ESPN: Kyrie no longer wants to play w/ Lebron = reason for request. trade soon?

[jdz101]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

Nobody thinks they are similar defensively, or when it comes to rebounding. They think their similar offensively, but yet Kyrie has got him there as well.

Everyone takes Irving over IT4......this isn't a revelation or anything. It's a given because Irving is the superior player. He's 'way' better because of the size, defense, & his rebounding from that position.

Show me any actual data to back those claims up.

IT4 was better last year offensively, period. He scored more points at a higher efficiency, and it wasn't close. He had a higher assist rate, too. He was better offensively the year before that, too.

IT4 grabbed 2.7 rebounds in 34 minutes. Kyrie had 3.2 in 35 minutes. The year before they both averaged 3.0. Not exactly a big difference.

IT4 was a bottom-5 defender at PG. Kyrie was what, bottom-10?

IT4 had the better RPM, VORP, Win Shares, TS%, and his team won more games.

IT4 has played 10 more games per season for the last 6 years.

And yet, all I'm saying is that Irving isn't 'much' better. Rebounding: false. Height: yeah, he's taller, so what if it he still can't rebound, block shots, or defend a shoe? Defense? Marginal improvement by every available metric, completely canceled out on the other end. Winner? Never won more than 33 games w/o LeBron, and is quitting on a team where he won a title. Health? Missed more games by far.

Well said. TP.

[Csfan1984]

Am I the only one who wants Irving and feels you keep IT?

AB was 6'3 same height as Irving. Irving has a ton more offense so why not slot him at SG next to IT?

Trade Smart, Crowder, Morris and Lakers pick for Irving.

Starters=IT, Irving, Hayward, Horford, Baynes.
Bench=Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Theis, Zizic

[SHAQATTACK]

i doubt Cavs want to trade Irving to the Heat ,Celtics or Raptors or Wizzards...if they still are thinking Championships . 

[Somebody]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

Nobody thinks they are similar defensively, or when it comes to rebounding. They think their similar offensively, but yet Kyrie has got him there as well.

Everyone takes Irving over IT4......this isn't a revelation or anything. It's a given because Irving is the superior player. He's 'way' better because of the size, defense, & his rebounding from that position.

Show me any actual data to back those claims up.

IT4 was better last year offensively, period. He scored more points at a higher efficiency, and it wasn't close. He had a higher assist rate, too. He was better offensively the year before that, too.

IT4 grabbed 2.7 rebounds in 34 minutes. Kyrie had 3.2 in 35 minutes. The year before they both averaged 3.0. Not exactly a big difference.

IT4 was a bottom-5 defender at PG. Kyrie was what, bottom-10?

IT4 had the better RPM, VORP, Win Shares, TS%, and his team won more games.

IT4 has played 10 more games per season for the last 6 years.

And yet, all I'm saying is that Irving isn't 'much' better. Rebounding: false. Height: yeah, he's taller, so what if it he still can't rebound, block shots, or defend a shoe? Defense? Marginal improvement by every available metric, completely canceled out on the other end. Winner? Never won more than 33 games w/o LeBron, and is quitting on a team where he won a title. Health? Missed more games by far.

Well said. TP.

I'd go so far as to say IT is a better player than Irving is rn, it baffles me when Kyrie gets so much credit due to his handles (which are amazing don't get me wrong).

[RockinRyA]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

People seem to be forgetting that Kyrie had LeBron--aka The Greatest Player in the World--to help him out, while IT's biggest offensive "help" was Avery Bradley. Teams won't be shutting down IT with Hayward around.

You do realize that IT played with Demarcus Cousins in Sacramento, right? And he didn't look nearly as good doing it as Kyrie has looked being second fiddle to Lebron. 

Sure Cousins is no Lebron James, but he's still the best center in the game (arguably the best big man in the game, period).

And to me its not about shutting down IT, it's just about SLOWING down IT.  All you need to do is make sure he doesn't go off for 30+ and you're fine.  His defense is such a problem that for him to be a net positive, he needs to give you 29 points.  If you can slow him down enough to limit him to "only" 27 points, then he becomes an overall liability.

It's really only when he's exploding for those big  31+ point games that his offensive becomes significant enough to overcome his defensive, and at that point he really becomes a threat.

It's very hard for a 5'9" guy to go out and give you 28-29 points every single night, especially in the playoffs.  That's a difficult thing for a team to have to depend on getting night in, night out, for the next 3-4 years.  It's going to be even harder to expect that once Thomas reaches his 30s and slows down a step or two, because at that point his defense will get even worse then it already is - at least now he has quickness and athleticism on his side.

