Kyrie plays a much safer style than IT

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

IT's career Total Shooting Percentage is 58.5% vs Irving's 56.0%, a fairly substantial difference.  IT has topped Irving's TS% in 5 of the 6 years they've been in the NBA together.

There may have been valid reasons to trade for Irving (age, health, defense), but shooting was one advantage that Thomas has had consistently over Irving.

Not going to lie, I have seen people mention TS many times but I don't know what it is, I won't even look it up and pretend like I know what I'm taking about. All I know is Kyrie is a career 46% FG and 38% 3pt shooter and IT4 is 43%FG and 36% 3pt shooter for his career. Not counting this season because it's only 7 games and IT4 hasn't played but this is Kyries 6 to IT4s 7. Kyrie has shot 40% from 3, 3 times (1 39%) while IT4 has never shot 40% (1 39%). Kyrie has only shot 43% or less FG only once and IT4 3 times. Their highest career FG%, Ky 47% (3x) and IT4 46% (1x) and I pretty much told you highest from 3 except Kyrie has shot 41% once.

If I am not mistaken the TS% gives you a better rating for the amount of 3s and FTs you take, which IT did much more of during his time in Boston.

Okay in that case that doesn't mean too much to me because I have already thought that the more you shoot the more times you have a chance to get hot or for instance, if you take 8 a game but you miss 4 early you can still hit 3 of your next 4 and smile, if you take 4 shots there isn't much room to find rhythm and shoot your way out of it. One guy has to make 3 of 8 to avg 37% while the other has to shoot 1.5 of 4.


If IT4 is the better shooter then, my bad, but it sure doesn't seem like it to me. Besides the numbers in my first post I wouldn't be able to dispute how important TS is or should be.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

He generates many fewer free throws, too.

Yeah, he really hasn't gotten some calls this year, but that is the nature of their game.

I like the flow of the game with him running the team. He shoots more efficiently, even if he generates less free throws. He also has a little better court vision.

Long-term, Thomas' health is a concern, with how many times he falls to the court and takes hits. Irving doesn't do that, which might extend his career. Is that worth two more prime seasons? Probably.

He hasn’t been more efficient than IT.

I know people fawn over how much taller he is, and he’s been very impressive to me so far. I also believe his best is yet to come, he’s got another level. His ballhandling is probably the best in the league. His shot is silky. His passing and defense has been better than advertised.

But, Isaiah is coming off a season for the ages. He was more efficient than any Kyrie season (mostly playing alongside LeBron). Kyrie can become the better player, and definitely when considering IT’s hip, but let’s not diminish what Thomas did.

Celtics were a top offensive team last season. They were I believe 4th in assists, so the ball was moving. They shot great from the line, of course led by Isaiah. Four players besides IT shot 3.5+ threes per game, so it wasn’t just one guy hoisting up shots.

If you don’t believe one great offensive player can turn a terrible offensive roster into a great offensive team, I would argue that one terrible defensive player can’t turn a great defensive roster into a terrible defensive team.

He's talking about shooting not scoring. That's why it's comments on Kyrie not getting to the line. Kyrie has been the better shooter.

How can Kyrie be a more efficient shooter but TS% and eFG% (and virtually every other metric) favor IT?

I already told you what I felt about TS%. Now, I think I have seen what eFG% is and that has to do with adding in FTs. That means even less to me. We all know Kyrie doesn't get to the line but what I don't get is why people knock him for being so slippery that he makes people look so dumb that they often can't stick with him to touch him. When they do touch him the refs don't call it most of the time because it doesn't affect him in their opinion (or maybe thy can't see it?).

[Roy H.]

He generates many fewer free throws, too.

Yeah, he really hasn't gotten some calls this year, but that is the nature of their game.

I like the flow of the game with him running the team. He shoots more efficiently, even if he generates less free throws. He also has a little better court vision.

Long-term, Thomas' health is a concern, with how many times he falls to the court and takes hits. Irving doesn't do that, which might extend his career. Is that worth two more prime seasons? Probably.

He hasn’t been more efficient than IT.

I know people fawn over how much taller he is, and he’s been very impressive to me so far. I also believe his best is yet to come, he’s got another level. His ballhandling is probably the best in the league. His shot is silky. His passing and defense has been better than advertised.

But, Isaiah is coming off a season for the ages. He was more efficient than any Kyrie season (mostly playing alongside LeBron). Kyrie can become the better player, and definitely when considering IT’s hip, but let’s not diminish what Thomas did.

Celtics were a top offensive team last season. They were I believe 4th in assists, so the ball was moving. They shot great from the line, of course led by Isaiah. Four players besides IT shot 3.5+ threes per game, so it wasn’t just one guy hoisting up shots.

