ESPN: Kyrie no longer wants to play w/ Lebron = reason for request. trade soon?

[ETNCeltics]

Being in the Cleveland area the last 4 years or so, I've seen a lot of Irving, including the last season before James.  The only person that can consistently stop Irving from getting off whatever shot he wants, is Irving.  What I mean is, he is pretty reckless with the ball.  He commits a lot of stupid turnovers (things like bouncing the ball off his foot).  He is perhaps the greatest ball handler the league has ever seen.  He ranks right up there with guys like Iverson in that regard, however unlike Iverson, he is an excellent shooter from every where on the court.  Although also unlike Iverson, he doesn't like contact, so he doesn't get to the line as much as you would expect for someone who drives as much as he does.  Tying into that recklessness is that Irving quite simply is not a very good decision maker or playmaker.  While no one can consistently stop him from getting to where he wants to go on the court, he often makes the wrong decision once he gets there.  He also doesn't have great vision and he is an average at best passer (for a PG).  One of the reasons the Cavs are so bad with Irving and without James on the floor is because Irving just isn't a great playmaker (while James is one of the best ever). 

That said, much of that also very much describes Thomas, however as a result of Thomas' size, he can be thwarted a lot easier than Irving can, especially against the better teams that you play multiple times in a row in the playoffs.  Also, while Irving rarely shows any interest in playing defense, when he tries he can at least be an average defender (he clearly doesn't try as much as he should).  Thomas tries a lot more defensively, but his size is a definite impediment and that will always limit his defensive effectiveness.

When you couple in that Irving's contract has the ability for Boston to avoid the tax in the 18-19 season, he is younger, and has more defensive potential, I think you make the trade if you are Boston.  What I don't think you do is give up Thomas and a prime pick.  I think something like Thomas, Crowder, and Rozier for Irving makes sense for both teams and would generally be a fair trade.  If they wanted Boston's 2018 1st, I wouldn't make that a deal breaker either, but given the Cavs shave 3.8 million from their payroll (which is like 10 million with the tax), I think they should be ok without the 1st, especially if it leads to them dumping someone like Felder for a protected 2nd round pick or something (to save them even more money).     

Excellent assessment of the situation. Can't disagree with anything there.

[CFAN38]

just a guess,


DA calls the Cavs and says

DA       " what do you guy need to get for Irving?"
Cavs   " what can you offer"
DA      " Smart + Crowder + Lakers first"
Cavs   likely say no

If they say yes then DA is on the phone looking for a team that wants Irving and has a players the celtics need.

I do not think DA will move assets along with IT for Irving but 100% can see him trying to land a talent as a 3rd team.

[bellerephon]

Cost is a big issue here. Kyrie is certainly a great offensive player but I'm not sure that simply switching him out for IT makes the Celts better. His age and contract are valuable, but is it worth IT, another good player, and a potential lottery pick? Seems like a lot to me.

[Moranis]

I just want everyone to remember that John Wall signed for 4/$170M. IT has his eyes set towards those numbers you can trust and believe that.

Keep that in mind while we shoot down Kyrie. Kyrie is at $18M, $20M and $21M (player option).

He isn't taking the player option, so for the next two seasons Kyrie is 38 million and Thomas will be like 38 million if he gets max (which isn't a guarantee).  Now obviously Kyrie's contract is better since Boston may be able to avoid the luxury tax next season with Kyrie and not with Thomas at max, which is a big plus, but that is really the only difference.

[nickagneta]

Being in the Cleveland area the last 4 years or so, I've seen a lot of Irving, including the last season before James.  The only person that can consistently stop Irving from getting off whatever shot he wants, is Irving.  What I mean is, he is pretty reckless with the ball.  He commits a lot of stupid turnovers (things like bouncing the ball off his foot).  He is perhaps the greatest ball handler the league has ever seen.  He ranks right up there with guys like Iverson in that regard, however unlike Iverson, he is an excellent shooter from every where on the court.  Although also unlike Iverson, he doesn't like contact, so he doesn't get to the line as much as you would expect for someone who drives as much as he does.  Tying into that recklessness is that Irving quite simply is not a very good decision maker or playmaker.  While no one can consistently stop him from getting to where he wants to go on the court, he often makes the wrong decision once he gets there.  He also doesn't have great vision and he is an average at best passer (for a PG).  One of the reasons the Cavs are so bad with Irving and without James on the floor is because Irving just isn't a great playmaker (while James is one of the best ever). 