Kyie, due to his size, isn't likely to decline nearly as quickly as Thomas.  While Thomas is largely dependent on his quickness and explosiveness to get his shots off, Irving is more dependant on his size and skills - he's more like a 6'3" PG version of Carmelo.  Even as he reaches up in to his 30's he should still be able to utilize his size, ball handling and shooting skills to remain effective (e.g. Jamaal Crawford) while IT's game is likely going to fall off a cliff once he reaches 30-31 and starts to lose his athleticism.

That whole "drop off" of IT and Horford is something that I am very seriously concerned about right now.  This team as it stands only looks to have maybe 3 years of true competitiveness in it before the games of both Thomas and Horford fall off a cliff in the most dramatic way.  In 3 years IT will be around 31 years old and Horford will be around 34. You're not getting much out of those guys by that point, so you're basically resting all of your hopes on Gordon Hayward and a handful of prospects to develop and carry that team through the future.

Getting Kyrie makes our future outlook much more favorable in the long term.  Three years from now he'll still only be 28 years old - the same age Thomas is right now.  By then Brown will be 25, Tatum will be 24 (both should be starting to come in to their own), Hayward will be around 29.  That's a good core.

Sure, Kyrie looked better playing on a good team with Lebron than IT playing on a baaaad team with Cousins. But IT played better being the guy than Kyrie ever did.

Heck even guys at FTS arent sharing your delusion that he is a great focal point, losing record without Lebron in his career.

[gouki88]

Am I the only one who wants Irving and feels you keep IT?

AB was 6'3 same height as Irving. Irving has a ton more offense so why not slot him at SG next to IT?

Trade Smart, Crowder, Morris and Lakers pick for Irving.

Starters=IT, Irving, Hayward, Horford, Baynes.
Bench=Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Theis, Zizic

That's a very shallow team (3 rookies off the bench, 1 second year player and 1 third year player who has only played 113 games in his entire career), as well as the probably the worst defensive back-court in the NBA.

Sure, our starters would almost get to 100 points by themselves, but GSW, San Antonio and Houston would all cause us major headaches, not to mention Eastern teams with strong back-courts like Washington and Toronto.

I wouldn't do that either, way too heavy a reliance upon youth.

[KGBirdBias]

It's good talk and I started the thread but in the end I don't believe it will happen.

I can see it now that people are going to be very upset if IT signs a huge deal. I love IT's heart and he's a Celtic but I think a hometown discount is in order or I explore dealing him. Just my opinion.

[jbpats]

Kyrie is better than IT, I love IT but only homers would think otherwise.

The difference between the two is Kyrie tends to coast during the regular season, where in contrast IT plays his a$$ off.
Come playoff time the difference in the two players is obvious, Kyrie is a stud and IT 's size and defensive inefficiencies have a tendency to get exploited.. People also have to realize IT won't have Bradley on the defensive end this season to bail him out.
I think IT and Crowder and a later lottery pick or non lottery pick is fair, adding the Brooklyn pick is absurd. 

I am also of the mind set there is no way on Gods green earth they trade with Boston

[Vermont Green]

This comes down to who do you think will be the better player over the next say 3 years.  IT's hip really worries me so i am sure it would worry CLE too in any  trade considerations.

I guess my feeling is that Irving will be a modestly better player over the next 3 seasons so would be an upgrade over IT if you look at just that as a 1 for 1 swap (which an actual trade never would be).  But I don't see it as enough of an upgrade to warrant throwing in Crowder and a potential top 5 pick.  Part of my consideration is the risk to chemistry or continuity.  Any time you change your best player, it is going to take a while to establish a groove or rhythm.  It would be a small step back initially or hopefully at best a small step forward in the future.

I just don't see it happening.

[ThaPreacher]

What is the fascination with Kyrie?  Why do I feel there are 10 PGs in the league as good as him, including IT?

Kyrie is a phenomenal offensive player. I think he believes he's one of the best.
We might be witnessing the emergence. Kinda like when Harden went to the Rockets.
Who stops Kyrie?

If only we still had Bradley!  Bradley + Crowder plus picks. (non Brooklyn). lol

[Th3M2n]

Hell no...

[KGBirdBias]

I just want everyone to remember that John Wall signed for 4/$170M. IT has his eyes set towards those numbers you can trust and believe that.

Keep that in mind while we shoot down Kyrie. Kyrie is at $18M, $20M and $21M (player option).

