Lowe: C's leaning toward starting Horford at Center

[Beat LA]

I suggest you avail yourself of how insanely intricate modern offensive NBA schemes are. Coach Nick and Coach Daniel youtube vids are a good start.

I actually get bored watching college games. There are a few teams (not schools who rely on freshman) which are semi-entertaining

Thanks for the suggestion.  Those guys are okay, I guess, but Nick is kind of annoying with advertising those shirts now, plus, Daniel calls Houston's offense "Basketball Art", and I just can't.  Between Harden dribbling the air out of the ball, putting his arms out there to draw fouls and stuff, the nauseating amount of three pointers, and a big man in Capela who really has next to nothing in terms of skills and simply "rolls" for dunks all the time, the Rockets are probably the principle offender in terms of what I stated previously.  It's just terrible basketball to watch, imo, and the ringleader is easily one of the least enjoyable players to watch in the league, imo, but I full well understand that I'm in the minority, here. 

I don't mind using the pick and roll in transition, for example, as that's when it's most effective, imo, due to the defense being out of position, but in the half court on every play?  Barf.  It's just two guys involved while the rest of them just stand around all the time, which is no way to play the game, imo, as so many important skills are lost in translation, so to speak, and the result is a large number of players who can either dribble or shoot, but not both, lol.  Ugh.  Even the famous duel between Pierce and Lebron in Game 7 in 2008 was awful to watch, imo.  The entire game was literally nothing more than Pierce running the high pick and roll with, say, KG, followed by Lebron doing the exact same thing on the other end on every single play, which is garbage, imo, but that's all from Doc's days as a Hawk where they did nothing but middle pick and roll and getting out on the fast break, whereas in the half court setting, they had next to nothing, imo, and the Pistons did much of the same.  The only difference was that they were deeper and ran a couple more plays for their guards, which I actually like, but essentially, that's all it was.  Pick and roll or pick and pop with Laimbeer or Edwards all game long while the rest of the guys just stood around, and the result was a very watered-down product for the fans, imo, as so many subtle nuances of the game were lost, which was made all the worse by the fact that, since they were the only team that had a tremendous amount of success against the Bulls, every team, like the Knicks, copied Detroit's style, further reducing the game and making Chicago look like the Celtics and Lakers from the 80s, when the reality is that the triangle offense is really nothing more than a watered-down version of Celtic basketball, imo, but against teams like the Knicks, it looked unstoppable at times, kind of like how the Warriors look now.  It's nothing new, but because it's so much different from everyone else everybody acts like they've reinvented the sport, and even they use the pick and roll far too much, for my taste. 

Okay, rant over . At least Stevens occasionally uses the scissor play, although I have no idea why he does so in the middle of the court.  It's slightly better than Doc saying, "Get stops and push the basketball." I really wonder if at any point someone ever asked him during a timeout or whatever, "what about the half court offense?"  My guess is that he'd just keep saying, "Get stops and push the ball." Dear lord.  I mean, ask yourself, would you want to play with a guy who limits your role to nothing more than setting a pick for him because he can't get a shot on his own or whatever?  It would drive me nuts.  How selfish can you possibly be?  Just let me touch the deng ball for like, two seconds, I promise that I'll give it back, lol . Ugh.

Analytics are to blame for the change in style of the game and the erosion of the mid-range game, but so has the decrease of the quality big man. Big players aren't being taught the inside game at the AAU and high school levels any more. Big guys are expected to develop their outside games and dribbling ability much more and their post game footwork and post game shooting much less. No one is taught how to box out anymore, its all about using your athleticism to jump over guys to get rebounds.

Not only that, but they never call over-the-back fouls, anymore, and exacerbate the problem by citing players for infractions when they actually DO attempt to box out.  It's like they're saying, "but, but, you can't put yourself between Lebron and the basket.  How is he supposed to get a rebound?  That's not fair!  Wah!"

I also agree on the skill development, or severe lack thereof, regarding post play.  The whole game is inverted now, with guards and small forwards being the only guys who even try to post up, and there aren't that many of those guys left.