That said, much of that also very much describes Thomas, however as a result of Thomas' size, he can be thwarted a lot easier than Irving can, especially against the better teams that you play multiple times in a row in the playoffs.  Also, while Irving rarely shows any interest in playing defense, when he tries he can at least be an average defender (he clearly doesn't try as much as he should).  Thomas tries a lot more defensively, but his size is a definite impediment and that will always limit his defensive effectiveness.

When you couple in that Irving's contract has the ability for Boston to avoid the tax in the 18-19 season, he is younger, and has more defensive potential, I think you make the trade if you are Boston.  What I don't think you do is give up Thomas and a prime pick.  I think something like Thomas, Crowder, and Rozier for Irving makes sense for both teams and would generally be a fair trade.  If they wanted Boston's 2018 1st, I wouldn't make that a deal breaker either, but given the Cavs shave 3.8 million from their payroll (which is like 10 million with the tax), I think they should be ok without the 1st, especially if it leads to them dumping someone like Felder for a protected 2nd round pick or something (to save them even more money).     

Excellent assessment of the situation. Can't disagree with ansything there.

IT doesn't avoid contact like Kyrie does and for that reason scores a good chunk of his points off free throws. IT is also a much better pick n roll player and better at finding the open man when he drives, probably because of better floor vision. Other than those points, I agree with what Moranis said.

[aingeforthree]

Cost is a big issue here. Kyrie is certainly a great offensive player but I'm not sure that simply switching him out for IT makes the Celts better. His age and contract are valuable, but is it worth IT, another good player, and a potential lottery pick? Seems like a lot to me.

Upgrade at PG with Irving > Thomas.

Immediately become favorites in the East.

Save money over the next two years.

No chance LeBron joins us with Kyrie here.....


That's a win all around IMO.

[td450]

Being in the Cleveland area the last 4 years or so, I've seen a lot of Irving, including the last season before James.  The only person that can consistently stop Irving from getting off whatever shot he wants, is Irving.  What I mean is, he is pretty reckless with the ball.  He commits a lot of stupid turnovers (things like bouncing the ball off his foot).  He is perhaps the greatest ball handler the league has ever seen.  He ranks right up there with guys like Iverson in that regard, however unlike Iverson, he is an excellent shooter from every where on the court.  Although also unlike Iverson, he doesn't like contact, so he doesn't get to the line as much as you would expect for someone who drives as much as he does.  Tying into that recklessness is that Irving quite simply is not a very good decision maker or playmaker.  While no one can consistently stop him from getting to where he wants to go on the court, he often makes the wrong decision once he gets there.  He also doesn't have great vision and he is an average at best passer (for a PG).  One of the reasons the Cavs are so bad with Irving and without James on the floor is because Irving just isn't a great playmaker (while James is one of the best ever). 

That said, much of that also very much describes Thomas, however as a result of Thomas' size, he can be thwarted a lot easier than Irving can, especially against the better teams that you play multiple times in a row in the playoffs.  Also, while Irving rarely shows any interest in playing defense, when he tries he can at least be an average defender (he clearly doesn't try as much as he should).  Thomas tries a lot more defensively, but his size is a definite impediment and that will always limit his defensive effectiveness.

When you couple in that Irving's contract has the ability for Boston to avoid the tax in the 18-19 season, he is younger, and has more defensive potential, I think you make the trade if you are Boston.  What I don't think you do is give up Thomas and a prime pick.  I think something like Thomas, Crowder, and Rozier for Irving makes sense for both teams and would generally be a fair trade.  If they wanted Boston's 2018 1st, I wouldn't make that a deal breaker either, but given the Cavs shave 3.8 million from their payroll (which is like 10 million with the tax), I think they should be ok without the 1st, especially if it leads to them dumping someone like Felder for a protected 2nd round pick or something (to save them even more money).     

Excellent assessment of the situation. Can't disagree with anything there.

While I agree with everything said here, either guy would also have to be the alpha dog for this team. I'm quite comfortable with IT, and very uncomfortable with Kyrie as a leader. I think it's pretty clear Kyrie's not a particularly rational guy, and I don't see how that works with a guy like Stevens.