If you don’t believe one great offensive player can turn a terrible offensive roster into a great offensive team, I would argue that one terrible defensive player can’t turn a great defensive roster into a terrible defensive team.

He's talking about shooting not scoring. That's why it's comments on Kyrie not getting to the line. Kyrie has been the better shooter.

How can Kyrie be a more efficient shooter but TS% and eFG% (and virtually every other metric) favor IT?

I already told you what I felt about TS%. Now, I think I have seen what eFG% is and that has to do with adding in FTs. That means even less to me. We all know Kyrie doesn't get to the line but what I don't get is why people knock him for being so slippery that he makes people look so dumb that they often can't stick with him to touch him. When they do touch him the refs don't call it most of the time because it doesn't affect him in their opinion (or maybe thy can't see it?).

eFG% just accounts for 2PTs and 3PTs, not FTs.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

He generates many fewer free throws, too.

Yeah, he really hasn't gotten some calls this year, but that is the nature of their game.

I like the flow of the game with him running the team. He shoots more efficiently, even if he generates less free throws. He also has a little better court vision.

Long-term, Thomas' health is a concern, with how many times he falls to the court and takes hits. Irving doesn't do that, which might extend his career. Is that worth two more prime seasons? Probably.

He hasn’t been more efficient than IT.

I know people fawn over how much taller he is, and he’s been very impressive to me so far. I also believe his best is yet to come, he’s got another level. His ballhandling is probably the best in the league. His shot is silky. His passing and defense has been better than advertised.

But, Isaiah is coming off a season for the ages. He was more efficient than any Kyrie season (mostly playing alongside LeBron). Kyrie can become the better player, and definitely when considering IT’s hip, but let’s not diminish what Thomas did.

Celtics were a top offensive team last season. They were I believe 4th in assists, so the ball was moving. They shot great from the line, of course led by Isaiah. Four players besides IT shot 3.5+ threes per game, so it wasn’t just one guy hoisting up shots.

If you don’t believe one great offensive player can turn a terrible offensive roster into a great offensive team, I would argue that one terrible defensive player can’t turn a great defensive roster into a terrible defensive team.

He's talking about shooting not scoring. That's why it's comments on Kyrie not getting to the line. Kyrie has been the better shooter.

How can Kyrie be a more efficient shooter but TS% and eFG% (and virtually every other metric) favor IT?

I already told you what I felt about TS%. Now, I think I have seen what eFG% is and that has to do with adding in FTs. That means even less to me. We all know Kyrie doesn't get to the line but what I don't get is why people knock him for being so slippery that he makes people look so dumb that they often can't stick with him to touch him. When they do touch him the refs don't call it most of the time because it doesn't affect him in their opinion (or maybe thy can't see it?).

eFG% just accounts for 2PTs and 3PTs, not FTs.

Thanks. Can you explain the difference between the two so can debate these better. I'm not going to take these things and just accept them like they mean a lot. All I know is if there was a shooting contest I would take Kyrie.

I don't think Kyrie is a much better player (unless he plays defense), I was shocked and a bit mad that we had to add BKN pick. But I still believe he is a better shooter. I have seen people debate statistics outside of the basic ones many times, some people say they're crap or some hold them high, I don't know enough to say which are wrong or right good/bad.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

That last season propped IT4 up so much that you guys hold it in your hearts. I bet not one of you would argue that Kyrie isn't the better shooter seasons prior! Don't front. I'm not even talking player, just shooting.

[colincb]

That last season propped IT4 up so much that you guys hold it in your hearts. I bet not one of you would argue that Kyrie isn't the better shooter seasons prior! Don't front. I'm not even talking player, just shooting.

IT had a higher TS% in 4 of 5 seasons prior to 2016-17.

[colincb]

IT's career Total Shooting Percentage is 58.5% vs Irving's 56.0%, a fairly substantial difference.  IT has topped Irving's TS% in 5 of the 6 years they've been in the NBA together.

There may have been valid reasons to trade for Irving (age, health, defense), but shooting was one advantage that Thomas has had consistently over Irving.

Not going to lie, I have seen people mention TS many times but I don't know what it is, I won't even look it up and pretend like I know what I'm taking about. All I know is Kyrie is a career 46% FG and 38% 3pt shooter and IT4 is 43%FG and 36% 3pt shooter for his career. Not counting this season because it's only 7 games and IT4 hasn't played but this is Kyries 6 to IT4s 7. Kyrie has shot 40% from 3, 3 times (1 39%) while IT4 has never shot 40% (1 39%). Kyrie has only shot 43% or less FG only once and IT4 3 times. Their highest career FG%, Ky 47% (3x) and IT4 46% (1x) and I pretty much told you highest from 3 except Kyrie has shot 41% once.

If I am not mistaken the TS% gives you a better rating for the amount of 3s and FTs you take, which IT did much more of during his time in Boston.