As for the pick and roll, pick and pop game, its no more prevalent than decades ago its just being done farther from the basket. Also, screens off ball to open up three point shooters and cuts to open areas for passes to do easy cuts and alley oops are seen more. What I also notice being different in the game are designed passes cross court to weak side open shooters. That sedom happened before 2000.

While I disagree about the part regarding the pick and pop, I think one of the main reasons why those cross-court passes are made now is because, at least imo, no one picks them off, for some reason.  Those passes, and many that the Warriors use, for example, never would have worked against, say, the Bulls, never mind teams in the 80s, imo.  The most ridiculous kind are the ones where a guy with no offensive ability sets a pick for a player like Harden and rolls to the hoop to draw the defender from the nearby shooter, and the defense always falls for it.  That "play" is designed for the shooter to get open every single time, not hit, say, Capela.  Harden has no intention of giving that dude the ball, but the three is always open . Like, how many times can you fall for the same trick before something clicks?  Not only that, but none of these guys ever get their hands up when defending the pick and roll to take the passing angles away and throw off the timing of the play, at least.  They just watch the ball sail over their head as if they're watching a Comet in the sky, like they've never seen it before .

I know we talk about rebounding a great deal, and I've always considered it a very important part of the game. I'm old school I guess...I hate giving up offensive rebounds, it drives my crazy.!

But in todays NBA coaches are more interested in team rebounding, and bigs that can run the floor and get back on defense, protect against open 3's, much more than in the past.

Maybe in the scheme of things the C's don't have the same concerns about it, as we do.

You and me, both.  It's so disheartening to play 24 seconds of defense only to surrender the rebound.  I mean, there's no point in defending if you can't rebound.  Your defense is really only good as your, well, rebounding, imo.  At this point Boston might as well just play zone all the time.  We still won't be able to grab a board to save our life, but at least the guys can conserve some energy, lol .

The funniest part is that Stevens doesn't seem to understand that he's engineered his own demise, in terms of rebounding, by "switching everything". Like, I guess the whole watered-down players thing also extends to the coaching realm, quite obviously.  Please don't tell me that we've taken guys like Brown, Yabu, and Tatum for their "switchability" because Stevens can't devise a defensive strategy without players like that and Morris, etc.  I can't believe that switchability is even a word, lol . It's just like "shot-maker".  Good grief.

Sorry, everyone, the whole thing is just beyond frustrating to me.  Sigh.

[hwangjini_1]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

[vjcsmoke]

It comes down to this.  You have to ask yourself, if Al Horford doesn't play Center then who does.  Aaron Baynes?  You really want him in the starting 5 or does he look more like a role player coming off the bench.  I feel the latter is true.

Losing Zizic might actually hurt us this season.  His one great skill was rebounding and size.  He might have developed into a Tristan Thompson (or Perkins on the low end) type for us.  So... since neither Tristan Thompson isn't a Celtic what would be a good alternative on the cheap?

I believe we have one more roster spot and that should be earmarked for a rebounder/big man.

[mmmmm]

What analysis!

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/09/boston_celtics_news_team_leani.html

I would absolutely love this, and I, along with several other posters, have long been arguing for this type of starting lineup change. This would most likely mean Morris starting at the 4, which would give us maximal spacing, shooting, and passing, and it would give Kyrie, Brown/Smart, Hayward, and Morris all kinds of room to take their man to the basket, along with a ton of options for PnR play.

Great, just what we need - more pick and roll play .

What world are you living in? PnR is today's NBA bread and butter play. 

Umm, how about one in which there's much more to the sport than the already nauseating amount of pick and roll play?  Seriously, do these coaches and players even know how to do anything else? It's just pick and roll, shooting a ton of threes, and dunks by big guys who can do nothing but move their feet.  There's no post play, especially by big men, the midrange game is almost completely nonexistent, next to zero off-ball movement, no exploiting of mismatches and/or foul situations, and a complete lack of overall strategy.  Basketball used to be a game of chess, and now it's not even checkers, imo.  Guys can't even get a layup off of a 3-on-1 fast break, anymore.  They either botch the play completely or bail the defense out by taking another three, because analytics.  Yawn.     

