I'd rather have Griffin

[Erik]

If I had to pick between Hayward and Griffin, I'd rather have Griffin.

For two reasons:
1) Jae Crowder.

I'm honestly puzzled that our fans are so blatantly disrespectful towards someone as good as Jae Crowder. I read a thread here that people were in agreement that if we sign Hayward and Crowder is upset, we move him. What?

Let me point out a few things: Jae Crowder played just as well as Gordon Hayward offensively this year, and much better defensively. If the Celtics sign Hayward, Jae Crowder is most likely gone, most likely for a future first round draft pick.

Let's look first at shooting the ball:

Player	FG%	3P%	2P%	FT%	TS%
Hayward	47.1%	39.8%	50.6%	84.4%	59.5%
Crowder	46.3%	39.8%	54%	81.1%	62.8%

   

Percentage wise, it's a statistical wash.

Where Hayward shines is due to usage. He's the #1 option on his team. While an argument can be made that people focus more on him as the #1 option, it's obvious that he would not be putting up the same usage numbers in Boston as he did in Utah, on a much more stacked team. It's the Chris Bosh / Kevin Love effect.

Let's now look at Real Plus Minus

Player	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WINS
Hayward	3.14	-0.08	3.06	9.45
Crowder	2.20	1.69	3.89	10.52

Finally, let's look at salary. Jae Crowder is locked in for 3 years for $21,917,475. That's $8,382,525 less than we will have to pay Hayward for one year. How much do we want to overpay? I think Crowder/Brown is great depth at SF already.

2) There is a common puzzle that you give 2 year olds. You hand them an object with a hole in it and the piece that completes it and see if they can figure it out.

We have a glaring hole in our lineup. It's at the PF position. Blake Griffin is a PF. Fill the hole.

The amount of upgrade Blake Griffin is to Amir Johnson compared to Gordon Hayward to Jae Crowder is absurd.

[droopdog7]

Not even close.  Griffin is a walking injury.  That likely will not get better as he ages.

[loco_91]

I agree with the punchline, but Hayward is a way better offensive player than Crowder. Crowder gets tons of open 3's or closeout drives off ball movement and IT kick-outs. Hayward manufactures offense and takes harder shots. Stats don't really tell that story.

But yeah, I agree it's ridiculous the amount of disrespect Crowder gets. He's good. I just think that those guys will coexist no problem. Hayward is a huge upgrade over Gerald Green/Terry Rozier/Jonas Jerebko.

[droopdog7]

Stop looking at stats.  Hayward is significantly better player than Jae.

[Celtics18]

Me too.

[Erik]

Not even close.  Griffin is a walking injury.  That likely will not get better as he ages.

A guy who has played 82% of games is a walking injury? Are you talking about Blake Griffin or Greg Oden? If you remove the season that he broke his hand due to off court drama, it's 88.6%.

I agree with the punchline, but Hayward is a way better offensive player than Crowder. Crowder gets tons of open 3's or closeout drives off ball movement and IT kick-outs. Hayward manufactures offense and takes harder shots. Stats don't really tell that story.

But yeah, I agree it's ridiculous the amount of disrespect Crowder gets. He's good. I just think that those guys will coexist no problem. Hayward is a huge upgrade over Gerald Green/Terry Rozier/Jonas Jerebko.

You can't really look at two different teams with two different scheme and say that 1 player couldn't perform in the other player's environment. Crowder's opportunities you describe come... because that is the Celtics' offense. Unless we're removing IT and the PnR offense, Hayward will do the exact same thing.

Stop looking at stats.  Hayward is significantly better player than Jae.

You know what stats are good for? Removing bias. Which one of Crowder or Hayward are going to be boxing out Markieff Morris or Tristan Thompson when you move them to the 4? Which one is going to guard slow down LeBron James?

While I agree that Hayward is the better player, his price tag given our sweetheart deal with Crowder doesn't justify the cost.

[Roy H.]

Let me point out a few things: Jae Crowder played just as well as Gordon Hayward offensively this year, and much better defensively.

I stopped reading there. There's having an opinion, and then there's making obviously wrong claims.

[Erik]

Let me point out a few things: Jae Crowder played just as well as Gordon Hayward offensively this year, and much better defensively.

I stopped reading there. There's having an opinion, and then there's making obviously wrong claims.

It's a shame. Maybe you would have seen the evidence to support the claim.

I just cannot understand someone not understanding that Crowder+Griffin is better than Hayward.

[Celtics18]

Let me point out a few things: Jae Crowder played just as well as Gordon Hayward offensively this year, and much better defensively.

I stopped reading there. There's having an opinion, and then there's making obviously wrong claims.

It's a shame. Maybe you would have seen the evidence to support the claim.

I just cannot understand someone not understanding that Crowder+Griffin is better than Hayward.

I agree that Griffin is better than Hayward.  Obviously it follows, then, that Griffin and Crowder are better than Hayward.

