Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season

[makaveli]

Whatever the stats says, he simply cannot be a worst defender than IT. Bulls, Wizards and Cavs all had the same game plan against us, based on IT for his lack of height and ability, there is no way Kyrie will be targeted the same.
Yeah, some of you guys think that he will improve drastically, which is not going to happen, most likely Smart and Brown will guard great PG's and Kyrie will spot the shooters.
Last year Cleveland was all over the place on D, year before they were smothering.
Celtics will surely be a better defensive team than last year and so will Kyrie.

[The Oracle]

A lot of it is individual, at least when looking at FG% allowed. If it was all team based, you'd expect all the Cavaliers to have poor defensive stats. They didn't.

That would be true if a basketball game was a 48 set of 1-on-1s. It isn't. The Celtics went to great lengths to hide Thomas on defense last season, especially in the playoffs. Remember the endless switching so that he can stay in the corner at all times?

Defense is a team concept.  Defenders are asked to do things that may be detrimental to their own individual DFG% numbers but are better for the success of the defense.  Example; Asking K.O. and Horford to accept switches onto guards/wings and press the 3 point line is bad for them but may be beneficial to the team overall.
 
Lebron's numbers would be much better if he was surrounded by excellent defenders.  I.T.'s numbers would be way worse if he played in Minnesota or for the Lakers last year and/or wasn't coddled to.

[Smitty77]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes?

Danny KNEW that as constructed we were NOT even NEAR the Warriors, so I rolled the dice.

Smitty77

[Roy H.]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

[Androslav]

ITs biggest flaws od defense are same as Kyries, just more pronounced and impossible to correct.

         Kyrie                                      Thomas

6'3'' - good                                      5'9'' - bad
25y - good (still some upside)           28y - so-so (no defensive upside)
finals defense - passable at times      finals defense - not seen
playoff defense - passable at times    playoff defense - hiding in corners, Smart, Crowder & co.
                                                                               had to switch the defender in advance to
                                                                               prevent the unfavorable switch on IT
                                                                               that will occur on next action.   
Health - good                                   Health - not cleared for basketball activities

[Smitty77]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

Just pointing out that it sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me Roy!  Give it time.  We do NOT know if Kyrie will be a true superstar or not.  And I do believe that IT's hip health has a LOT to do with his defense going forward or utter lack thereof.

Smitty77

[Smitty77]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

And I do think it is ON TOPIC to compare Kyrie's and IT's defense.

Smitty77

[iadera]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

And I do think it is ON TOPIC to compare Kyrie's and IT's defense.

Smitty77

We are talking about defense all the time. Nobody considers that Kyrie is an offensive upgrade too. And he definitively is.

[Roy H.]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

And I do think it is ON TOPIC to compare Kyrie's and IT's defense.

Smitty77

Right. So do so.

[Smitty77]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

And I do think it is ON TOPIC to compare Kyrie's and IT's defense.

Smitty77

Right. So do so.

I think that the argument about TEAM defense is where to begin.  You also have to compare the quality of coaching and emphasis on D between Brad Stevens and Lue.

Given those two major factors, I am excited to see how Kyrie will defend playing under Brad!!

That being said, I think it is now imperative to sign Tony Allen to mentor and teach Kyrie, and Jaylen, and Jayson, etc. how to defend.

Smitty77

[Sketch5]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Roy,

Do you know that IT's hip is healthy?  Will it ever be 100%??  He will be 30 when he starts playing under his HUGE contract!  You good with that?

Sour grapes.

Smitty77

What does any of that have to do with Kyrie's defense?  Please stay on topic.

It's a big part of why DA traded for Irving. You attacking Irvings D is an argument against the trade. And you can't say it's not, because we aren't going after any other players poor D.

At worst its a wash with poor D. BUT, Irvings height doesn't come into effect as bad, teams wont try to make miss matches like they did with IT, letting Stevens keep Irving on the floor at the end of games on D unlike he could with IT, and not having to use time outs just to get him back in.