Wow.  You must have hated watching the Red Auerbach Celtics.   It was his favorite play:

I expected Red Auerbach to be shrewd, smart and competitive; he is all these things—and he is softer than I expected, less harsh and more of an aesthete, even as an observer of basketball. The fast break is his favorite play for winning, and winning is his favorite occupation—but for the beauty of it, his favorite play is the pick-and-roll; "It has to be timed just so; the guy with the ball has to make a decision whether to go, to shoot or to pass." As he speaks his hands gesture and he smiles with something like tenderness; he is like a gourmet describing the best omelette he ever ate, or a theater-lover the best Hedda Gabler. Red Auerbach loves precision of execution—in basketball, in tennis, in baseball and in letter-openers.

https://thestacks.deadspin.com/the-one-question-red-auerbach-wouldnt-answer-1684224616

[Beat LA]

What analysis!

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/09/boston_celtics_news_team_leani.html

I would absolutely love this, and I, along with several other posters, have long been arguing for this type of starting lineup change. This would most likely mean Morris starting at the 4, which would give us maximal spacing, shooting, and passing, and it would give Kyrie, Brown/Smart, Hayward, and Morris all kinds of room to take their man to the basket, along with a ton of options for PnR play.

Great, just what we need - more pick and roll play .

What world are you living in? PnR is today's NBA bread and butter play. 

Umm, how about one in which there's much more to the sport than the already nauseating amount of pick and roll play?  Seriously, do these coaches and players even know how to do anything else? It's just pick and roll, shooting a ton of threes, and dunks by big guys who can do nothing but move their feet.  There's no post play, especially by big men, the midrange game is almost completely nonexistent, next to zero off-ball movement, no exploiting of mismatches and/or foul situations, and a complete lack of overall strategy.  Basketball used to be a game of chess, and now it's not even checkers, imo.  Guys can't even get a layup off of a 3-on-1 fast break, anymore.  They either botch the play completely or bail the defense out by taking another three, because analytics.  Yawn.     

Wow.  You must have hated watching the Red Auerbach Celtics.   It was his favorite play:

I expected Red Auerbach to be shrewd, smart and competitive; he is all these things—and he is softer than I expected, less harsh and more of an aesthete, even as an observer of basketball. The fast break is his favorite play for winning, and winning is his favorite occupation—but for the beauty of it, his favorite play is the pick-and-roll; "It has to be timed just so; the guy with the ball has to make a decision whether to go, to shoot or to pass." As he speaks his hands gesture and he smiles with something like tenderness; he is like a gourmet describing the best omelette he ever ate, or a theater-lover the best Hedda Gabler. Red Auerbach loves precision of execution—in basketball, in tennis, in baseball and in letter-openers.

https://thestacks.deadspin.com/the-one-question-red-auerbach-wouldnt-answer-1684224616

I wasn't around, then, but didn't those teams at least run those famous 5-7 plays that always worked in spite of their simplicity?  I thought that I read that somewhere.

[crimson_stallion]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so, because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent. 

[Androslav]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent.

We already found a way last year how to use him properly. He was the best center in the east, in his 1st season in Boston. The DH's, the space he provides, switching on D, it will only get better with time, chemistry and more talented teammates. His game will age gracefully. Horford is a lovely player, just not a banger.

[crimson_stallion]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent.

We already found a way last year how to use him properly. He was the best center in the east, in his 1st season in Boston. The DH's, the space he provides, switching on D, it will only get better with time, chemistry and more talented teammates. His game will age gracefully. Horford is a lovely player, just not a banger.

What chemistry?  All those guys Horford adjusted to playing with last year, they're all gone.  He's going to have to start all over again.

Best center n the East? Yea, probably,  But that's not exactly saying much - what other centres are there in the East there are even worth mentioning?

Hassan Whiteside?
Dwight Howard?
Brook Lopez?

To be honest I would argue Embiid is better (if he could stay on the court) but other hen that there isn't exactly a lot of competition. 

Regardless I'm not the slightest bit a fan of Al Hoford as our starting center until he starts acting like a center and rebounding the ball.

Kevin Love is living proof that it IS possible for an athletic, soft, undersized, jump shooting big to grab 8-10 rebounds a night. So chop-chop Al, show at least some sign of caring...