[Moranis]

Being in the Cleveland area the last 4 years or so, I've seen a lot of Irving, including the last season before James.  The only person that can consistently stop Irving from getting off whatever shot he wants, is Irving.  What I mean is, he is pretty reckless with the ball.  He commits a lot of stupid turnovers (things like bouncing the ball off his foot).  He is perhaps the greatest ball handler the league has ever seen.  He ranks right up there with guys like Iverson in that regard, however unlike Iverson, he is an excellent shooter from every where on the court.  Although also unlike Iverson, he doesn't like contact, so he doesn't get to the line as much as you would expect for someone who drives as much as he does.  Tying into that recklessness is that Irving quite simply is not a very good decision maker or playmaker.  While no one can consistently stop him from getting to where he wants to go on the court, he often makes the wrong decision once he gets there.  He also doesn't have great vision and he is an average at best passer (for a PG).  One of the reasons the Cavs are so bad with Irving and without James on the floor is because Irving just isn't a great playmaker (while James is one of the best ever). 

That said, much of that also very much describes Thomas, however as a result of Thomas' size, he can be thwarted a lot easier than Irving can, especially against the better teams that you play multiple times in a row in the playoffs.  Also, while Irving rarely shows any interest in playing defense, when he tries he can at least be an average defender (he clearly doesn't try as much as he should).  Thomas tries a lot more defensively, but his size is a definite impediment and that will always limit his defensive effectiveness.

When you couple in that Irving's contract has the ability for Boston to avoid the tax in the 18-19 season, he is younger, and has more defensive potential, I think you make the trade if you are Boston.  What I don't think you do is give up Thomas and a prime pick.  I think something like Thomas, Crowder, and Rozier for Irving makes sense for both teams and would generally be a fair trade.  If they wanted Boston's 2018 1st, I wouldn't make that a deal breaker either, but given the Cavs shave 3.8 million from their payroll (which is like 10 million with the tax), I think they should be ok without the 1st, especially if it leads to them dumping someone like Felder for a protected 2nd round pick or something (to save them even more money).     

[PAOBoston]

I think it's far more likely Ainge called about being a 3rd team in a trade that sends Irving elsewhere than for a trade to bring Irving to Boston.

[Somebody]

Being in the Cleveland area the last 4 years or so, I've seen a lot of Irving, including the last season before James.  The only person that can consistently stop Irving from getting off whatever shot he wants, is Irving.  What I mean is, he is pretty reckless with the ball.  He commits a lot of stupid turnovers (things like bouncing the ball off his foot).  He is perhaps the greatest ball handler the league has ever seen.  He ranks right up there with guys like Iverson in that regard, however unlike Iverson, he is an excellent shooter from every where on the court.  Although also unlike Iverson, he doesn't like contact, so he doesn't get to the line as much as you would expect for someone who drives as much as he does.  Tying into that recklessness is that Irving quite simply is not a very good decision maker or playmaker.  While no one can consistently stop him from getting to where he wants to go on the court, he often makes the wrong decision once he gets there.  He also doesn't have great vision and he is an average at best passer (for a PG).  One of the reasons the Cavs are so bad with Irving and without James on the floor is because Irving just isn't a great playmaker (while James is one of the best ever). 

That said, much of that also very much describes Thomas, however as a result of Thomas' size, he can be thwarted a lot easier than Irving can, especially against the better teams that you play multiple times in a row in the playoffs.  Also, while Irving rarely shows any interest in playing defense, when he tries he can at least be an average defender (he clearly doesn't try as much as he should).  Thomas tries a lot more defensively, but his size is a definite impediment and that will always limit his defensive effectiveness.

When you couple in that Irving's contract has the ability for Boston to avoid the tax in the 18-19 season, he is younger, and has more defensive potential, I think you make the trade if you are Boston.  What I don't think you do is give up Thomas and a prime pick.  I think something like Thomas, Crowder, and Rozier for Irving makes sense for both teams and would generally be a fair trade.  If they wanted Boston's 2018 1st, I wouldn't make that a deal breaker either, but given the Cavs shave 3.8 million from their payroll (which is like 10 million with the tax), I think they should be ok without the 1st, especially if it leads to them dumping someone like Felder for a protected 2nd round pick or something (to save them even more money).     

From what I can see Kyrie is absolute Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. at playmaking, I was so mad during the finals when he couldn't even run a basic pick and roll. On the other hand, IT is pretty good in this regard although he doesn't show it much. Call me old school but I prefer PGs that can actually run plays for his teammates. Not to say Kyrie is bad, he's amazing but I prefer IT.