Greg Monroe a big liability???

[manl_lui]

i think it's unfair to judge him so early, we picked him up mid-season and he obviously has some conditioning to do and learn our system

but i thought he performed relatively well in the Pistons game against his buddy Drummond. I think i will judge him come playoff time

[MJohnnyboy]

Keep this in mind: PJ Brown was doing nothing for the Celtics in 2008 up until the ECSF against the Cavs. By that time, he had his feet under him and he figured out Doc's playbook. After that, he gave the Celtics something they didn't have: Interior defense and rebounding in the second unit.

When he finally got into his groove, his minutes steadily rose. His minutes on average during the Banner 17 playoff run:
Hawks: 7.4
Cavaliers: 11.1
Pistons: 16.8
Lakers: 19.5

We know what Moose could potentially give the Celtics. Like others have said, I'm going to wait until the stakes are higher to judge him.

I still believe he can be a great asset.

[manl_lui]

Keep this in mind: PJ Brown was doing nothing for the Celtics in 2008 up until the ECSF against the Cavs. By that time, he had his feet under him and he figured out Doc's playbook. After that, he gave the Celtics something they didn't have: Interior defense and rebounding in the second unit.

When he finally got into his groove, his minutes steadily rose. His minutes on average during the Banner 17 playoff run:
Hawks: 7.4
Cavaliers: 11.1
Pistons: 16.8
Lakers: 19.5

We know what Moose could potentially give the Celtics. Like others have said, I'm going to wait until the stakes are higher to judge him.

I still believe he can be a great asset.

that's a good find and comparison! in my honest opinion, I think Monroe is exactly that, i think he provides rebounding with the 2nd unit with solid post work, I also think that he also helps out in our offensive rebounding department

[Chief Macho]

Wasnt Brown a good defender?  Monroe is terrible.

[JHTruth]

The stats are showing just how poorly the Celts play with him on court-both offensively and defenseivly.He is a liability on switches something Boston is very good at.Obviously Horford and Theis are good at this even Baynes has good lateral.I realize it takes time to integrate but Monroe is a whole different animal than what we are used to and Brad and his teammates need to figure out how to work this or just write the experiment off.What are others thoughts on this?
Is Monroe  a throwback toothless dinosaur .

Setting aside the absurdity of reaching a conclusion after a handful of games, what stats are you looking at?

Because while the offensive numbers are atrocious, his defensive numbers are quite good. His on/off splits are great for points (101 vs. 110) and shooting (47% vs. 53% eFG%). His DBPM is 3.8 which would be best on the team if carried through for a whole season.

To be clear: these numbers are pretty uninformative given the sample size. But, let's at least make sure we get them right before we jump to unfounded conclusions based on them.

People have to understand the defensive efficiency ratings for players are not individual ratings, they are team ratings when that player is on the floor. As you noted, his individual DBPM is excellent. So you can't say, with any honesty at least, that he's a terrible player based on this sporadic, tiny sample size, and then not admit that he is a good defensive player based on the same small, sporadic sample size.

Frankly, the Celtics knew they were getting a throwback post big when they signed him. If Brad can't adjust his Chuck n' Pray Jack Threes "system" to make that effective, then they shouldn't have signed him. He mostly plays with scrubtown anyway, against the Knicks he was out there with guys who shouldn't even be playing this close to the playoffs like ROFL Semi and LOL Larkin.

There's nothing that be said about Monroe with any certainty at this point. He was pretty good in the playoffs for the Bucks last year. We'll just have to see..

[vjcsmoke]

Well Monroe gives us size, post scoring, and rebounding.

It doesn't look like he is used to our system at all.

So I'm going to wait for him to get a couple of weeks of practices in with the team before dismissing him as a possible contributor down the stretch.

I wish we could have added a veteran wing like Joe Johnson off the buyout scrap heap as well.  But right now Monroe is the guy we have to work with.

We are spoiled by how well the likes of Baynes, Horford, and Theis have played defensively. 

I did not expect Monroe to be a defensive stopper, as that has just never been his strength.  But if he can play serviceable team defense in our concept, and contribute with his post scoring and rebounding, I'll be satisfied with the pickup.

I believe what mitigates Monroe's lack of range is that he is a willing passer.  If he gets to the point where he draws a double team in the post, I'm looking forward to seeing him distribute the ball to create open looks for other teammates.

[Boris Badenov]

The stats are showing just how poorly the Celts play with him on court-both offensively and defenseivly.He is a liability on switches something Boston is very good at.Obviously Horford and Theis are good at this even Baynes has good lateral.I realize it takes time to integrate but Monroe is a whole different animal than what we are used to and Brad and his teammates need to figure out how to work this or just write the experiment off.What are others thoughts on this?
Is Monroe  a throwback toothless dinosaur .

Setting aside the absurdity of reaching a conclusion after a handful of games, what stats are you looking at?

Because while the offensive numbers are atrocious, his defensive numbers are quite good. His on/off splits are great for points (101 vs. 110) and shooting (47% vs. 53% eFG%). His DBPM is 3.8 which would be best on the team if carried through for a whole season.