[Beat LA]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent.

We already found a way last year how to use him properly. He was the best center in the east, in his 1st season in Boston. The DH's, the space he provides, switching on D, it will only get better with time, chemistry and more talented teammates. His game will age gracefully. Horford is a lovely player, just not a banger.

What chemistry?  All those guys Horford adjusted to playing with last year, they're all gone.  He's going to have to start all over again.

Best center n the East? Yea, probably,  But that's not exactly saying much - what other centres are there in the East there are even worth mentioning?

Hassan Whiteside?
Dwight Howard?
Brook Lopez?

To be honest I would argue Embiid is better (if he could stay on the court) but other hen that there isn't exactly a lot of competition. 

Regardless I'm not the slightest bit a fan of Al Hoford as our starting center until he starts acting like a center and rebounding the ball.

Kevin Love is living proof that it IS possible for an athletic, soft, undersized, jump shooting big to grab 8-10 rebounds a night. So chop-chop Al, show at least some sign of caring...

He's a Laker, now, remember?  And Horford has never been that much of a rebounder, so I wouldn't suddenly expect that to change, especially after those pectoral surgeries and the fact that he's on the back nine of his career, now, so to speak, but hey, let's just keep switching everything, anyway. Ugh.

[crimson_stallion]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent.

We already found a way last year how to use him properly. He was the best center in the east, in his 1st season in Boston. The DH's, the space he provides, switching on D, it will only get better with time, chemistry and more talented teammates. His game will age gracefully. Horford is a lovely player, just not a banger.

What chemistry?  All those guys Horford adjusted to playing with last year, they're all gone.  He's going to have to start all over again.

Best center n the East? Yea, probably,  But that's not exactly saying much - what other centres are there in the East there are even worth mentioning?

Hassan Whiteside?
Dwight Howard?
Brook Lopez?

To be honest I would argue Embiid is better (if he could stay on the court) but other hen that there isn't exactly a lot of competition. 

Regardless I'm not the slightest bit a fan of Al Hoford as our starting center until he starts acting like a center and rebounding the ball.

Kevin Love is living proof that it IS possible for an athletic, soft, undersized, jump shooting big to grab 8-10 rebounds a night. So chop-chop Al, show at least some sign of caring...

He's a Laker, now, remember?  And Horford has never been that much of a rebounder, so I wouldn't suddenly expect that to change, especially after those pectoral surgeries and the fact that he's on the back nine of his career, now, so to speak, but hey, let's just keep switching everything, anyway. Ugh.

Well to be fair, he did average 9.6 RPG over his first 6 seasons...and somehow proceeded to average 7.2 RPG in the next four seasons. 

He also shot around 55% from the field over his first six seasons...which looks to have dropped to around 51% or so over his last four.

He also had a Free Throw rate of >29% in four of his first six seasons...but in the next four he has managed to scratch the 20% mark only once (and only just, at that). 

His FG% and TS% last season were also the lowest of his career, while his turnovers were the 4th highest of his career.  His WS/48 was also the lowest he has recorded since his rookie year, while he was earning almost 3x more money then he has in any prior season.

But apparently we have Brad Stevens and he's worked out how to get the best out of our $27m man, so it's all good yay excitement!!!!

[Androslav]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent.

We already found a way last year how to use him properly. He was the best center in the east, in his 1st season in Boston. The DH's, the space he provides, switching on D, it will only get better with time, chemistry and more talented teammates. His game will age gracefully. Horford is a lovely player, just not a banger.

What chemistry?  All those guys Horford adjusted to playing with last year, they're all gone.  He's going to have to start all over again.

Best center n the East? Yea, probably,  But that's not exactly saying much - what other centres are there in the East there are even worth mentioning?

Hassan Whiteside?
Dwight Howard?
Brook Lopez?

To be honest I would argue Embiid is better (if he could stay on the court) but other then that there isn't exactly a lot of competition. 

Regardless I'm not the slightest bit a fan of Al Hoford as our starting center until he starts acting like a center and rebounding the ball.

Kevin Love is living proof that it IS possible for an athletic, soft, undersized, jump shooting big to grab 8-10 rebounds a night. So chop-chop Al, show at least some sign of caring...