IT is in place, and has successfully proven he can handle his role and relationship with the town and the organization. This also would not go down as a straight up, IT for Kyrie deal. I expect Ainge to try to leverage the situation to extract some value, but I really appreciate the culture the C's have, and I don't see Kyrie fitting into it at all.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

People seem to be forgetting that Kyrie had LeBron--aka The Greatest Player in the World--to help him out, while IT's biggest offensive "help" was Avery Bradley. Teams won't be shutting down IT with Hayward around.

You do realize that IT played with Demarcus Cousins in Sacramento, right? And he didn't look nearly as good doing it as Kyrie has looked being second fiddle to Lebron. 

Sure Cousins is no Lebron James, but he's still the best center in the game (arguably the best big man in the game, period).

Yeah, I realize that. But we were talking about how Irving and IT have fared in the playoffs, and in that situation, there's no comparison between how much help Irving has had and how much IT has had.

[Moranis]

Being in the Cleveland area the last 4 years or so, I've seen a lot of Irving, including the last season before James.  The only person that can consistently stop Irving from getting off whatever shot he wants, is Irving.  What I mean is, he is pretty reckless with the ball.  He commits a lot of stupid turnovers (things like bouncing the ball off his foot).  He is perhaps the greatest ball handler the league has ever seen.  He ranks right up there with guys like Iverson in that regard, however unlike Iverson, he is an excellent shooter from every where on the court.  Although also unlike Iverson, he doesn't like contact, so he doesn't get to the line as much as you would expect for someone who drives as much as he does.  Tying into that recklessness is that Irving quite simply is not a very good decision maker or playmaker.  While no one can consistently stop him from getting to where he wants to go on the court, he often makes the wrong decision once he gets there.  He also doesn't have great vision and he is an average at best passer (for a PG).  One of the reasons the Cavs are so bad with Irving and without James on the floor is because Irving just isn't a great playmaker (while James is one of the best ever). 

That said, much of that also very much describes Thomas, however as a result of Thomas' size, he can be thwarted a lot easier than Irving can, especially against the better teams that you play multiple times in a row in the playoffs.  Also, while Irving rarely shows any interest in playing defense, when he tries he can at least be an average defender (he clearly doesn't try as much as he should).  Thomas tries a lot more defensively, but his size is a definite impediment and that will always limit his defensive effectiveness.

When you couple in that Irving's contract has the ability for Boston to avoid the tax in the 18-19 season, he is younger, and has more defensive potential, I think you make the trade if you are Boston.  What I don't think you do is give up Thomas and a prime pick.  I think something like Thomas, Crowder, and Rozier for Irving makes sense for both teams and would generally be a fair trade.  If they wanted Boston's 2018 1st, I wouldn't make that a deal breaker either, but given the Cavs shave 3.8 million from their payroll (which is like 10 million with the tax), I think they should be ok without the 1st, especially if it leads to them dumping someone like Felder for a protected 2nd round pick or something (to save them even more money).     

Excellent assessment of the situation. Can't disagree with ansything there.

IT doesn't avoid contact like Kyrie does and for that reason scores a good chunk of his points off free throws. IT is also a much better pick n roll player and better at finding the open man when he drives, probably because of better floor vision. Other than those points, I agree with what Moranis said.

No question, they aren't the same player and didn't mean to imply they were.  They both do things better than the other.  Of course, with Thomas' size it might be a bit better if he avoided contact a bit more.  We are already seeing things like the hip injury which will only get worse as he ages if he doesn't tone back the contact some.

[aingeforthree]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

Nobody thinks they are similar defensively, or when it comes to rebounding. They think their similar offensively, but yet Kyrie has got him there as well.

Everyone takes Irving over IT4......this isn't a revelation or anything. It's a given because Irving is the superior player. He's 'way' better because of the size, defense, & his rebounding from that position.

Show me any actual data to back those claims up.

IT4 was better last year offensively, period. He scored more points at a higher efficiency, and it wasn't close. He had a higher assist rate, too. He was better offensively the year before that, too.

IT4 grabbed 2.7 rebounds in 34 minutes. Kyrie had 3.2 in 35 minutes. The year before they both averaged 3.0. Not exactly a big difference.

IT4 was a bottom-5 defender at PG. Kyrie was what, bottom-10?