To be clear: these numbers are pretty uninformative given the sample size. But, let's at least make sure we get them right before we jump to unfounded conclusions based on them.

People have to understand the defensive efficiency ratings for players are not individual ratings, they are team ratings when that player is on the floor. As you noted, his individual DBPM is excellent. So you can't say, with any honesty at least, that he's a terrible player based on this sporadic, tiny sample size, and then not admit that he is a good defensive player based on the same small, sporadic sample size.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I wasn't using Drtg. I was using on/off splits, which are more so an individual-level statistic. DBPM is even more so, I would agree with that, but on/off splits tell you an awful lot more than Drtg and Ortg.

And I don't understand your other point - both numbers say that he's good. (The 101/110 is his points allowed on/off split, so it's saying the same thing, directionally, as DBPM).

[Vermont Green]

Agreed. 82 minutes mid-season is enough to make this decision.

 

82 minutes in the real world: just over an hour

82 minutes on Celticsblog: a lifetime. more than most players get before we judge them.

Mike

82 minutes has been enough to reveal that he did not show up in game ready condition.  Even if he wasn't playing regularly in PHO, I don't think it is too much to expect for him to stay in shape.  Now he may get in shape soon enough and help us out but to show up out of shape to me is pretty unprofessional.  "DISAPPOINTED"

[kraidstar]

Wow.

Monrow has been wildly overhyped on this board for years. Posters saying we should send Brooklyn picks for him, sign him to max FA deals etc.

And now he is actually underrated lol.

Let's give him some time, he's basically still in preseason for the C's and needs time to shake off the stink of the Suns organization.

[rollie mass]

Last two games off court 128.4 offensive- defensive 95.7
On court 88.9 offensive-defensive 124.1

[mmmmm]

Hurray for Super Small Sample Sizes!!

Here is another one:  28 total rebounds in 170 possessions played for a rate of  16.5 rebounds per 100 possessions!  Tops on Celtics!

Second place:  Theis at 15.2 per 100 possessions.

And note:  Monroe averaged 17.8 rebounds per 100 at Phoenix and 16.4 per 100 at Milwaukee.  So his BOS rate is actually pretty representative.

Hasn't this blog been whining for rebounds most of the last decade?  Now, we finally have a legit, elite rebounder and ... disappointment because he might take a few games to get up to speed?

Monroe has played just 82 minutes for us.   That's an absurdly small sample.  And that includes the two games right before the break when the entire team laid a couple of big, giant smelly rotten eggs.

A little bit of patience is probably called for here.

[nickagneta]

This blog has been screaming for a big who can rebound and score. Okafor and Monroe have been discussed ad nauseum on this site for years as necessary for having an inside pressence. We finally get Monroe and after 82 minutes of play, he's a liability that isn't needed.

Dang, how about we give the guy a chance?

[Boris Badenov]

Last two games off court 128.4 offensive- defensive 95.7
On court 88.9 offensive-defensive 124.1

So you're disregarding a virtually meaningless 82-minutes, 6-game sample because it doesn't support your point, in favor of a completely meaningless 30-minute, 2-game sample that does support your point?

Come on, Rollie.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Hurray for Super Small Sample Sizes!!

Here is another one:  28 total rebounds in 170 possessions played for a rate of  16.5 rebounds per 100 possessions!  Tops on Celtics!

Second place:  Theis at 15.2 per 100 possessions.

And note:  Monroe averaged 17.8 rebounds per 100 at Phoenix and 16.4 per 100 at Milwaukee.  So his BOS rate is actually pretty representative.

Hasn't this blog been whining for rebounds most of the last decade?  Now, we finally have a legit, elite rebounder and ... disappointment because he might take a few games to get up to speed?

Monroe has played just 82 minutes for us.   That's an absurdly small sample.  And that includes the two games right before the break when the entire team laid a couple of big, giant smelly rotten eggs.

A little bit of patience is probably called for here.

Sure, patience will be helpful in this case.  But, I just think statistics are vastly overvalued on this blog.  The eye test isn't given enough credit here.  Posters like rollie, for example, provide qualitative evidence of someone's strengths/weaknesses/growth, etc.  If Monroe is in or near game shape, you don't need 80 minutes of data to identify that he seems, at the very least, to be slow and play a relatively dated game. 

There is a reason these guys are bought out, and in Monroe's case, bouncing around the league quite a bit in the past year or two. 

That's not to say he won't contribute in the playoffs, perhaps even have a significant impact in a playoff win or two (e.g., James Harrison).  In fact, I think he will (just as I did JH).  But he wasn't going to change the game of basketball in BOS.  The overreactions of CelticsBlog are more often than not optimistic imo.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

As all Celtics fans of recent years should know, the playoffs are mostly a halfcourt game, which depends in large part on having good rebounding—remember how the Lakers killed us in the 2010 Finals? Or how guys like Tristan Thompson have killed us in recent postseasons? That's a big reason why Monroe is here, and he will help.