Kyrie plays a much safer style than IT

[mmmmm]

I loved him in his time here, but moving forward, I'm not sure I see him as a starter on a good team.

And I would say that unless his hip injury has really affected his game compared to last year, there's no reason to believe he can't be the offensive focal point / best overall player on a solid playoff team as soon as he returns to the floor.

How long he will be able to do that is an open question, but I'm mystified by people who continue to assert that he can't be a starter, despite all of the glaring evidence to the contrary.  We were witnesses to that evidence time and time again over the last several years.

IT's defense is bad, yes, but his offense is super elite.  When you consider that his offensive impact is so much greater than many starting point guards whose defense is also bad, if not as bad as Isaiah's, it makes no sense to claim he should slated for a bench role.

I get what you are saying. In some ways I agree with you, but in other ways, I doubt IT moving forward.

Is it possible his success as a starter was at least partially due to CBS? We saw him flourish under CBS, but not under other coaches on winning teams.

Besides, remember what Lebron James did to Kevin Love's production and overall impact? Its not unusual for players to have significantly less of an impact with him.

He wasn't _on_ winning teams before he came to BOS.  Just like Kyrie wasn't _on_ a winning team until Lebron came to CLE.

But your whole take speaks to just not having really payed attention to Thomas prior to his arrival in Boston.   Thomas was already an elite scoring machine long before he came to Boston.  Brad Stevens didn't create Isaiah Thomas.     Thomas already had posted elite scoring efficiencies of .574 TS or higher in every season he was in the league prior to coming here.  His career WS/48 rates were consistently WAY above league average and borderline All-Star level long before he got here.

Heck, in 5 of the very first 6 games Thomas played for Boston, he scored 20+ points (super efficiently).   That didn't happen because of Brad Stevens somehow 'building the team/system' to fit Thomas.  That happened because Thomas arrived here already as one of the top pick & roll ball handlers in the league.

Despite having had to repeatedly fight to convince people to put him on the floor, being labeled for the bench from day 1 as the #60 pick in his draft, going into this season Thomas sat at #3 behind only Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler in total Win Shares earned from his draft class.   Kyrie sits at #4.   Kyrie will probably finally pass Isaiah this year, given that Thomas is not playing.   Maybe.

[PhoSita]

I loved him in his time here, but moving forward, I'm not sure I see him as a starter on a good team.

And I would say that unless his hip injury has really affected his game compared to last year, there's no reason to believe he can't be the offensive focal point / best overall player on a solid playoff team as soon as he returns to the floor.

How long he will be able to do that is an open question, but I'm mystified by people who continue to assert that he can't be a starter, despite all of the glaring evidence to the contrary.  We were witnesses to that evidence time and time again over the last several years.

IT's defense is bad, yes, but his offense is super elite.  When you consider that his offensive impact is so much greater than many starting point guards whose defense is also bad, if not as bad as Isaiah's, it makes no sense to claim he should slated for a bench role.

Yeah.... but also, that was a solitary season of exception offensive greatness. What are the chances that's something sustainable, vs. IT regressing to the mean?

He played his heart hip out for Boston but I am skeptical of his success for the remainder of this season coming back from injury AND to a new team and system (or lack thereof).

See:  2015 Celts, 2016 Celts


It's true Isaiah made a leap last year, but he was an All-Star caliber player before that; last year he took a step toward a credible place in the MVP conversation.

[mmmmm]

I loved him in his time here, but moving forward, I'm not sure I see him as a starter on a good team.

And I would say that unless his hip injury has really affected his game compared to last year, there's no reason to believe he can't be the offensive focal point / best overall player on a solid playoff team as soon as he returns to the floor.

How long he will be able to do that is an open question, but I'm mystified by people who continue to assert that he can't be a starter, despite all of the glaring evidence to the contrary.  We were witnesses to that evidence time and time again over the last several years.

IT's defense is bad, yes, but his offense is super elite.  When you consider that his offensive impact is so much greater than many starting point guards whose defense is also bad, if not as bad as Isaiah's, it makes no sense to claim he should slated for a bench role.

Yeah.... but also, that was a solitary season of exception offensive greatness. What are the chances that's something sustainable, vs. IT regressing to the mean?

He played his heart hip out for Boston but I am skeptical of his success for the remainder of this season coming back from injury AND to a new team and system (or lack thereof).

Last year was a truly historic season of offensive greatness, yes.  But that was not just a "solitary" season of offensive greatness for Thomas.

The _prior_ season, Thomas posted totals of 1823 points and 509 assists.   Do you know how many other Celtics have ever done that?   Two:  Bird and Havlicek.

Thomas has, without much notice because he was (a) short (b) the #60 pick and (c) playing for crap teams like SAC and PHO, nevertheless _always_ been a ridiculous, elite offensive weapon.  His scoring efficiencies and production have been at elite levels since he came in the league.

What made last year different, a 'step up a notch', if you will, was finally having a semblance of a good team around him and a great teammate like Al Horford to play with.

[mmmmm]

Can you break down a season before last year for me and tell me where to find the information? I would love to look up more people.

I'm not sure what you specifically want with "break down a season before last year".

The data on shooting and scoring efficiencies can be found in various places.

https://basketball-reference.com  has basic efficiency data, shot charts, distance splits and corner 3 splits.

https://nba.com/stats has the same plus it also has data on shooting based on how tightly covered by the defense.  It also has player tracking & play-type data.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I loved him in his time here, but moving forward, I'm not sure I see him as a starter on a good team.

And I would say that unless his hip injury has really affected his game compared to last year, there's no reason to believe he can't be the offensive focal point / best overall player on a solid playoff team as soon as he returns to the floor.

How long he will be able to do that is an open question, but I'm mystified by people who continue to assert that he can't be a starter, despite all of the glaring evidence to the contrary.  We were witnesses to that evidence time and time again over the last several years.

IT's defense is bad, yes, but his offense is super elite.  When you consider that his offensive impact is so much greater than many starting point guards whose defense is also bad, if not as bad as Isaiah's, it makes no sense to claim he should slated for a bench role.

Yeah.... but also, that was a solitary season of exception offensive greatness. What are the chances that's something sustainable, vs. IT regressing to the mean?

He played his heart hip out for Boston but I am skeptical of his success for the remainder of this season coming back from injury AND to a new team and system (or lack thereof).

Last year was a truly historic season of offensive greatness, yes.  But that was not just a "solitary" season of offensive greatness for Thomas.

The _prior_ season, Thomas posted totals of 1823 points and 509 assists.   Do you know how many other Celtics have ever done that?   Two:  Bird and Havlicek.

Thomas has, without much notice because he was (a) short (b) the #60 pick and (c) playing for crap teams like SAC and PHO, nevertheless _always_ been a ridiculous, elite offensive weapon.  His scoring efficiencies and production have been at elite levels since he came in the league.

What made last year different, a 'step up a notch', if you will, was finally having a semblance of a good team around him and a great teammate like Al Horford to play with.

Thanks! I did see Thomas play in Sact but you're right I never paid close enough attention to things like this. I fool with people like you, thanks for the explanation!