IT4 had the better RPM, VORP, Win Shares, TS%, and his team won more games.

IT4 has played 10 more games per season for the last 6 years.

And yet, all I'm saying is that Irving isn't 'much' better. Rebounding: false. Height: yeah, he's taller, so what if it he still can't rebound, block shots, or defend a shoe? Defense? Marginal improvement by every available metric, completely canceled out on the other end. Winner? Never won more than 33 games w/o LeBron, and is quitting on a team where he won a title. Health? Missed more games by far.

Those aren't accurate stats at all.

One is five inches taller. Helps defensively and rebounding. So nothing false about that. It's 5 inches and a game called basketball (catered toward height). That's significant.

Also, can take the playoff hits better than Thomas.  He's proven it, while Thomas had one GREAT offensive year (ended in injury). Kyrie has been unstoppable since the beginning, and still is cheaper and 2-3 years younger.

Everyone including their mom takes Irving over Thomas on the basketball floor. Every single GM and coach in this league take Irving over Thomas if the choice is there.

Tough to debate that, isn't it ?

[iadera]

Danny did nothing in all high-expected trades, why in a world do we expect him to do something here?!

[Redz]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

Nobody thinks they are similar defensively, or when it comes to rebounding. They think their similar offensively, but yet Kyrie has got him there as well.

Everyone takes Irving over IT4......this isn't a revelation or anything. It's a given because Irving is the superior player. He's 'way' better because of the size, defense, & his rebounding from that position.

Show me any actual data to back those claims up.

IT4 was better last year offensively, period. He scored more points at a higher efficiency, and it wasn't close. He had a higher assist rate, too. He was better offensively the year before that, too.

IT4 grabbed 2.7 rebounds in 34 minutes. Kyrie had 3.2 in 35 minutes. The year before they both averaged 3.0. Not exactly a big difference.

IT4 was a bottom-5 defender at PG. Kyrie was what, bottom-10?

IT4 had the better RPM, VORP, Win Shares, TS%, and his team won more games.

IT4 has played 10 more games per season for the last 6 years.

And yet, all I'm saying is that Irving isn't 'much' better. Rebounding: false. Height: yeah, he's taller, so what if it he still can't rebound, block shots, or defend a shoe? Defense? Marginal improvement by every available metric, completely canceled out on the other end. Winner? Never won more than 33 games w/o LeBron, and is quitting on a team where he won a title. Health? Missed more games by far.

Those aren't accurate stats at all.

One is five inches taller. Helps defensively and rebounding. So nothing false about that. It's 5 inches and a game called basketball (catered toward height). That's significant.

Also, can take the playoff hits better than Thomas.  He's proven it, while Thomas had one GREAT offensive year (ended in injury). Kyrie has been unstoppable since the beginning, and still is cheaper and 2-3 years younger.

Everyone including their mom takes Irving over Thomas on the basketball floor. Every single GM and coach in this league take Irving over Thomas if the choice is there.

Tough to debate that, isn't it ?

[jambr380]

@aingeforthree

If we are talking just for this upcoming year, I think you are wrong. IT has more than proven he is as good or better than Irving when he is at his best. For a team like Cleveland, who may only have one more shot at a title, acquiring IT, Crowder, and a pick (not a good one) or Rozier for a very disgruntled Irving probably gives them a better chance at competing this year than they otherwise would have.

Now, if you are talking strictly about the future with age and contract, then you have a point. That definitely gives Irving the edge, but a package of IT and Crowder might actually be really attractive to Cleveland given the Lebron situation.

[aingeforthree]

I don't want IT4 gone by any means. But I make the deal if it's IT4, Crowder, and the Laker pick (Yabusele would be included to make $ work) for Irving.

Going forward with Irving, Hayward, and Horford is the way to go. It's rare you get a 25 yr old talent like Irving, extremely rare. They don't usually become available at 25.

[bellerephon]

I'm not sure how big of an upgrade it is. Kyrie is a big time offensive player and a defensive liability. The same is true of IT. Is Kyrie a big upgrade over IT on offense? I don't think so. He's younger, his contract situation is better, he's bigger, those are all things to his advantage. If you were talking a straight up trade or something with a late first round pick I could see it. But IT, a starter, and the Nets or LA pick? I think that's too much.