Irving did a good job on Curry during the finals during their win. I think if he puts his mind to it, he can. I don't trust the nerd numbers as much as the eye test. I don't think Irving will ever be an elite defender, maybe on the line of Allen was during their run, were the team defense helped out with him more. But Stevens wont have to hide Irving as much as he did with IT. 

[Ed Hollison]

I actually tried to start a discussion on the Celtics' team defense post-trade here:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=93211.0

I think they'll actually be better. Here was my logic:

1) Irving is a blah defender, but he's still much better than IT. Irving has never been a good defender, but he's got the tools to be adequate with the right coaching and effort. As many mentioned, the sheer fact that he's a half-foot taller than IT means you won't have to "hide" him on D the same way, with the remaining four players compensating. Think IT covering Otto Porter in the ECF, for instance.

2) Bradley was great on ball, but undersized and not very versatile. Bradley was great on quick guards, but was undersized against a lot of SGs (he had trouble with Bradley Beal in the same ECF series, for instance). The remaining wings on this team -- Hayward, Brown, Ojeleye, Tatum, Nader -- and also Smart are switchable 2 through 4 on D.

3) Crowder's D had slipped to some extent. I'm not sure if it was his ankle or what, but Crowder was not a standout defender last year. That's not to say he's not a useful role player, but I don't think we are going to suffer greatly from losing him.

4) Defensive rebounding should improve. You swapped Amir for Baynes (which I think is a plus given how Amir had slowed), you picked up another decent rebounder in Morris, and you're starting PG is now much bigger. Bradley actually helped a lot with defensive rebounding last year , but you're giving those minutes to the likes of Smart and Jaylen Brown, who are also good on the glass.

[Dino Pitino]

Fans seem to believe that Kyrie simultaneously will become an adequate defender while upping his scoring. That's simply unrealistic.

You say "fans" as if you aren't one. Like you're more of a fan of "realism" than you are of the Celtics. It's hardly unrealistic to think Irving will up his scoring a bit, and it's hardly unrealistic to think Stevens can get him to play adequate defense, and it's a realistic possibility that those two things will happen together.

[Roy H.]

Fans seem to believe that Kyrie simultaneously will become an adequate defender while upping his scoring. That's simply unrealistic.

You say "fans" as if you aren't one. Like you're more of a fan of "realism" than you are of the Celtics. It's hardly unrealistic to think Irving will up his scoring a bit, and it's hardly unrealistic to think Stevens can get him to play adequate defense, and it's a realistic possibility that those two things will happen together.

Where's the energy going to come from? Does Kyrie have another gear that he's never shown?

A lot of people are arguing "tools" and "effort". If he exerts significantly more effort on defense, how do you anticipate that he'll also take on a bigger offensive role?

[Moranis]

Most truly great offensive players get lazy on defense as they age.  Yes it isn't a good sign that Irving has never tried defensively, but it is incredibly taxing on the body to go full bore on both ends of the floor for any real length of time.  Even the all time greats focus less and less on defense when they get older so they can remain fresher offensively (Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, James, even Durant has started that).  Leonard is still pretty young in the scheme of things, and he doesn't quite have the all around offensive load that Durant and James have, but over time even Leonard will focus less on one side of the floor to remain fresher for the other.  It is the nature of the beast.

I bring this up, because I'd rather have the killer on offense then a guy that works so hard to improve defensively and that he becomes quite average offensively.  For the Celtics to be a real contender, they need Irving to be an unstoppable force offensively.  If he can remain that offensive force and improve his defensive effort and ability that would be great and would start putting him into the all time great category, but if not, if he stays the offensive weapon I'm ok with that.  Ideally I'd like Irving to become a bit more like Iverson on defense i.e. a guy that picks his spots, disrupts lanes, etc.  If he can become that level of defensive player and not lose anything offensively then Boston could end up being a title winning team with the Irving/Hayward duo being supplemented by Brown, Tatum, LAL, Smart, etc.