I do not agree that Crowder is better than Hayward.

[dreamgreen]

Griffin would be a better choice/fit if he could stay healthy but that is a big IF!

But Crowder is no where near Hayward. Hayward is better in every way, he's an all start in the west and getting better. Crowder is a bench player on a good team!

[Roy H.]

Let me point out a few things: Jae Crowder played just as well as Gordon Hayward offensively this year, and much better defensively.

I stopped reading there. There's having an opinion, and then there's making obviously wrong claims.

It's a shame. Maybe you would have seen the evidence to support the claim.

I just cannot understand someone not understanding that Crowder+Griffin is better than Hayward.

It's a valid opinion to prefer Griffin.

It's not valid to argue that Crowder is better than Hayward, which is the only conclusion one can make if Crowder is equal in offense and much better on defense.

[Dino Pitino]

2) There is a common puzzle that you give 2 year olds. You hand them an object with a hole in it and the piece that completes it and see if they can figure it out.

We have a glaring hole in our lineup. It's at the PF position. Blake Griffin is a PF. Fill the hole.

The amount of upgrade Blake Griffin is to Amir Johnson compared to Gordon Hayward to Jae Crowder is absurd.

TP, especially for the last point, which I said here last night. Hayward is a nice upgrade over Crowder. Griffin is a HUGE upgrade over Amir.

[Smartacus]

I feel kind of dirty but I'm on board the Griffin train.

There are certain moments and factors that can completely change my perception of a player. Going into last year's draft I didn't like Jaylen up until the very moment we drafted him. The second it became real I resigned myself to the fact that if Brad and DA feel like this kid can play then I trust them and welcome home Mr Brown.

If the news that Griffin is really considering the Celtics for legacy reasons is true, then suddenly a guy who has lived in the spotlight, a player I've always regarded and more flash than function turns into a dynamic offensive talent who wants to put his skills to the test on the biggest stage. I can respect that.

Griffin would also add a significant degree of force to our attack. We have speed, we have shooting, we can get down in the defensive stance and cut off angles. But Blake Griffin would bring a level of explosion to our team that no one outside of Jaylen even comes close to scratching. I'm all for it. Bring on the Griff.

[Billz401]

What about playoff stats? Hayward had pretty good stats in these past playoffs while Crowder seemed to regress from his regular season stats. At this point I feel like we should be in the playoffs pretty consistently for some years and I want someone who will perform when counted on. I didn't feel like Jae performed as well as I would have liked him to these past playoffs. Hayward can also create his own offense while Crowder relied on IT kickouts for wide open shots all game

[SCBirdman]

If I had to pick between Hayward and Griffin, I'd rather have Griffin.

For two reasons:
1) Jae Crowder.

I'm honestly puzzled that our fans are so blatantly disrespectful towards someone as good as Jae Crowder. I read a thread here that people were in agreement that if we sign Hayward and Crowder is upset, we move him. What?

Let me point out a few things: Jae Crowder played just as well as Gordon Hayward offensively this year, and much better defensively. If the Celtics sign Hayward, Jae Crowder is most likely gone, most likely for a future first round draft pick.

Let's look first at shooting the ball:

Player	FG%	3P%	2P%	FT%	TS%
Hayward	47.1%	39.8%	50.6%	84.4%	59.5%
Crowder	46.3%	39.8%	54%	81.1%	62.8%

   

Percentage wise, it's a statistical wash.

Where Hayward shines is due to usage. He's the #1 option on his team. While an argument can be made that people focus more on him as the #1 option, it's obvious that he would not be putting up the same usage numbers in Boston as he did in Utah, on a much more stacked team. It's the Chris Bosh / Kevin Love effect.

Let's now look at Real Plus Minus

Player	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WINS
Hayward	3.14	-0.08	3.06	9.45
Crowder	2.20	1.69	3.89	10.52

Finally, let's look at salary. Jae Crowder is locked in for 3 years for $21,917,475. That's $8,382,525 less than we will have to pay Hayward for one year. How much do we want to overpay? I think Crowder/Brown is great depth at SF already.

2) There is a common puzzle that you give 2 year olds. You hand them an object with a hole in it and the piece that completes it and see if they can figure it out.

We have a glaring hole in our lineup. It's at the PF position. Blake Griffin is a PF. Fill the hole.

The amount of upgrade Blake Griffin is to Amir Johnson compared to Gordon Hayward to Jae Crowder is absurd.

I agree on Griffin, but you confound your point by pointing out that Hayward is the No. 1 option. Therefore, the factt hat his shooting percentage is what it is, is more impressive that Crowder who gets a ton of open looks because he is not the priority of the defense. 

I do think Crowder can defend the 4 and play 4 in a small ball lineup. Griffin is ideal replacing Amir in the starting lineup. More interior scoring, more rebounding, more spectacular dunks, netter interior defense.

The rub is, can Blake stay healthy and play in 70 plus reg season games plus ALL of the playoffs.