ESPN: Kyrie no longer wants to play w/ Lebron = reason for request. trade soon?

[aingeforthree]

The only thing I haven't heard is...Kyrie is younger and isn't due for a contract for 2 years. That's the biggest reason to think about a deal.

IT has a Celtics mentality and I'm just interested to see what people think when it comes contract time. Are the Celtics going to pay two 30 year olds $23M+ for the next 3 years?

That and Kyrie is a far better player than IT4. Plays better defense & will rebound. IT4 can't & doesn't do either.

[Scintan]

The only thing I haven't heard is...Kyrie is younger and isn't due for a contract for 2 years. That's the biggest reason to think about a deal.

IT has a Celtics mentality and I'm just interested to see what people think when it comes contract time. Are the Celtics going to pay two 30 year olds $23M+ for the next 3 years?

Take IT's money from this year, and add it to what he'd be looking at for the first year of a new contract, and you get his two year total. 

Match that up against Irving's next two years.

[byennie]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

Are you guys seriously going to ignore the fact that Lebron was on court with the "unstoppable" Irving? 

IT was the only Real offensive option when he was "Stopped."   (Sully was trash, Turner was struggling, Bradly and Crowder were both dealing with injuries)

It's so hard to compare based on rosters, LeBron, etc.

So are you saying you'd take IT4 over Irving ? I haven't met a person who takes that.

I don't think anyone here is saying IT4 > Irving on the court. The objection is to the idea of IT, Crowder and a BKN pick... or any number of people saying that Irving is WAY better than IT.

[RockinRyA]

Kyrie is younger, slightly better defender, slightly better on-ball scorer. IT is a better Off-Ball scorer, better team player. IT has at least shown he can carry a team, Kyrie has not. Losing seasons without Lebron and bad record without Lebron after he joined.

[tarheelsxxiii]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

Are you guys seriously going to ignore the fact that Lebron was on court with the "unstoppable" Irving? 

IT was the only Real offensive option when he was "Stopped."   (Sully was trash, Turner was struggling, Bradly and Crowder were both dealing with injuries)

It's so hard to compare based on rosters, LeBron, etc.

So are you saying you'd take IT4 over Irving ? I haven't met a person who takes that.

I don't think anyone here is saying IT4 > Irving on the court. The objection is to the idea of IT, Crowder and a BKN pick... or any number of people saying that Irving is WAY better than IT.

I haven't read the thread, but an argument can easily be made that IT4 > Kyrie.  IT4 just happens to be arguably the least respected Celtic of all-time because casual fans are unable to appreciate what he brings to the table. 

[Ilikesports17]

The only thing I haven't heard is...Kyrie is younger and isn't due for a contract for 2 years. That's the biggest reason to think about a deal.

IT has a Celtics mentality and I'm just interested to see what people think when it comes contract time. Are the Celtics going to pay two 30 year olds $23M+ for the next 3 years?

Take IT's money from this year, and add it to what he'd be looking at for the first year of a new contract, and you get his two year total. 

Match that up against Irving's next two years.

Presence of luxury tax makes it more complicated than that.

[byennie]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

Are you guys seriously going to ignore the fact that Lebron was on court with the "unstoppable" Irving? 

IT was the only Real offensive option when he was "Stopped."   (Sully was trash, Turner was struggling, Bradly and Crowder were both dealing with injuries)

It's so hard to compare based on rosters, LeBron, etc.

So are you saying you'd take IT4 over Irving ? I haven't met a person who takes that.

I don't think anyone here is saying IT4 > Irving on the court. The objection is to the idea of IT, Crowder and a BKN pick... or any number of people saying that Irving is WAY better than IT.

I haven't read the thread, but an argument can easily be made that IT4 > Kyrie.  IT4 just happens to be arguably the least respected Celtic of all-time because casual fans are unable to appreciate what he brings to the table.

I agree, but that's what is so crazy here. The topic is starting with "is Irving worth IT, Crowder AND A BROOKLYN pick?", and has multiple people saying Irving is much better. They are comparable players, so obviously we aren't throwing in a pick we wouldn't trade for Jimmy Butler.

[tarheelsxxiii]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

Are you guys seriously going to ignore the fact that Lebron was on court with the "unstoppable" Irving? 

IT was the only Real offensive option when he was "Stopped."   (Sully was trash, Turner was struggling, Bradly and Crowder were both dealing with injuries)

It's so hard to compare based on rosters, LeBron, etc.

So are you saying you'd take IT4 over Irving ? I haven't met a person who takes that.

I don't think anyone here is saying IT4 > Irving on the court. The objection is to the idea of IT, Crowder and a BKN pick... or any number of people saying that Irving is WAY better than IT.

I haven't read the thread, but an argument can easily be made that IT4 > Kyrie.  IT4 just happens to be arguably the least respected Celtic of all-time because casual fans are unable to appreciate what he brings to the table.