You are correct. Over their careers, IT has a slightly higher 2FG% and FT% and KI a slightly higher 3FG%. However, IT also has a more efficient mix of shots, shooting 0.4 more 3ptFGs, 2.5 more FTs, and 2 fewer 2ptFGs per 100 possessions. Basically works out to about 2/3rds of a point more per game for IT because IT gets to the line more and has a slightly higher eFG%.

FWIW, IT has also averaged slightly more assists per 100 possessions, has a significant edge in offensive ratings and in offensive Box +/-. IT has clearly been the better offensive player statistically and arguably the better player overall.

That's looking backwards though and Danny's looking forward. Irving's 3 years younger, healthier, with more defensive upside, and possibly offensive upside too.

[More Banners]

Numbers aside, I like the way Kyrie runs the offense much more than his predecessor. No "jump passes," and other players seem more involved. Seems like he's running a 5-player scheme instead of just the high s/r with possible kick out to a shooter.  I'm surprised he handles so well, and appears to not carry so often (though it was rarely called).

As a straight up shooter, IT is a bit better; Kyrie is less of a chucker.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

That last season propped IT4 up so much that you guys hold it in your hearts. I bet not one of you would argue that Kyrie isn't the better shooter seasons prior! Don't front. I'm not even talking player, just shooting.

IT had a higher TS% in 4 of 5 seasons prior to 2016-17.

Not going to talk TS again, you saw what I wrote. I'm willing to bet most (if not all) of you wouldn't argue it before last season. We can't go back in time so it's w/e. I don't know if people debated it before last season but I definitely don't remember people arguing who's better.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Numbers aside, I like the way Kyrie runs the offense much more than his predecessor. No "jump passes," and other players seem more involved. Seems like he's running a 5-player scheme instead of just the high s/r with possible kick out to a shooter.  I'm surprised he handles so well, and appears to not carry so often (though it was rarely called).

As a straight up shooter, IT is a bit better; Kyrie is less of a chucker.

Most good players chuck it at times, we just have to roll with it. If someone is going to do it, most times you want it to be the star. I wouldn't want Wade chucking threes though. Bounds of reason.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

All this talk made me want to talk about the OP. People get hurt, it is what it is. For instance, a guy like LBJ is a banger but he hasn't had a major injury to keep him out long but a banger like Bogut is glass. I'd call KO more of a finesse player and he was hurt a lot through his short career. I'm sure you could find like players with opposite career injury totals throughout the NBA.


Now, types of injuries is probably a better way to blame the way they play. I doubt a guy who can't jump much will have an injury like Hayward but I don't really know. I always believed that the way AB use to fight through screens was why he kept screwing up his shoulders (add in not having  the build to withstand the pounding).

[obnoxiousmime]

Aren't officials supposedly stingier with foul calls this year after last year's giftpalooza? I read somewhere that it was a point-of-emphasis in the offseason for the league, meaning some of the cheapo fouls scorers used to draw are no longer called. That means guys like Harden and to a lesser extent Thomas might have less FT opportunities this season.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2734489-report-nba-cracking-down-on-reckless-closeouts-creating-contact-to-draw-foul

I also think that, being significantly smaller than everyone throughout his career, to the point where he is almost famous for being so (it's probably the first thing people think of when they think of Thomas), Thomas probably knows how to take advantage of size bias when it comes to judging contact. Shaq always complained about not getting as many calls as he should have because he was bigger and stronger than everyone he came across. You see the same thing with pass interference in the NFL. It's natural that Thomas would develop this style and use it to his advantage if refs have already been accommodating him throughout his career.

I guess this is just a long way of saying, a player's development can be influenced by factors other than their physical skill set or their mental makeup.

In Kyrie's case, I think he probably was a better shooter earlier than Thomas and more skilled in creating shots through moves and footwork. Thomas probably relied more on his athleticism (his speed is one of his big assets) and perfected his shot a little later. I don't have stats to back this up though, I'm just speculating. A cursory glance at Thomas' stats from college and his career do show from age 19-22 in college he went from .291 - .349 as a 3 pt. shooter. Kyrie only had a small college sample size, but at the same age as Thomas was in his first college year, Kyrie in his rookie NBA season was able to shoot .399 from the NBA 3 pt. line (1.4/3.6 att). He was very, very advanced shooter at a young age.

[Larrybird0123]

He generates many fewer free throws, too.

Yeah, he really hasn't gotten some calls this year, but that is the nature of their game.

I like the flow of the game with him running the team. He shoots more efficiently, even if he generates less free throws. He also has a little better court vision.

Long-term, Thomas' health is a concern, with how many times he falls to the court and takes hits. Irving doesn't do that, which might extend his career. Is that worth two more prime seasons? Probably.

He hasn’t been more efficient than IT.