Bolded - crimson, please read the context before replying to it.

In my eyes, he is the best eastern center, and IMO that has its weight (even though East has seen its better days at the C. spot), as we need to play the best east teams to secure the NBA finals, our goal.

I can remind you that Love's Minny was 6th in rebs twice and never made the playoffs, while our last championship generation (league bottom in rebs) and Miami 2012-14 champs had the 6,8 rpg (playoff average in his last 3 Miami years, center years) Bosh at the center.
Basketball came a long way since Dikembe, Michael Cage and Kevin "My grandma kinda likes you" Willis. Rebounding is not as valuable as some other things, like scoring.

And remember that it is physically impossible to space the floor 25 feet from the basket and box out and post/up at the same time.

[Somebody]

just to add to this thread on horford, i think CBS values his passing and pick and roll play as much, maybe more, than he does horford's under the basket playing.

i admit, horford is really good at what CBS wants. here is an interesting article with videos to show his abilities.

https://www.stats.com/insights/nba/al-horfords-usage-and-impact-in-year-one-with-the-celtics/

I would sure hope so because his play under the basket last season was pretty much completely non-existent.

We already found a way last year how to use him properly. He was the best center in the east, in his 1st season in Boston. The DH's, the space he provides, switching on D, it will only get better with time, chemistry and more talented teammates. His game will age gracefully. Horford is a lovely player, just not a banger.

What chemistry?  All those guys Horford adjusted to playing with last year, they're all gone.  He's going to have to start all over again.

Best center n the East? Yea, probably,  But that's not exactly saying much - what other centres are there in the East there are even worth mentioning?

Hassan Whiteside?
Dwight Howard?
Brook Lopez?

To be honest I would argue Embiid is better (if he could stay on the court) but other then that there isn't exactly a lot of competition. 

Regardless I'm not the slightest bit a fan of Al Hoford as our starting center until he starts acting like a center and rebounding the ball.

Kevin Love is living proof that it IS possible for an athletic, soft, undersized, jump shooting big to grab 8-10 rebounds a night. So chop-chop Al, show at least some sign of caring...

Bolded - crimson, please read the context before replying to it.

In my eyes, he is the best eastern center, and IMO that has its weight (even though East has seen its better days at the C. spot), as we need to play the best east teams to secure the NBA finals, our goal.

I can remind you that Love's Minny was 6th in rebs twice and never made the playoffs, while our last championship generation (league bottom in rebs) and Miami 2012-14 champs had the 7,3 rpg (playoff avg in 4 years) Bosh at the center.
Basketball came a long way since Dikembe, Michael Cage and Kevin "My grandma kinda likes you" Willis. Rebounding is not as valuable as some other things, like scoring.

And remember that it is physically impossible to space the floor 25 feet from the basket and box out and post/up at the same time.

Wilt Chamberlain disagrees. With the 3 point hook shot anything is possible.

[Eja117]

I would only consider it if the entire team realizes if they go all Jeff Green on rebounding they will be summarily executed painfully.

[D Dub]

Anyone remember why AB averaged so many rebounds last year?

In part because Brad is coaching his bigs to hold their Box Out instead of chasing the rebound.

Let the wings run and chase the boards, then your big need only focus on boxing out. 

That's why we don't need Baynes to start.   It's why we aren't going to really need Bogut.

It's also why Al can play five, be in the middle of all the P/R, space the floor and get back on D without having to worry about the posters at CB complaining about his stats. 

Speaking of stats, just wait and see how many boards Jaylen ends up averaging. 
He is going to be a fantasy steal this year.

[Bobshot]

The Celtics have a lot of pieces--and a lot of questions. This is almost a new team. A big challenge for Stevens to put the pieces together.

One question is if Tatum is ready to play the 4. Probably not at his age, but he'll get some looks. Or Theis?  Another is how the rim protectors fit. Most likely in key matchups, or different parts of the game. And then there's the question of who starts at the 2. Smart or Brown? And what about all those wings? Is there a stud in that group?

You have to wonder if this team can come out running, with all those changes. It might take time to gel.