I agree, but that's what is so crazy here. The topic is starting with "is Irving worth IT, Crowder AND A BROOKLYN pick?", and has multiple people saying Irving is much better. They are comparable players, so obviously we aren't throwing in a pick we wouldn't trade for Jimmy Butler.

Exactly, that would never happen.  I respect both as great players, but Ainge has been careful-to-stingy in all other trade offers (Butler, George, etc).  No reason to believe he'd changed that approach now for another (albeit elite) backcourt player. 

[aingeforthree]

One is still unstoppable when you get to the playoffs and face Bradley-like defending. One gets shut down with good coaching and defending come playoff time.

I was literally just about to post the same thing. While they're equal offensive players in the regular season, in the playoffs Isaiah is shutdownable/houndable.

Are you guys seriously going to ignore the fact that Lebron was on court with the "unstoppable" Irving? 

IT was the only Real offensive option when he was "Stopped."   (Sully was trash, Turner was struggling, Bradly and Crowder were both dealing with injuries)

It's so hard to compare based on rosters, LeBron, etc.

So are you saying you'd take IT4 over Irving ? I haven't met a person who takes that.

I don't think anyone here is saying IT4 > Irving on the court. The objection is to the idea of IT, Crowder and a BKN pick... or any number of people saying that Irving is WAY better than IT.

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

[byennie]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

[aingeforthree]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

Nobody thinks they are similar defensively, or when it comes to rebounding. They think their similar offensively, but yet Kyrie has got him there as well.

Everyone takes Irving over IT4......this isn't a revelation or anything. It's a given because Irving is the superior player. He's 'way' better because of the size, defense, & his rebounding from that position.

[Scintan]

The only thing I haven't heard is...Kyrie is younger and isn't due for a contract for 2 years. That's the biggest reason to think about a deal.

IT has a Celtics mentality and I'm just interested to see what people think when it comes contract time. Are the Celtics going to pay two 30 year olds $23M+ for the next 3 years?

Take IT's money from this year, and add it to what he'd be looking at for the first year of a new contract, and you get his two year total. 

Match that up against Irving's next two years.

Presence of luxury tax makes it more complicated than that.

Not in the slightest.  It's just a straightforward question and comparison.

[gouki88]

The only thing I haven't heard is...Kyrie is younger and isn't due for a contract for 2 years. That's the biggest reason to think about a deal.

IT has a Celtics mentality and I'm just interested to see what people think when it comes contract time. Are the Celtics going to pay two 30 year olds $23M+ for the next 3 years?

That and Kyrie is a far better player than IT4. Plays better defense & will rebound. IT4 can't & doesn't do either.

He is not a far better player, LOL

That 0.8 of a rebound more really makes up for the less efficient and volumous scoring and the effectively identical playmaking and defence.

And Kyries defence is only slightly less shocking than IT's, with literally the only difference being size, not effort nor ability.

So yeah, not buying Kyrie being a better player at all, let alone a "far better" player.

[Somebody]

What is the fascination with Kyrie?  Why do I feel there are 10 PGs in the league as good as him, including IT?

I guess you were sleepwalking when kyrie dropped 42 against the Celts

I guess you were sleeping under a literal rock when IT had a better season than Kyrie

[byennie]

But he is way better than IT4 ? What's wrong with just saying it ? That's why everyone on here would take him over IT4 all darn day.

Also, he's a big time bargain which is huge right now.

Obviously not everyone thinks he's "way better". Many of us think they are pretty darn similar, and thus would rather stick with the hometown guy. As far as I'm concerned, Irving is the DeMarcus Cousins of point guards - crazy talented but clearly not making the most of it or carrying a team.

Nobody thinks they are similar defensively, or when it comes to rebounding. They think their similar offensively, but yet Kyrie has got him there as well.

Everyone takes Irving over IT4......this isn't a revelation or anything. It's a given because Irving is the superior player. He's 'way' better because of the size, defense, & his rebounding from that position.

Show me any actual data to back those claims up.

IT4 was better last year offensively, period. He scored more points at a higher efficiency, and it wasn't close. He had a higher assist rate, too. He was better offensively the year before that, too.

IT4 grabbed 2.7 rebounds in 34 minutes. Kyrie had 3.2 in 35 minutes. The year before they both averaged 3.0. Not exactly a big difference.

IT4 was a bottom-5 defender at PG. Kyrie was what, bottom-10?

IT4 had the better RPM, VORP, Win Shares, TS%, and his team won more games.

IT4 has played 10 more games per season for the last 6 years.

And yet, all I'm saying is that Irving isn't 'much' better. Rebounding: false. Height: yeah, he's taller, so what if it he still can't rebound, block shots, or defend a shoe? Defense? Marginal improvement by every available metric, completely canceled out on the other end. Winner? Never won more than 33 games w/o LeBron, and is quitting on a team where he won a title. Health? Missed more games by far.