I know people fawn over how much taller he is, and he’s been very impressive to me so far. I also believe his best is yet to come, he’s got another level. His ballhandling is probably the best in the league. His shot is silky. His passing and defense has been better than advertised.

But, Isaiah is coming off a season for the ages. He was more efficient than any Kyrie season (mostly playing alongside LeBron). Kyrie can become the better player, and definitely when considering IT’s hip, but let’s not diminish what Thomas did.

Celtics were a top offensive team last season. They were I believe 4th in assists, so the ball was moving. They shot great from the line, of course led by Isaiah. Four players besides IT shot 3.5+ threes per game, so it wasn’t just one guy hoisting up shots.

If you don’t believe one great offensive player can turn a terrible offensive roster into a great offensive team, I would argue that one terrible defensive player can’t turn a great defensive roster into a terrible defensive team.

He's talking about shooting not scoring. That's why it's comments on Kyrie not getting to the line. Kyrie has been the better shooter.

How can Kyrie be a more efficient shooter but TS% and eFG% (and virtually every other metric) favor IT?

I already told you what I felt about TS%. Now, I think I have seen what eFG% is and that has to do with adding in FTs. That means even less to me. We all know Kyrie doesn't get to the line but what I don't get is why people knock him for being so slippery that he makes people look so dumb that they often can't stick with him to touch him. When they do touch him the refs don't call it most of the time because it doesn't affect him in their opinion (or maybe thy can't see it?).

eFG% just accounts for 2PTs and 3PTs, not FTs.

Thanks. Can you explain the difference between the two so can debate these better. I'm not going to take these things and just accept them like they mean a lot. All I know is if there was a shooting contest I would take Kyrie.

I don't think Kyrie is a much better player (unless he plays defense), I was shocked and a bit mad that we had to add BKN pick. But I still believe he is a better shooter. I have seen people debate statistics outside of the basic ones many times, some people say they're crap or some hold them high, I don't know enough to say which are wrong or right good/bad.

He is right it doesn't factor in ft's. 3pt shot has more value then a 2pt shot so eFG% figures the difference in value. Example if someone like Shaq Howard etc that only takes 2pt attempts shoots 50% their fg% would be 50% and their eFG% would also be 50%

Example 2 if someone only shoots 3pt attempts and their 3pt% was 40% their fg% would be 40% but their eFG% would be 60%

It averages the true value of those 2 together.

If a 2pt shot equals 100% value then a 3pt shot would equal 150% because your gaining 50% more points per make.

If you take the 150% and turn it into a decimal you get 1.5 and multiply it by the 3pt% it will give you the eFG value of that persons 3pt%

This is why I so dislike FG% because if a player has a low % it tells one nothing without knowing all 4 factors. How many 2pt attempts, how many 3pt attempts, what 2pt% is and what 3pt% is. That's what is great about eFG%. It figures all 4 factors above together while including the true value of the 3pt shot

[rollie mass]

As the topic states Kyrie plays safer style.The league has taken steps to reduce injuries.It has changed season scheduling ,landing space taking a jump shot.Moving screens and hip checks by screener.
I have posted concerns about high flyers and landing last year.
I posted enjoy the genius and gift of Isaiah and how it could be snuffed out
I suggested Green tutoring Jaylen on controlling the dunk and landings
I was happy Jaylen skipped the Dunk Contest saving his knees
I posted a dunk is only worth 2 points but the crowd loves it -till it goes wrong.
Hayward was helpless against the combination of Lebron ,Crowder and a poor lob.
Remember Isaiah and his bruised back. OR DARRYL STINGLEY
There was one crop of rookies that got decimated Gordon,Exum,Noel,Randle Parker,Marcus,Lavine,Winslow-these were young kids pushing the envelope

If you noticed the topic is Kyrie plays a safer style than IT-the later use of smarter was my personal view of the longer term and injuries not to demean or diminish Isaiah or be used as IQ comparison.
I would like to see Jaylen control his high flying, the last game i thought he could have had his arm pulled out of socket with a block from behind.
Baynes tumbled from mid air collision trying to stop a monster dunk-it looked like NBA wrestling
The money these teams are paying may cause Silver to change the landscape -i noticed fewer illegal screens -this should benefit Marcus,Rozier and Kyrie defensively and cut down possible injuries.Remember Crowder getting decked but really the insidious hip check or knee is more dangerous.
 On breakaways  fouls should not be condoned
-Rozier does not land well so Kyrie should teach him some tricks
There is much to say for durability and  playing smart.Sometimes less is more.

PS-Get those cameramen out of the way before someone gets hurt

[Celtics4ever]

Getting to the line is a huge strength, not a detriment.

Pretty sure Shaq and DeAndre Jordan would not agree with this quote.  For guys who can shoot, I agree, though.