasons with Philadelphia, Iverson could only manage 5 seasons with records above .500%. Statistics show he was horribly inefficient and not a winner.

Who do you think the 2nd best player was on AIís team that made the finals? Pick a guy, then make a case for that guy being better than Antoine that includes comparing all star appearances, keeping in mind Pierce never made a finals without 2-3 HOFers.


Dikembe Mutombo who is a HOF and one of the greatest defensive players of all time.
.... and was also 35, and not at all the player he was at Denver nor Atlanta


Still a much more impactful player than Walker, who was simply not a valuable player.

Dikembe put up 11-11-1 that year with over 2 blocks, solid, but that very same year Antoine put up 22-9-5 with 1.5 steals and made the all star team, and that's just a random Antoine season.  He was definitely better than Dikembe at age 35, and it's not close. 

Then you consider peak Antoine and young prime Paul got obliterated by JKidd and the Nets, and that Iverson obliterated those Nets by himself to get to the finals... That's why Iverson gets props, and gets to claim he did less with more.  Piece got less far than Iverson, with better teammates.



I donít care how many points Walker put up. He was a horribly inefficient player, which led to his rather quick NBA demise. Mutombo was better.

Well, when we basically just took Walker off those teams, teams Walker helped made the playoffs and peak in the ECF once, and they then were led by only Pierce with weak supporting talent (like Iverson had), the Celtics became one of the worst teams in the league, finishing 2nd worst in 2006-7.

With a similarly bad surrounding roster (Snow-AI-McKie-Ratliff-Deke, they were bad, I watched them a lot, 2 of them couldnít play in the NBA today), Iverson made the finals and finished 2nd best.

Iverson making the finals with that roster is the loserís version of Dirk beating the Heat with no all star teammate. Itís a truly incredible achievement, and Iverson was amazing, and an offensive system all by himself like a Dirk or Curry or Lebron (but less efficient, as itís hard to do that at 5í11Ē).

Pierce is great, probably a top 30 player for at least the next 5 years, as is AI, but he needed 2 HOFers (a top 20 all timer and the 2nd best shooter ever) to get as far as AI did with scraps.
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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2018, 01:25:06 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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I donít understand how people are picking Pippen in a ďlandslide.Ē Basketball is a two-way sport. Yes, Pippen was a better defensive player. But Pierce was clearly the better offensive player. The numbers prove this. Therefore, how is Pippen clearly the better player if he is only better on one side of the ball?

ďLandslideĒ is debatable and you wonít get it if youíre focusing heavily on offense, or stats in general, or if you watched a lot more full games of PP than Pippen. Iím in my mid 30s, I saw both a lot.

You watch the full games and how amazing he looks, rely on advanced metrics especially team oriented ones, consider Pip got less shots and was featured less, what he did when MJ was gone, and compare PP and Pip in 1st and 2nd teams (5 to 1) and thatís why some say landslide.

You can argue Pippen benefitted from Jordan (correct), to downplay some of Pippens achievements, but if we go down that road, makes it hard to pump up Russell (best coach and teammates in history) or Pierce (only won a title with 2 other HOFers and a future multi all star).
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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2018, 05:49:33 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I donít understand how people are picking Pippen in a ďlandslide.Ē Basketball is a two-way sport. Yes, Pippen was a better defensive player. But Pierce was clearly the better offensive player. The numbers prove this. Therefore, how is Pippen clearly the better player if he is only better on one side of the ball?

ďLandslideĒ is debatable and you wonít get it if youíre focusing heavily on offense, or stats in general, or if you watched a lot more full games of PP than Pippen. Iím in my mid 30s, I saw both a lot.

You watch the full games and how amazing he looks, rely on advanced metrics especially team oriented ones, consider Pip got less shots and was featured less, what he did when MJ was gone, and compare PP and Pip in 1st and 2nd teams (5 to 1) and thatís why some say landslide.

You can argue Pippen benefitted from Jordan (correct), to downplay some of Pippens achievements, but if we go down that road, makes it hard to pump up Russell (best coach and teammates in history) or Pierce (only won a title with 2 other HOFers and a future multi all star).

I've seen this a lot this thread. Obviously playing alongside Jordan means Jordan gets the most touches but we have a really good indication of what Pippen would look like without Jordan, since he played essentially two full seasons (72 games and then 63 games) without him in his prime. He averaged basically the same thing both seasons, 22-8-5 playing All NBA defense.

So while Jordan has to be taken into account, there is evidence that suggests Pippen would not have been scoring a lot more if he'd been with a different teammate.
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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2018, 06:18:47 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I donít understand how people are picking Pippen in a ďlandslide.Ē Basketball is a two-way sport. Yes, Pippen was a better defensive player. But Pierce was clearly the better offensive player. The numbers prove this. Therefore, how is Pippen clearly the better player if he is only better on one side of the ball?

Because Pippen was almost as good as Pierce on offense (only slightly behind in scoring despite being a second option, while being a much better passer), he was a better rebounder (despite playing next to Rodman), and the defense wasnít remotely close.

I completely disagree. Pippen was the better athlete, yes, but never had Pierce's footwork, never mind jump shot from any distance, not to mention the fact that Scottie was always a sub-par free throw shooter, at best. The only common thread between the two, offensively, imo, is that neither of them ever really developed a post game >:(.

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2018, 06:22:51 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Equal votes... This is why fans of other teams donít take us seriously. I love Pierce, but itís Pippen by a landslide.




Pierce made it to the NBA finals twice, once being the best player on the team and the next being arguably the best player on the team. He also made it to the eastern conference finals as the best player on the team. Do people think if Pippen played for some other team in the league and wasn't drafted into the perfect situation he would have had success as any type of winner at all? Purely hypothetical, but I'm just curious as to what people think. Pierce was a bonafide go-to scorer with good efficiency as well as being a good all-around-player. Pippen was a great defensive player, with a good all-around game, and was a solid offensive player/scorer. How many great defensive players who are solid offensively have every carried a team to the finals being the supposed "best player" on a team. Pierce achieved these marks being the best guy on the team.
Pierce was not better than Garnett.  It isn't even close really and Garnett absolutely should have been the Finals MVP as he drove that entire team and played with consistency that Pierce lacked (even in that final series against the Lakers).  In fact, I think you could make a reasonable argument that in the Lakers series, Allen was better than Pierce (though Pierce was the better player).  Pierce was basically given a lifetime achievement award with that Finals MVP and it shouldn't have been his.  Let's remember, KG gets hurt the next year and Boston loses in the 2nd round, and then the C's miraculously are back in the Finals with KG in 2010 (hmm I wonder why that is).  The simple reality is Pierce was a very good player for a very long time, but he is not even in the same league as a player as Scottie Pippen.  The fact that the voting is tied is actually quite embarrassing.

EDIT: This thread has a lot of similar themes as the one from a couple of weeks ago talking about Pierce hate.  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=96673.0

Forget about the MVP of The NBA Finals - KG should have been the MVP of the league in 2007-08. Giving it to Kobe was an absolute joke and slap in the face, imo.

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2018, 06:36:46 PM »

Offline Eja117

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So for the Pippen people. You guys are saying if you trade Pierce from a decent Celtics team to the MJ Bulls for Pippen the Celtics get better and the Bulls get worse? Is that the theory?

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2018, 06:40:16 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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That poll is taken in any blog but a Boston one and it would be even more lopsided folks.   A lot of peeps hate PP.   I dislike Pippen because he played with Jordan whom I don't care or the Bulls.  I loved PP but love aside.   I think at the end of the day Pippen was more versatile.   I love the guy who cherrypicked stats with the shooting.

That was patently absurd.   Pippen was a strong rebounder, passer and defender, he could play point.   Now if I had a gun to my head and had to pick a guy to make a shot or my life depended on it.   I would take Pierce.  Anything else, Pippen.

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2018, 06:52:53 PM »

Online Roy H.

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So for the Pippen people. You guys are saying if you trade Pierce from a decent Celtics team to the MJ Bulls for Pippen the Celtics get better and the Bulls get worse? Is that the theory?

Yes, especially if you adjust for era.


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Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #87 on: June 15, 2018, 07:27:52 PM »

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So for the Pippen people. You guys are saying if you trade Pierce from a decent Celtics team to the MJ Bulls for Pippen the Celtics get better and the Bulls get worse? Is that the theory?
The 2008 Cs were one of the best defensive teams of the last 3 decades. Can you imagine dropping Pierce to put in one of the best defensive players of the last 3 decades to that team while keeping similar offense? Rondo, Ray, Pippen, KG and Perk? Who the heck scores on that team? In the playoffs having Pippen on Lebron, Kobe, and Joe Johnson?

That 2008 squad would have been an all time defensive juggernaut

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2018, 07:48:45 PM »

Online gouki88

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So for the Pippen people. You guys are saying if you trade Pierce from a decent Celtics team to the MJ Bulls for Pippen the Celtics get better and the Bulls get worse? Is that the theory?
The 2008 Cs were one of the best defensive teams of the last 3 decades. Can you imagine dropping Pierce to put in one of the best defensive players of the last 3 decades to that team while keeping similar offense? Rondo, Ray, Pippen, KG and Perk? Who the heck scores on that team? In the playoffs having Pippen on Lebron, Kobe, and Joe Johnson?

That 2008 squad would have been an all time defensive juggernaut
Thinking about the defensive chemistry KG and Pippen wouldíve had is insane. Good luck scoring 80 points on that team, lol

Re: Pierce or Pippen
« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2018, 07:53:05 PM »

Offline Big333223

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So for the Pippen people. You guys are saying if you trade Pierce from a decent Celtics team to the MJ Bulls for Pippen the Celtics get better and the Bulls get worse? Is that the theory?
The 2008 Cs were one of the best defensive teams of the last 3 decades. Can you imagine dropping Pierce to put in one of the best defensive players of the last 3 decades to that team while keeping similar offense? Rondo, Ray, Pippen, KG and Perk? Who the heck scores on that team? In the playoffs having Pippen on Lebron, Kobe, and Joe Johnson?

That 2008 squad would have been an all time defensive juggernaut

Pippen was certainly the better defender but how much more dominant of a defensive team could they have been? As it was, they ranked #1 in opponent ORtg, effective field-goal percentage allowed and in percentage of turnovers forced. 

I think Pierce's defense is underrated, especially when he wasn't having to work as hard to get his points. He wasn't the all-timer that Pippen was but he was very good. I suspect the impact on defense of swapping Pierce and Pippen wouldn't be that drastic.
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